Bronx 2nd on Decatur Av

[ny10570 745]

http://www.thebravest.com/FDNYNewsArchive/10/03/5g.htm

Thank god she was there. Eng 79 was in a panic trying to figure out what the fire wouldn't turn off before she made an incredibly astute observation.

[99subi 121]

deres no wadaa dere . dere no wada

[Danger 160]

Just got word from the Vulcans that she starts on Monday

[99subi 121]

^^ hahahah wouldn't be surprised

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Very interesting video, thanks for bringing it forward NY10570. I wish the camera had stayed at the back step, because I would have liked to have seen what the members did next, after stretching the initial 1 3/4" (or is it a 2 1/2") attack line into the fire structure.

Question for our FDNY members; would the next handline have come off the first due engine, or the second? It looked like a couple of companies were at the back step of the first due.

Question for all our members; If you were the officer in charge at this point in the attack, where would you order the SECOND handline be deployed? To back-up the first, into the D exposure now involved in fire, IFO the alleyway to knock down the fire in between the structures, or someplace else?

Remember you have a truck company inside the fire structure. Where is your next truck company going to go?

What else do you need to think of?

Let's hear some tactics!

[Mac8146 61]

If you look carefully you see 2 handlines being stretched off E-79 both look like 1 3/4 lines. You can have 2 lines off 1 pumper. The newer 2000 gpm pumpers can handle more than 2 lines if needed, it is always a good idea to have another pumper ready to supply handlines in case of pump failure or hydrant issues.

Cannot tell from video if fire was in a building and spread to exposure or if fire started between buildings, if in a building the first line goes to the fire, the second could be used to give a quick exterior knockdown before advancing into the exposure being careful not to put any water into the original fire building, this could cause problems for members on first handline. It appears that the fire had already extended into the exposure so getting the line into this building was necessary. Ok so 1st line into original building 2nd line to exposure and if possible charge in street to knock down auto exposure otherwise in building, additional lines will be stretched to the area between buildings and other exposures.

1st truck has original fire building, 2nd due should take the exposure in this scenario due to rapid extension of fire. Additional trucks will be used in both buildings to assist.

From what i heard this fire was quickly contained and extinguished with no other extension to any buildings.

[antiquefirelt 994]

If you look carefully you see 2 handlines being stretched off E-79 both look like 1 3/4 lines. You can have 2 lines off 1 pumper. The newer 2000 gpm pumpers can handle more than 2 lines if needed, it is always a good idea to have another pumper ready to supply handlines in case of pump failure or hydrant issues.

We subscribe to the same theory of two lines from the one engine max, but it has little to do with pump capacity. Our 1250 gpm pumps could supply 5-6 1.75" handlines where the hydrant system supports it. The issue is over reliance on one hydrant, one hydrant line, one pump, and one pump operator. A failure of any of these things will affect everyone connected to that pump. While it would be nice to always stretch the second line from a separate engine (in case two lines are needed) in reality the first two invariably end up off the first due 95% of the time. Subsequent lines require a separate source.

[turk132 9]

Had a fire years ago, same situation ( actually same street a block or 2 north), two frames, heavy fire between both. 1st engine strecthed into buidling on left. As 2nd due we stretched 2 1/2 to knock down fire between buildings. Fire did extend into both buildings but the main body of fire was between the buildings.It took a while to knock the fire down because it was front to back and top to bottom in the alley. Lines in the building will control the extension but the fire in between will kept burning unless addressed.The sooner the better. The 3rd line covered the building on the right. Depending on the situation, amount of fire, rescue,ladder Co. placement, etc, lining up the deck pipe with the alley and dropping the booster is a good move. Did that at a fire also with good success. JMO

[M' Ave 1,466]

Question for our FDNY members; would the next handline have come off the first due engine, or the second? It looked like a couple of companies were at the back step of the first due.

Two companies for each line is another thing you might have seen. First due, first line. Second due assists with the stretch of the 1st.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Two companies for each line is another thing you might have seen. First due, first line. Second due assists with the stretch of the 1st.

So you're committing between 6-8 firefighters to the first line? Huh, must be pretty important to get water on the fire!

I like to use you guys (FDNY) as an example when teaching/speaking about the importance of the first line. If FDNY uses the first two engines to ensure placement of the first line, why are much less staffed FD's stretching multiple lines before the first is even flowing? Far too often we see small career, combo or volunteer FD's assign two firefighters to the the first line. These guys beat themselves up in good shape if the fire is above the first floor and around ore than one corner from the entrance door, yet helping this line becomes secondary to the "all important" back-up line, who by now is more likely to be needed.

[dillondotcom 16]

First line is very important. Usually 1st and 2nd due will place 1st line. 3rd due engine will then stretch the second line.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

So you're committing between 6-8 firefighters to the first line? Huh, must be pretty important to get water on the fire!

I like to use you guys (FDNY) as an example when teaching/speaking about the importance of the first line. If FDNY uses the first two engines to ensure placement of the first line, why are much less staffed FD's stretching multiple lines before the first is even flowing? Far too often we see small career, combo or volunteer FD's assign two firefighters to the the first line. These guys beat themselves up in good shape if the fire is above the first floor and around ore than one corner from the entrance door, yet helping this line becomes secondary to the "all important" back-up line, who by now is more likely to be needed.

Chief, how do you do it Rockland? What is your company staffing? Thanks in advance.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Chief, how do you do it Rockland? What is your company staffing? Thanks in advance.

"Company Staffing" is really not a reality for us. Our shifts run 6 on duty during the day and 5 at night. First due apparatus for the shift are our Squad, Tower and one rescue (ambulance). Call members and off duty personnel respond a second engine on all first alarms. All duty personnel are assigned duties per their seating assignment which includes tool assignment and fireground function.

Basically the first arriving personnel focus on stretching the first line and making the primary search. Of course the difficulty is prioritizing functions, which most often has to be done by the initial IC. Rescue and and fire confinement are at the top of the list and the IC must determine if he can complete both at once or needs to focus on one or the other.

We'd be fooling ourselves to think we could meet 1710/1720 but that is of course the goal of all our personnel from the call division to the Union through the Chief of Dept. Right now, keeping what we have is the best we can do with some slight hope for the future. We've had 4 personnel leave in the past 12 months and we've been very relieved that we were allowed to fill those slots without to much hassle.

On Wed. I worked an OT slot and the shift consisted of myself, one lieutenant, one EMS only medic(4 months on), one firefighter (with 4 months on here)and a guy working his first day as a firefighter. After a few BS runs, we had a cardiac arrest that we all ran on. While working the code, we got tapped for structure fire. In the meantime another of our newbie's had arrived at the EMS run to assist, and the Lt and I had to take the fire alone, with the recalled crew who had just be toned out to report to the station. Long story bearable, 1st floor room and contents fire in brand new 1400 foot modular cape, searched and extinguished with 6 personnel onscene. Meanwhile our four newest personnel missed their first working fire, but actually had a code save so all wasn't lost. Problem was the City Council loves that crap. Talk about more with less! They won't understand the little girl who discovered the fire and closed the door to the bedroom before grabbing her little brother and getting out had more to do with saving the house and occupants than we did. Without that door closed we'd have needed a lot more help of which was not within 8 minutes of arrival!

[Mac8146 61]

Due to length of stretches required into our multiple dwellings we pair the first and second due engines to get the 1st line into operation whether they are 4or5man units they pair up. In the situation on Decatur short stretches due to frame buildings 3story it may be 1st engine 1st line 2nd engine 2nd line due to amount of fire. We also pair up engines in high rise due to need for 4 or more lengths depending on building. In my area some stretches require 14 to 16 lengths to reach fire, we average 8 to 10 lengths and this depends on floor fire is on, access to entrance, distance from courtyard into entrance, size of building and so on. We have some buildings that require all first alarm engines to assist in placing 1st line into operation.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Mac8146

[M' Ave 1,466]

Due to length of stretches required into our multiple dwellings we pair the first and second due engines to get the 1st line into operation whether they are 4or5man units they pair up. In the situation on Decatur short stretches due to frame buildings 3story it may be 1st engine 1st line 2nd engine 2nd line due to amount of fire. We also pair up engines in high rise due to need for 4 or more lengths depending on building. In my area some stretches require 14 to 16 lengths to reach fire, we average 8 to 10 lengths and this depends on floor fire is on, access to entrance, distance from courtyard into entrance, size of building and so on. We have some buildings that require all first alarm engines to assist in placing 1st line into operation.

Good point, thanks Lieu. Don't have a great deal of PDs down south so I really don't have any experience to speak of there. We do talk about it, along with the neighboring Eng. Co's. Everyone seems pretty on board with the 2nd due stretching, unless there is an unusually long distance for the first line. For all the old laws, H Types and the Brownstones, I've seen 8-10 just about everytime and some up to 15 lengths.

[16fire5 693]

A lot of good points were made. Judging by the length of stretch and the position of the engine the companies may very well have operated alone. From what I see the first line when into the white PD. I think charging the second line in the street and trying to knock down some exterior fire and then into exposure 4 would be a good move. If I was stretching inside I would stick with 1 3/4" lines. The speed and manuverability are real important in PDs. I would guess that the line that goes into exposure 4 will probably need to address fire comming through a couple of windows and being able to move quickly is important. A 2 1/2" operated from the street along the exterior would be helpful but disipline is required so the line is not directed into any windows. The exposure problem is going to continue until the first line starts hitting the seat of the fire. Also if there are people trapped in the original fire building the possibility exists that the second line will be required there since it's entirely possible the first line will be committed to the first floor.

One thing that I would add is if the engine at this fire had been forced to backstretch because of hydrant positioning a real heads up move would be to drop the second line in the street.