Firefighters Under 18 - Training and Legalities

[tonyc856 16]

Just a few quick things to help here

1) Yes because Volunteers get VFBL (because it is under the workers comp law), the Dept of Labor sees them as employees

2) Jr firefighters and Explorers are two very different groups. Jr firefighters are members of fire companies ages 16-18. They are covered under VFBL and so the are also covered under the Labor Laws. Explorers (Venturing) are non-members of fire compaines who are under the guidelines of the Boy Scouts, are from the age of 14 to 21 and are sponsered by a fire company. They are not covered under VFBL or NY State Labor Laws. Both groups are very different in what they can and canot do because of this difference.

3) OFPC allows Jr firefighters to take FF1 and other courses, but they do not allow explorers to take part in classes.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Just a few quick things to help here

1) Yes because Volunteers get VFBL (because it is under the workers comp law), the Dept of Labor sees them as employees

2) Jr firefighters and Explorers are two very different groups. Jr firefighters are members of fire companies ages 16-18. They are covered under VFBL and so the are also covered under the Labor Laws. Explorers (Venturing) are non-members of fire compaines who are under the guidelines of the Boy Scouts, are from the age of 14 to 21 and are sponsered by a fire company. They are not covered under VFBL or NY State Labor Laws. Both groups are very different in what they can and canot do because of this difference.

3) OFPC allows Jr firefighters to take FF1 and other courses, but they do not allow explorers to take part in classes.

Jeff you covered what I was going to chime in with. In order to take a state certification course through OFPC you must be covered under the VFBL, hence explorers cannot take courses.

As a state and county fire instructor I often have 17 and occassionally 16 year olds in courses and my experience has been most often the Firefighter 1 curriculum and survival. The majority of them are very dedicated and quite serious (sometimes too serious) about what they are there to accomplish and some of the my finest students have been 17 year olds and many have thriving memberships to this day in the departments and I've had a several who have moved on to become professional firefighters. While sometimes needing a little more guidance in certain situations and of course their generational differences they perform well at a high percentage.

As far as them lacking the physical ability in comparision to a 35 year old. This is subjective. In fact most are in prime shape and nearly at their physical peak in regard to body development. Hence the military likes 17 to 22 year olds. The biggest difference is today they tend to be more whiny then your 35 year old. But that gets balanced by the generation trends and attitudes of some 35 year olds.

In closing, if you need the FAST training that bad I highly suggest you go through your channels within Dutchess County. I'm all for standards but if all else failed you could bring in someone familiar with the accepted fire service standards for FAST (state curriculum) and have them give an internal course. It will not count for state credit or pre-requisite purposes but at least you have the training. Additionally you could also discuss having the county coordinator speak with OFPC to see if it would be possible to have a FAST course or courses delivered by SFI's that could be loaned from other counties to fill the gap. I'm not saying this is a possibility this is just my thinking cap on. Complaining about it on a public forum and assuming (which know him I know he will) Jeff is going to get info from Dutchess 911 or whoever is great, but 1 person isn't going to help solve the issue. Talk to your Chiefs, who should talk to other Chiefs and make a consertive effort to get the change or means you feel you need. Write letters, etc. Dutchess is one of the only counties that does not have fairly extensive CFI capabilities and with the way the service is growing in the county and needs for FD's its time they look at it much deeper then they have.

[firefighter-70 27]

alsfirefighter,

Great post, lets make sure you have all the facts. First a chief officer from the north east corner of Dutchess showed me the DC911 center guidance/SOP on fast teams during the period of 2008-2009. It said you have to have ten trained members before you would be put on the list as having a FASTeam in Dutchess. That's your answer for "needing FAST training that badly", the county gave the impression with said SOP that State OFPC training was required. DC Pells stated something to the effect that the county would put you on the FAST list when the chief of your department request it. Unless this changed, in 2008 the DC911 guidance/SOP said you had to receive the State OFPC training, whether it was a CFI or SFI I don't recall. Your comment on getting the coordinator to speak to OFPC about getting classes by a SFI is a great suggestion, you do need to know that's exactly what was done by chiefs in the north east corner of dutchess. The answer to the request was "we got what we have" for classes, so why this might seem like complaining to you, it just setting the record straight.

Jeff you covered what I was going to chime in with. In order to take a state certification course through OFPC you must be covered under the VFBL, hence explorers cannot take courses.

As a state and county fire instructor I often have 17 and occassionally 16 year olds in courses and my experience has been most often the Firefighter 1 curriculum and survival. The majority of them are very dedicated and quite serious (sometimes too serious) about what they are there to accomplish and some of the my finest students have been 17 year olds and many have thriving memberships to this day in the departments and I've had a several who have moved on to become professional firefighters. While sometimes needing a little more guidance in certain situations and of course their generational differences they perform well at a high percentage.

As far as them lacking the physical ability in comparision to a 35 year old. This is subjective. In fact most are in prime shape and nearly at their physical peak in regard to body development. Hence the military likes 17 to 22 year olds. The biggest difference is today they tend to be more whiny then your 35 year old. But that gets balanced by the generation trends and attitudes of some 35 year olds.

In closing, if you need the FAST training that bad I highly suggest you go through your channels within Dutchess County. I'm all for standards but if all else failed you could bring in someone familiar with the accepted fire service standards for FAST (state curriculum) and have them give an internal course. It will not count for state credit or pre-requisite purposes but at least you have the training. Additionally you could also discuss having the county coordinator speak with OFPC to see if it would be possible to have a FAST course or courses delivered by SFI's that could be loaned from other counties to fill the gap. I'm not saying this is a possibility this is just my thinking cap on. Complaining about it on a public forum and assuming (which know him I know he will) Jeff is going to get info from Dutchess 911 or whoever is great, but 1 person isn't going to help solve the issue. Talk to your Chiefs, who should talk to other Chiefs and make a consertive effort to get the change or means you feel you need. Write letters, etc. Dutchess is one of the only counties that does not have fairly extensive CFI capabilities and with the way the service is growing in the county and needs for FD's its time they look at it much deeper then they have.

[Guest]

See this is a topic I was waiting for. Being a junior for two years with my department and having just become a full active ff after I turned 18 I know all to well the restrictions placed on us. I agree that training should be prioritized to ff who can do the most but I also feel that the more training a junior member can receive, the more useful he or she will be when the time comes. During my time as a junior I was consistantly a top responder due to the fact that almost all of our members have daytime jobs that they persue. NYS restricts members under 18 from entering an IDLH environment which we all knowns pretty much every single call. I feel that a member who is unde 18 has just as much ability as an exterior ff.

[tonyc856 16]

I think the Jr firefighter and Explorer programs are a huge help to the fire service. I have been involved with both programs for awhile. As stated above they are highly motivated when it comes to training. At the fire scene they free up firefighters from outside tasks like changing out SCBA and getting equiptment, so they can fight the fire. The Jr's who have gone through the FF1 course and other courses are ready to become interior soon at they reach 18.

I have seen many become chiefs in their department or other departments. I saw even more go on as a career. Even NY City has a high school program. It is really well worth it for any department to look into starting one of these. You really just need the RIGHT people to run the program.

[Guest MRK303]

A few years ago I was taking the summer daytime FF1 class at the county. There was one member of our class who was 16. Personally, I feel that it was a waste of a spot that someone else could've taken.

gpdexlorer... Myself and another member of my department took FF Intermediate when we were 16 (along with 2 other members of my department who were in there 30's). The two 16 year old's were then top responders and the 30 year old's...well I haven't seen then since that class. You will always get people that show up to the first class and never come back. You will always get middle aged members, 16 year old's, 21 year old's and "old" members that complete FF 1 and never show up again. Looking back to my class, I feel that the 30 year old's that never come around were a waste of a spot that someone could have taken. Just because someone is 16 years old or 18 years old, doesn't mean that they are a waste of space. We must remember that these 16 year old's are the future of the fire service and are imperative to closing the age gaps that exist in many of our departments.

[ohbdow1 6]

Several Pages attached

DOL Opinion on 16 & 17 year olds1.pdf

[tonyc856 16]

Several Pages attached

Just remember that those letters, as stated in the last page, has to do with "Explorer Boy Scouts can train as "junior fire fighters" for a volunteer fire deptment". Remember Explorers are members of the Venturing Unit of the Boy Scouts which is sponsor by a fire company. Jr Fire fighters are members of the fire company

[Guest alsfirefighter]

alsfirefighter,

Great post, lets make sure you have all the facts. First a chief officer from the north east corner of Dutchess showed me the DC911 center guidance/SOP on fast teams during the period of 2008-2009. It said you have to have ten trained members before you would be put on the list as having a FASTeam in Dutchess. That's your answer for "needing FAST training that badly", the county gave the impression with said SOP that State OFPC training was required. DC Pells stated something to the effect that the county would put you on the FAST list when the chief of your department request it. Unless this changed, in 2008 the DC911 guidance/SOP said you had to receive the State OFPC training, whether it was a CFI or SFI I don't recall. Your comment on getting the coordinator to speak to OFPC about getting classes by a SFI is a great suggestion, you do need to know that's exactly what was done by chiefs in the north east corner of dutchess. The answer to the request was "we got what we have" for classes, so why this might seem like complaining to you, it just setting the record straight.

I'm not sure why you would think that anything you put would perceived as complaining, but hey to each their own. With that said, thank you for advising me of the Dutchess SOP on FAST teams. I give them kudos for having something in place on a county level so there is cohesiveness across the system to start off with. Now with that said, its great that the chiefs of the "northeast corner" of Dutchess did what I gave as an option, what about the rest of them if they are having the same issue? Additionally speaking to OFPC and showing them specific numbers on need are completely separate and sometimes you have to stay on an issue so the squeaky wheel gets oil. In regard to SFI numbers, yes you have what you have, perhaps there is something that needs to be looked at to maximize the ability to deliver the course to get some of the numbers needed by departments, and there are ways to accomplish it, however I'm not speaking in any official capacity other then as a member of the fire service and one who is a member of a fire company in Dutchess County, hence its not my place to put it on here. Again they may not give you additional numbers of SFI's, but I still think its worth making the argument with the numbers needed and if not available to do so, attempt to request the course be done by SFI's from another county utilizing hours from Dutchess's hour pool for the fiscal year. If not then the County should buck up and see what CFI's can deliver the course and have it out there. Take a look at the PDF file OFPC allows viewing of that lists the training scheduled by every county filed within the dates shown on the file. Its no secret that counties with good CFI pools offer more scheduled classes. Now with that said I understand that by policy only certain courses can be taught by SFI's only. However CFI utilization frees them up a bit more by doing other classes that are available to CFI's so you can get the other courses done. There is an obvious need apparently for FAST courses if departments want to start providing that resource, sounds like some good discussion of the matter is needed amongst all agencies to approach those who handle these things to get it sorted out and hopefully get a good volume of FAST courses to at least get the ball rolling more.

[IzzyEng4 427]

The only thing I am going to add to this discussion is the everyone needs to look at your state and federal CHILD LABOR laws. That will determine the who what when where and why of the issue.

[DCJPells 29]

"First a chief officer from the north east corner of Dutchess showed me the DC911 center guidance/SOP on fast teams during the period of 2008-2009."

Can you get a copy of this and send it to me or post this here. I have no knowledge of this. I do have a document from the DC Chiefs but it does not come close to these numbers.

[DCJPells 29]

Not that this is the best or all encompassing document but this may give an idea on how we utilize 16/17 year old FF's. I f anybody has any ideas for updates, feel free to PM me.

V 16-17 YO FirefighterJob Position Description.pdf

[firefighter-70 27]

I have asked him to get me a copy, don't know about posting it here but I will try to get you a hard copy. This evening I ran into another chief officer from the north east corner and asked him what he knew about the county FASTeam requirement, he verbatim stated the 10 members needed to be FAST trained and equipped.

Can you get a copy of this and send it to me or post this here. I have no knowledge of this. I do have a document from the DC Chiefs but it does not come close to these numbers.

[firefighter-70 27]

"Quote by alsfirefighter" I'm not sure why you would think that anything you put would perceived as complaining, but hey to each their own.

"Quote by alsfirefighter" Complaining about it on a public forum and assuming (which know him I know he will) Jeff is going to get info from Dutchess 911 or whoever is great, but 1 person isn't going to help solve the issue.

"Just stating facts, not complaining"

The Chiefs of the north east corner are asking as a group, they continue to pursue the issue, advocating for their Firefighters.

[DCJPells 29]

I have asked him to get me a copy, don't know about posting it here but I will try to get you a hard copy. This evening I ran into another chief officer from the north east corner and asked him what he knew about the county FASTeam requirement, he verbatim stated the 10 members needed to be FAST trained and equipped.

Both DC911 operation Manager and CC1 do not know of ant document as described. CC1 did forward me the same DC Chiefs document that I have and DC911 Operations Manger confirmed "I am not aware of any DC911 document about FAST that specifies 10 people are needed. Yes, if a department has a FAST team, we would enter it in CAD. " that a notice from the FD it them will add a FAST to CAD. If someone does have the "10 man" document, please send it to me.