Firefighters Under 18 - Training and Legalities

[Guest]

I was told that many Departments in Dutchess County could not get the FAST team training from the State due to class size. A Firefighter from Millerton in 2008-2009 said to me that they were denied slots while Uniovale sent Explorers to FAST training using County slots. If true why send Explorers who cannot enter the building to save a brother in trouble. It might be that those making policy in Dutchess need to do some QC of who goes to FAST training so all Departments can establish teams to meet Dutchess County requirement (If Dutchess requires it).

I was taught that 2 in 2 out is the standard, all bets are off if you have someone hanging from the window ready to go. 2 in 2 out still needs to happen whether or not you have FAST trained firefighters. Take senior Firefighters and train them, assign them but most important make it happen on the fire ground upon arrival. Its your a--! if you get hung up. Stay Safe!

[DCJPells 29]

I was told that many Departments in Dutchess County could not get the FAST team training from the State due to class size. A Firefighter from Millerton in 2008-2009 said to me that they were denied slots while Uniovale sent Explorers to FAST training using County slots. If true why send Explorers who cannot enter the building to save a brother in trouble. It might be that those making policy in Dutchess need to do some QC of who goes to FAST training so all Departments can establish teams to meet Dutchess County requirement (If Dutchess requires it).

I was taught that 2 in 2 out is the standard, all bets are off if you have someone hanging from the window ready to go. 2 in 2 out still needs to happen whether or not you have FAST trained firefighters. Take senior Firefighters and train them, assign them but most important make it happen on the fire ground upon arrival. Its your a--! if you get hung up. Stay Safe!

Being that Explorers are NOT members of a Fire Company/District, I find this hard to believe unless someone falsified documentation as to having physicals and SCBA certified.

This can have serious implications as the restrictions to a true Explorer are numerous let alone them not being covered by a Company/District that they do not belong to.

Also a reminder that PESH has started that the pump operator cannot abandon their position so it is two in and 3 out in NY.

[Guest]

Chief,

I have to say that stranger things have happened. I just spoke with another firefighter close to Uniovale on the phone who claimed it was in fact the case. I asked if maybe it was FF survival they were talking about vs FAST, they said no its FAST training. Maybe a few questions sent the DC911 center might lead to some answers, or maybe not if in fact as you stated that someone might have falsified some documents. Either way it seems that the Departments around the northeast corner of Dutchess County feel they have been short changed by those making the call on who gets slots from the DC911 center. They might want to take a look at the County requirement and make sure they provide the slots for there departments so they can meet said county standard.

Being that Explorers are NOT members of a Fire Company/District, I find this hard to believe unless someone falsified documentation as to having physicals and SCBA certified.

This can have serious implications as the restrictions to a true Explorer are numerous let alone them not being covered by a Company/District that they do not belong to.

Also a reminder that PESH has started that the pump operator cannot abandon their position so it is two in and 3 out in NY.

[DCJPells 29]

Chief,

I have to say that stranger things have happened. I just spoke with another firefighter close to Uniovale on the phone who claimed it was in fact the case. I asked if maybe it was FF survival they were talking about vs FAST, they said no its FAST training. Maybe a few questions sent the DC911 center might lead to some answers, or maybe not if in fact as you stated that someone might have falsified some documents. Either way it seems that the Departments around the northeast corner of Dutchess County feel they have been short changed by those making the call on who gets slots from the DC911 center. They might want to take a look at the County requirement and make sure they provide the slots for there departments so they can meet said county standard.

I will discuss this with CC9 and CC1 if needed. Under no circumstance, should an explorer/venturer etc. take County classes and use County hours since they do not belong to an organized fire department.

[firefighter-70 27]

I will discuss this with CC9 and CC1 if needed. Under no circumstance, should an explorer/venturer etc. take County classes and use County hours since they do not belong to an organized fire department.

DC Pells,

I was told by the Millerton Chief that they were turned down for FAST school seats at Montour Falls through Dutchess County and that yes there were Explorers in the class from Unionvale. They protested but it fell on deaf ears. I guess strange things did happen!!

DC Pells,

I guess if needed part "needs to happen". It sucks when those that seek knowledge through training get screwed over, it damages morale.

[Jason S 68]

I will discuss this with CC9 and CC1 if needed. Under no circumstance, should an explorer/venturer etc. take County classes and use County hours since they do not belong to an organized fire department.

I took part in the DC weekend in Montour Falls two years ago, and the claim that explorers were in the class is accurate. Members from Union Vale under the age of 18 were taking the class.

[DCJPells 29]

I took part in the DC weekend in Montour Falls two years ago, and the claim that explorers were in the class is accurate. Members from Union Vale under the age of 18 were taking the class.

Just because they were under 18 does not mean they are explorers. In NY you can be a firefighter at 16.

[firefighter-70 27]

DC Pells,

Knowledge, Skills and Experience must count for something chief. Lets say that the intent here was good and Unionvale just wanted to train some up and coming firefighters, don't you think that sending Firefighters this young to FAST training while other Departments in the county needed FAST training just to establish their FAST team and had to wait merits asking what the heck!!! In the military we end up with very young Soldiers, we spend most of our time training the "new guy" on the art of the job. We don't put him on point still wet behind the ears. We put the skilled warrior out front on point with the experience and knowledge to get the job done safely. Through coaching, mentoring and teaching you build probie skills to prepare them for the job. No disrespect intended to those motivated 16 year old firefighters, but to be a trained FAST team member requires more then a state course to to make one, the course only adds some more tools (skills) to the tool box.

Just because they were under 18 does not mean they are explorers. In NY you can be a firefighter at 16.

[DCJPells 29]

DC Pells,

Knowledge, Skills and Experience must count for something chief. Lets say that the intent here was good and Unionvale just wanted to train some up and coming firefighters, don't you think that sending Firefighters this young to FAST training while other Departments in the county needed FAST training just to establish their FAST team and had to wait merits asking what the heck!!! In the military we end up with very young Soldiers, we spend most of our time training the "new guy" on the art of the job. We don't put him on point still wet behind the ears. We put the skilled warrior out front on point with the experience and knowledge to get the job done safely. Through coaching, mentoring and teaching you build probie skills to prepare them for the job. No disrespect intended to those motivated 16 year old firefighters, but to be a trained FAST team member requires more then a state course to to make one, the course only adds some more tools (skills) to the tool box.

I won't argue with you in the instance of a Department being conscientious on who should go. IMO, more experienced members should be allowed over younger members where the need and experience would be more beneficial. However, not all Departments do this and though not right, if they are a member then nothing can be done about it. If they are Explorers, that is something that can be addressed. A 16/17 year old member should concentrate on the basics. I've seen to many members accelerate through because they are short manpower and the members are not ready. Add the immaturity of someone 16/17 and it is a disaster waiting to happen.

FD's need to better police and manage their members so these situations do not occur. But as you know, this does not happen.

Edited March 2, 2010 by DCJPells

[v85 212]

A 16 or 17 year old member can not be interior qualified, so how can they be FAST? I thought all FAST team members were required to be interior firefighters.

[DCJPells 29]

A 16 or 17 year old member can not be interior qualified, so how can they be FAST? I thought all FAST team members were required to be interior firefighters.

Cite the law that supports this!

Don't get me wrong, I am not in support of this but people cannot dictate what others are doing that complies with a law.

[64FFMJK 21]

Cite the law that supports this!

Don't get me wrong, I am not in support of this but people cannot dictate what others are doing that complies with a law.

NYS Dept of Labor child labor laws prohibited occupations worker protection for workers under age 18.

[DCJPells 29]

NYS Dept of Labor child labor laws prohibited occupations worker protection for workers under age 18.

Not to split hairs but Interior qualified as to whose standard. This is determined by the Department. To meet the definition of a Volunteer Firefighter by NYS DOL, 15 hours of initial training needs to be taken and 8 hours of refresher!!!! This is not a typo!!!! If the Department meets the 15 hours of training of a member, then they can cut them loose as an interior FF. This as all know is woefully inadequate but that is what is written as was determined by DOL using OSHA 1910.156 as it's guide. At the same time they determined a Career member is 229 initial and 100 refresher (WTF). Do you see the problem!!!

A member taken training and meeting prerequisites to take FAST classes does not violate DOL laws as they apply to 16/17 year olds. I agree that 16/17 year olds can not be placed into the situation that is dangerous but training is a different animal.

[DCJPells 29]

NYS Dept of Labor child labor laws prohibited occupations worker protection for workers under age 18.

Since voluteers are not employees, tough to apply. There are some thoughts of violation of penal law having to do with a minor in a hazerdous activity causing harm but that is 16 and below.

Chris192?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Since voluteers are not employees, tough to apply. There are some thoughts of violation of penal law having to do with a minor in a hazerdous activity causing harm but that is 16 and below.

Chris192?

This is where this gets interesting, because according to OSHA and PESH (for NYS), volunteers ARE considered employees, if I am not mistaken.

[JM15 386]

Since voluteers are not employees, tough to apply. There are some thoughts of violation of penal law having to do with a minor in a hazerdous activity causing harm but that is 16 and below.

Chris192?

I also thought that volunteers were considered employees. If they aren't employees how do we get reimbursed for workers compensation if injured?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Since voluteers are not employees, tough to apply. There are some thoughts of violation of penal law having to do with a minor in a hazerdous activity causing harm but that is 16 and below.

NYS DOL PESH & the NYS courts have stated (many times) that volunteer FF's in NYS are employees, since the depts are requird to provide workers comp. That is how they can enforce the OSHA standards on them.

If I can find it (I have it written somewhere) I will post it.

[PEMO3 523]

Federal law, under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act, (FLSA) defines individuals that provide services without any expectation of compensation, and without any coercion or intimidation, as “volunteers” (non-employees).

The are many exceptions to this definition. For instance, if a volunteer receives a small payment, compensation or something of value in exchange for volunteering, the worker automatically an employee even if she or he didn’t “expect” to be paid. In NYS Volunteer Firefighters are compensated in many district with a pension, tax credit, etc. This "compensation for service" in essence make the volunteer an "unpaid employee" of the Fire District.

References: NYS Dept of Labor & Federal Labor Standards Act.

[fireman3484 1]

If they were in fact "explorers", which are a group of young adults between the ages of 14-20 and are sponsored by the Boy Scouts of America, then they are restricted from taking any NYS OFPC class. If they are junior members that are legally approved by the AHJ as a "member" which is generally 16-18, then they have the right to sit in any NYS class as any other person, but cannot perform hazardous duties as sited in other replies here.

[DCJPells 29]

NYS DOL PESH & the NYS courts have stated (many times) that volunteer FF's in NYS are employees, since the depts are requird to provide workers comp. That is how they can enforce the OSHA standards on them.

If I can find it (I have it written somewhere) I will post it.

I could be wrong but my recollection was some wording that made some things are applied like they are employees but they do not meet the definition in all cases. One is for the purpose of applying the fire Brigade Standard, PESH considers volunteers employees. Probably they are truly a hybrid.

Edited March 2, 2010 by DCJPells

[fireguy43 35]

Great thread, active intelligent discussion, and most of us can learn something. Kudos to Chief Pells, Bnechis, and other

posters

[PFDRes47cue 653]

A 16 or 17 year old member can not be interior qualified, so how can they be FAST? I thought all FAST team members were required to be interior firefighters.

I believe it is up to the department. I know that there are department that allow 16 year olds to be senior members and interior firefighters.

[gpdexplorer 46]

A few years ago I was taking the summer daytime FF1 class at the county. There was one member of our class who was 16. Personally, I feel that it was a waste of a spot that someone else could've taken. Not only did he not complete the class with us, he took the situation very lightly, told us that he wouldn't be allowed to be interior until he was 18, I believe, and was only there because his family was active in the FD and they wanted him to take the class, not that he wanted to be there. There are several members of my class that are on this board and can confirm this.

While I believe that younger FF's who are ready and willing to take classes, priority should be given to older members who will be able to do more for the FD, as younger members have curfews as to when they can respond on alarms and therefore will be less likely to actually utilize the training they received for the better good of the department.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

A few years ago I was taking the summer daytime FF1 class at the county. There was one member of our class who was 16. Personally, I feel that it was a waste of a spot that someone else could've taken. Not only did he not complete the class with us, he took the situation very lightly, told us that he wouldn't be allowed to be interior until he was 18, I believe, and was only there because his family was active in the FD and they wanted him to take the class, not that he wanted to be there. There are several members of my class that are on this board and can confirm this.

While I believe that younger FF's who are ready and willing to take classes, priority should be given to older members who will be able to do more for the FD, as younger members have curfews as to when they can respond on alarms and therefore will be less likely to actually utilize the training they received for the better good of the department.

if using the rational that you employed who should get trained in the basics first, a 35 year old man with a wife and kids that works 9-5 out of district and can not leave for alarms or an 16-18 year old who lives in town, works in town or goes to school in town.

The 35 year old man has the life experience, maturity and physical ability but a lack of time. The 16-18 your old kid has all the time in the world but is temporarily lacking in life experience, maturity and physical ability. Which is better, I do not know, I do not claim to know but compare basic characteristics, if you look time available, your 16-18 year old kid has far few obligations, far less of a time constraint and is easily the future of the department, provided they stay around long enough.

How do you who decides who gets trained when the only thing separating candidates is date of birth. That is provided that all available candidates can make the commitment, have no constraints and are virtually identical, except for age of course.

Edited March 3, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[wraftery 1,275]

NYS DOL PESH & the NYS courts have stated (many times) that volunteer FF's in NYS are employees, since the depts are requird to provide workers comp. That is how they can enforce the OSHA standards on them.

If I can find it (I have it written somewhere) I will post it.

I believe Vols are covered not under Workman's Comp, but by the Vol FF Benefit law which covers their injuries, disability, and lost wages from their regular job. I know you fill out Worker's Comp forms on a vol injury but I think it is only administered thru Workmen's Comp.

[gpdexplorer 46]

I believe Vols are covered not under Workman's Comp, but by the Vol FF Benefit law which covers their injuries, disability, and lost wages from their regular job. I know you fill out Worker's Comp forms on a vol injury but I think it is only administered thru Workmen's Comp.

I'm a little confused here Chief, could you clarify that a bit?

A member of of my firehouse got injured while at the firehouse. He was covered by Workman's Comp for his lost wages. I'm not sure if the village covered the medical expenses or if that was covered by Workman's Comp as well.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I believe Vols are covered not under Workman's Comp, but by the Vol FF Benefit law which covers their injuries, disability, and lost wages from their regular job. I know you fill out Worker's Comp forms on a vol injury but I think it is only administered thru Workmen's Comp.

We each get a point. The Vol FF Benefit Law, is a subchapter in the Workman's Comp law. It is basicly what makes a volunteer a "worker or employee" for insurance purposes.

§ 2. Purpose. One of the finest traditions of American community life

is the service which people render to others without remuneration.

Volunteer firemen have long been in the forefront of this group. In

recognition of the unselfish service by these volunteers, government has

undertaken to provide for them and their families some measure of

protection against loss from death or injuries in line of duty. Over the

years there has developed a dual system of benefits when volunteer

firemen are killed or injured. The dual system has caused uncertainty

and confusion. This law establishes a new single system of benefits for

volunteer firemen and provides for the administration of such system by

the workmen's compensation board and the chairman of such board.

It is hereby declared that this chapter is intended to effectuate the

objects and purposes of section eighteen of article one of the state

constitution and that the relationship between the political subdivision

liable for benefits under this chapter and a volunteer fireman entitled

to such benefits is that of employer and employee within the meaning of

such provision of the state constitution.

Always interesting to go read (or reread) the law. I was looking to see if there was anything about age, I did not find any age issue (in VFD's) but what I did find (for another thread) is volunteers are not covered during any compititions that envolve any physical activity (like parades) and any activity when the member has been drincking alcohol.

[16fire5 693]

Since voluteers are not employees, tough to apply. There are some thoughts of violation of penal law having to do with a minor in a hazerdous activity causing harm but that is 16 and below.

Chris192?

I think this is what your referring to.

S 260.10 Endangering the welfare of a child.

A person is guilty of endangering the welfare of a child when:

1. He knowingly acts in a manner likely to be injurious to the

physical, mental or moral welfare of a child less than seventeen years

old or directs or authorizes such child to engage in an occupation

involving a substantial risk of danger to his life or health

[wraftery 1,275]

I do know for a fact that when a Volunteer gets injured, there is about four times the paperwok than that of a Career FF.

[ex-commish 490]

I believe it is up to the department. I know that there are department that allow 16 year olds to be senior members and interior firefighters.

I can not believe a department would allow a 16 year old to be an interior firefighter. I am all for junior programs and do encourage them but at that age they should not be allowed to enter burning buildings or any other dangerous situations. I do believe at that age they should be mentored and trained and disciplined. Training under controlled conditions is one thing but to put them in actual incidents is dangerous and wreckless. And to add fireground officers should not have to babysit. We did enough with some of the senior guys

As a former chief who had 16-18 year olds I along with my officers were very careful that these kids were not placed in harms way. My department had strict rules about thier function on the incident ground. I was often criticized by certain people that I would not allow them to do more on the fireground. My response was I do not want to be the one to have to knock on a parents door to tell them thier child was killed because we failed to safeguard them. At the end of the day they are just kids.