Intercounty Mutual Aid - how far is too far?

[Chris NHFD 1]

Can someone explain to me why Hughsonville would be the second due fast team to Highland? What about City Of Pok, Fairview, Arlington, New Hamburgh or even Kingston could be there in 10 minutes with a quick trip down the thruway. I understand Marlboro is the first due and if they are not available Hughsonville is next? That is absolutey ridiculous, I understand the whole concept of not taking away all resources from the airway but isnt the Fast Team a very important team that is needed at the scene. I am sure that if you took one of the other teams that is much closer it would not have hurt the areas. I could be wrong about this but it just seems to me that having a department come from 20 minutes away is a little bit much. Just my opinion and I could be way off base but maybe someone can explain. And before anyone gets all pissed I am not bad mouthing Hughsonville by anymeans. They were called and they responded and they are just doing what they were asked to do.

One of the main reasons why Hughsonville was set up as mutual aid was because the old captain orignally was good friends with people over there, due to why it stands im not honestly too sure but it is all for good cause. I do agree with you between loosing resources and also have a department from further away when there are plenty closer ones but across the river thier resources are limited.

[x129K 1,393]

You may want to check your information as most of it is wrong.

Word...where did THAT come from?

ok due to that marlboro is the 2ed in fast team to highland and milton is first milton had a house fire at the same time and marlboro was at that fire also plattakill had a fire at the same time so now you have 3 big fires going on tying up all dept. in the area and if a 4th were to come in im sure companys like the c.o.p and arlington would be going to it was set up awhile ago for hughsonville to go to highland if the first 2 are put to work in this case neather one was able to go and from what im told there was already a differnt fast team there and got put to work and really if you wana know a true answer we can all write what we think what we here and now but if it eans that much call highland hose company and ask for the chief car 31 and ask him and if he wonts to tell you y im sure he will or does it really matter r we going to lose sleep over what truck goes where what fast team goes to who if it means that much to the people call and ask the chief

What does that say!?

A. Did they get there?

B. Did they serve the purpose that they were called for?

C. Did they have adequate manpower/ equipment?

D. Was there untoward effect (loss of life/ increased risk) secondary to their delayed response under extreme circumstances (ie. 3 extra alarm fires in the same Battalion)?

E. Did that response/ utilization of resources/ specific department preplan save or spend manpower from a department that otherwise dedicates limited manpower to high volume areas?

F. Would it be different if it was 1100 hrs on a weekday?

These are questions that when answered will lead to a productive conversation, otherwise there is a lot of scanner listening - armchair quarterbacking in this discussion which seems to be an increasing trend in this forum. This is extremely counterproductive,leads to overall misinformation, and threads being locked.

Albeit there are a few with tride and true fireground experience speaking of this call, most partaking in this thread (including myself and 90% of the membership here on EMTBravo) have somewhat limited fireground experience (just from age and profile information) in comparison to the scopes of decision making that is required in such unique situations (ie. practical preplans for multiple extra alarm fires in the same area with limited manpower/ resources and water supply coordination for a hydranted city during a state of emergency that essentially puts all of your hydrants out of service). Perhaps before we break out the "jump to conclusion mats" we could base our $h!t talking on some valid information. Perhaps "senior members", UC 911/ DC 911 Dispatchers, Emergency Management professionals, or a Chief of an involved Department would care to elaborate prior to this becoming a "blue light argument".

Booyah - great post.

An amazing attempt at conserving punctuation marks....

LOL x INFINITY!

My apologies Tom, you were correct. There's an interesting conversation.... not saying it was the wrong call, but I would like to hear the rationale for going so far afield. Tankers with a at least a couple thousand gallons in Glenham, Hughsonville, East Fishkill, etc.. Did BFD consciously think about where the heavy snow line was and go beyond it? Again, not questioning the decision, just fascinated as to what the thought process was. Anyone from Beacon care to explain?

AND..... what were they thinking in PV when they got called to the big city

PVFD is no stranger to a "big city"...they come to Poughkeepsie enough...many of their members are on various urban jobs as well..PVFD will go anywhere, at anytime..and work their asses off.

A 16 or 17 year old member can not be interior qualified, so how can they be FAST? I thought all FAST team members were required to be interior firefighters.

I was "in" more fires when I was 16 and 17 than in my twenties! Back them we were having a good bit of fires and not so much for manpower...literally "trial by fire"...VIVA EL RANCHO!" THAT was a good fire!

This thread is confusing - it starts out about Hughsonville going across the river for FAST...then gets into the Valley going to Beacon (which was ALREADY explained in another thread - and it is not uncommon for a department to travel a long distance in times of major emergencies)....

Would this even be an issue if it was ANY other department other than HFD? I can tell you without a doubt - if I was in a position where I needed to establish an incoming FAST Team - I would certainly lean towards a well equipped, well manned, aggressive department such as HFD over one that is...well...the opposite.

Hughsonville - Dutchess County's Kentland! LOL!

[Guest]

DC Pells

Being that you are a leader within the fire service in Dutchess County could you as stated, speak with CC9 or who ever else in the food chain that controls seats to schools such as FAST and make sure that equity and common sense is used in the distribution of slots. We both know that being friends with who ever at the County had no play what so ever that Unionvale got the nod! It all on the level, right? I've met several Firefighters from the north east corner of Dutchess who don't think it is.

I hope you can address it and shine some sun lite on it, being that you are a professional voice of reason makes me say thanks in advance if you do get it fixed.

I won't argue with you in the instance of a Department being conscientious on who should go. IMO, more experienced members should be allowed over younger members where the need and experience would be more beneficial. However, not all Departments do this and though not right, if they are a member then nothing can be done about it. If they are Explorers, that is something that can be addressed. A 16/17 year old member should concentrate on the basics. I've seen to many members accelerate through because they are short manpower and the members are not ready. Add the immaturity of someone 16/17 and it is a disaster waiting to happen.

FD's need to better police and manage their members so these situations do not occur. But as you know, this does not happen.

[DCJPells 29]

Word...where did THAT come from?

Not sure where your going with this Dan. This was in response to "New Hamburgh and Arlington do not have FAST Teams", "City Of Poughkeepsie uses Highland FAST Team Over Fairview sometimes, because Fairview is operating as a back up engine or ladder. "

[x129K 1,393]

Not sure where your going with this Dan. This was in response to "New Hamburgh and Arlington do not have FAST Teams", "City Of Poughkeepsie uses Highland FAST Team Over Fairview sometimes, because Fairview is operating as a back up engine or ladder. "

Was referring to his info...wayyyyyyyyyyy out there! LOL!

[DCJPells 29]

Was referring to his info...wayyyyyyyyyyy out there! LOL!

Sorry, I took it as a response to me.

[x129K 1,393]

Sorry, I took it as a response to me.

Sorry....in the "younger generations" the use of "word" is a term of agreement.

[Guest]

I don't understand why chiefs and coordinators have to worry about what department to call upon to provide a FAST crew. When I was still on the job, all of the firefighters in my career department were trained in FAST procedures and all ladder companies were fully equipped for that mission. In addition, all interior firefighters in my volunteer company were FAST trained and our apparatus were fully equipped for the task. FAST is a vital part of keeping our firefighters safe, it should not be treated as some kind of specialty such as Haz Mat, dive or high angle rescue. FAST training should be a part of basic firefighter training just like engine and ladder company operations are.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I don't understand why chiefs and coordinators have to worry about what department to call upon to provide a FAST crew. When I was still on the job, all of the firefighters in my career department were trained in FAST procedures and all ladder companies were fully equipped for that mission. In addition, all interior firefighters in my volunteer company were FAST trained and our apparatus were fully equipped for the task. FAST is a vital part of keeping our firefighters safe, it should not be treated as some kind of specialty such as Haz Mat, dive or high angle rescue. FAST training should be a part of basic firefighter training just like engine and ladder company operations are.

Well said. You are correct every firefighter and every rig should be able to be FAST, it is clear that due to lack of training, experience, or personnel (including interior certified) many departments and their members can not do this critical and basic function of rescuing another firefighter.

[DCJPells 29]

Sorry....in the "younger generations" the use of "word" is a term of agreement.

I was just learnig ebonics and now they throw youngbonics and texting at me.

[wraftery 1,275]

Well said. You are correct every firefighter and every rig should be able to be FAST, it is clear that due to lack of training, experience, or personnel (including interior certified) many departments and their members can not do this critical and basic function of rescuing another firefighter.

BadBox, Bnechis Thanks for saying that. I tried to say the same thing a ways back in this thread,and that there was a great misunderstading of the FAST concept among many of the posts in this thread. The FAST team is not a "specialty item" like a Dive team. It ia a function that every FF on any scene should be able to perform.

Perhaps I was a little hard, but as a Fire Officer, I found that a good conniption fit (no more than twice a year) gets things done. It doesn't look like it worked this time.

If you guys care to elaborate on your posts I would appreciate the backup, but wear your helmet.

[moggie6 54]

Wasn't there a fire chief in the Fishkill area who wanted to call a ladder truck over to cover his station when Wappingers had a huge fire a couple of years ago? Did that request by the chief ever get met?

[Guest]

BadBox, Bnechis Thanks for saying that. I tried to say the same thing a ways back in this thread,and that there was a great misunderstading of the FAST concept among many of the posts in this thread. The FAST team is not a "specialty item" like a Dive team. It ia a function that every FF on any scene should be able to perform.

Perhaps I was a little hard, but as a Fire Officer, I found that a good conniption fit (no more than twice a year) gets things done. It doesn't look like it worked this time.

If you guys care to elaborate on your posts I would appreciate the backup, but wear your helmet.

'WRaftery': You should be ticked off by anyone who would be against the concept of requiring all firefighters to possess the knowledge and physical ability required to perform as part of the FAST. I would welcome the chance to hear how someone would attempt to justify responding to fire scenes with firefighters who are not fully trained and equipped to deal with all fireground tasks. These people (whoever they may be) must be reminded that firefighting is a very dangerous (even when done correctly) life and death endeavor. When firefighters are in harm's way and something goes horribly wrong, everyone on the fireground (from chief officers on down to probationary firefighters) must be immediately able to jump into action and get the job done. Does more need to be said?

[GoDucks23 6]

Ok, all I did was ask a question. I really didnt mean to start a huge thread or a big pissing match. I was just wondering what the reasoning beyond it was. I was a simple question. And as for this whole reputation ranking thing on the site, I am just curious why I am at negative now for asking a question? I guess I now know my lesson and that is to not ask questions and your rep will never be impacted up or down. I do want to say thanks to the Chief from Highland for answering the question. He didnt have to but he did and I appreciate it.

[Guest]

I've been told that DC911 center will only dispatch FAST teams on mutual aid from Departments that have "Qualified FAST teams". Not sure whether or not this is true. This would cut down the pool of Departments available if this is the case. Either way you peel back the onion the RIT/FAST needs to be established ASAP and it does not matter if they have been to State FAST training. I don't think that someone would be checking for fast cards at the front door of the fire building.

[DCJPells 29]

I've been told that DC911 center will only dispatch FAST teams on mutual aid from Departments that have "Qualified FAST teams". Not sure whether or not this is true. This would cut down the pool of Departments available if this is the case. Either way you peel back the onion the RIT/FAST needs to be established ASAP and it does not matter if they have been to State FAST training. I don't think that someone would be checking for fast cards at the front door of the fire building.

Actually DC911 will dispatch only FASTeams they know about. They do not qualify or ask. They do have a CAD listing of identified FAST. If you say you have a FASTeam, they will list it.

I will say I do agree that all FF's need to be trained and refreshed so the FASTeam should be moot, just a request for XYZ department for FAST Operations and the closest is sent.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

All replies that were referring to Firefighters under the age of 18 were split into a new topic:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=36021

[JetPhoto 626]

replying to the other question in this thread...

Beacon received m/a from Roosevelt & Pleasant Valley due to the large number of calls.

Southern Dutchess specifically, Beacon, Chelsea, Glenham, Rombout, Fishkill, Hughsonville & New Hamburg received over 30" of snow while the rest of the county got less than a foot. Call volume was very high and it put a toll on manpower of each department. I believe Pleasant Valley had there tanker in Beacon because most hydrants were buried in the snow and lack of electric at some water plants

In southern Dutchess, the following departments have tankers:

Dutchess Junction

Glenham

Chelsea

Hughsonville (2)

These are all in battalion 7 and all were busy as I stated above

[fireguy43 35]

Beacon is the big city?

But seriously that is a long trip from PV down to Beacon

No offense meant to PVFD, nor to the City of Beacon. What I meant by the comment was that it is unusual for a M/A request from

so far away. It's been done, but it isn't common. To get a M/A request in PV from Beacon, and for a tanker, no less, is quite

unusual. My curiosity is to the decision making process. Did BFD Car 1 request a mutual aid tanker and let DC911 decide how

far away to go for it so as to escape the snow line, did BFD car 1 specifically request PV, did DC911 poll a number of Chiefs

from the northern end of the county to see who could fulfill the request? Etc., etc. I'm more interested in understanding

"how the system worked".

[fireguy43 35]

Did you not understand that Southern Dutchess County was getting hammered during the storm? There was a thought process that included officials from Beacon, and Dutchess County 911. It worked well!

Yes I did understand. I live in Southern Dutchess and responded to calls during the storm myself. Instead of being insulting,

read my post. I am interested in the how and who of the decision. I am not challenging the move, in fact, it was a pretty

good idea, and represents a creative decision making scenario. Kudos to all involved in making the decision, including the

PVFD for stepping up, and BFD for anticipating the possibility of the need. I would just like to know the nuts and bolts of

how the decision was reached, and what made them choose PV. No need to get nasty...

[truck45 1]

The decision to relocate PV to Beacon came from combined input from Beacon, Dutchess 911,and County Coordinators.

[fireguy43 35]

The decision to relocate PV to Beacon came from combined input from Beacon, Dutchess 911,and County Coordinators.

And you know this because you were involved in the decision making process? You're an officer in either BFD, PVFD, a

County Coordinator (or Deputy Coordinator)or a member of the dispatch staff?

[Guest]

One of the main reasons why Hughsonville was set up as mutual aid was because the old captain orignally was good friends with people over there, due to why it stands im not honestly too sure but it is all for good cause. I do agree with you between loosing resources and also have a department from further away when there are plenty closer ones but across the river thier resources are limited.

Seriously?? You really think that a department would pick another departments FAST Team because they were friends with the captain at the time!! Why don't you read the post from the Assistant Chief of Highland!!

First off let me start by saying that this post is by no means trying to discredit other departments or their procedures/policies. As it will be explained we arrived to our decisons based off of research. I am an Asst. Chief/member of the Highland Fire District. I am going to try and set the record straight in regards to the decisions that were made in last nights multiple structure fire incidents and in future incidents to come. As most of you are aware while Milton's Structure fire was wrapping up, we were dispatched to a poss. chimney fire on pretty much the farthest end of our district. New Paltz was dispatched with an engine on the inital dispatch. Upon arriving the 2nd alarm assignment was requested. That would normally bring an engine and manpower from one of our surrounding depts.Being that Marlboro was standing by at Milton's headquarters, Car 31 requested that they be dispatched to our location with their engine and manpower. Now normally we would have Marlboro's FAST Team dispatched on that assignment, but the fact that we were utilizing them for another assignment, it was decided to dispatch our backup FAST Team Hughsonville. Now the question is why Hughsonville? And the answer to that is .... their overall FAST Operation is in many ways the same. They require their members to attend and stay current with training, they have a set of FAST SOP's (some departments that we looked at did not), they will not respond if certain criteria is not met... (ie. at least 4 members on the truck before it responds)... you know pretty much not going to do a job that is asked of you with JUST THE MINIMUM. Yeah it may take the in excess of 20 minutes.... and for the record it was a 17 minute response for last nights incident. And I will say one thing for the first time being used it went very well. They did what you would expect from a FAST Team and then some. The decsion to utilize them took MONTHS not hours or days like I am sure that most of you are thinking or believing, but MONTHS.

If anyone has any further questions please feel free to contact me.

Thanks again to ALL of the Mutual Aid Companies that assisted at last nights incident. You assistance was GREATLY APPRECIATED !!!

[16fire5 693]

Wouldn't Poughkeepsie, Arlington, or Fairview have a better response time to Highland? I would assume they would be on the road upon dispatch due to career staffing. 17 minutes seems like a good time from Hughsonville to Highland but it's still a long time for interior firefighting without a safety valve (FAST).

[fireguy43 35]

I asked a viable question which I don't think you are qualified to answer factually. It's not an interrogation, I just want the facts, not someone's guesses. Who was involved in the decision to put a tanker in Beacon, and who decided that it would be Pleasant Valley's? Surely Beacon Car 1 was involved to some extent, but did he request PV or just a "tanker"? Did the county decide who it would be or did PV volunteer? Just looking to get details on how the command decision was arrived at, not because I want to second guess the decision. I think it was a great idea. As to "listening up", two posts from you and both dripping with sarcasm and attitude. Not necessary nor appropriate in this forum.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Listen up, your question was previously answered, so there is no need to continue with the interrogation.

I asked a viable question which I don't think you are qualified to answer factually. It's not an interrogation, I just want the facts, not someone's guesses. Who was involved in the decision to put a tanker in Beacon, and who decided that it would be Pleasant Valley's? Surely Beacon Car 1 was involved to some extent, but did he request PV or just a "tanker"? Did the county decide who it would be or did PV volunteer? Just looking to get details on how the command decision was arrived at, not because I want to second guess the decision. I think it was a great idea. As to "listening up", two posts from you and both dripping with sarcasm and attitude. Not necessary nor appropriate in this forum.

I recommend the two of you take this to a PM discussion, and resume the conversation when the answers have been reached. This bickering back and forth is unprofessional on both sides, especially for those who don't care to reveal their true identity, or affiliation(s).

If you can come to a conclusion, please post the answers in here, but aside from that, the back and forth bickering ends here.

[Guest ffjay376]

i think 20 min. for a fast team is'nt that unreasonable. I know that ever fire is different but alot of times you mutual aid tanker or back up truck co. is getting there 10 15 min. but im also from the east time of the tsp.

[conman 40]

Fast Teams on this side of the river are limited. Besides Highland and Marlboro, the only other fast teams that i know of are Mount Marion, Napanoch and Centerville-Cedar Grove. So the choice of Highland to use Hughsonville is a smart choice. Its a closer team then one of the northern or western ones. As for using the City of Kingston, they will respond but as for a fast team thats hard because of the manpower on their engines.