Train Wreck - Brainstorming - What would we do?

[helicopper 1,050]

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the last drill Metro-North had in our area was about 20 years ago. I remember it vaguely, because I was still in Middle School and couldn't go.

The MTA does drills every year but they rotate the locations so more people can take advantage of the opportunity. Call them and ask where this year's is going to be, I'm sure they'll tell you.

As for their training and outreach about services/equipment/hazards, they also offer that on a frequent basis. Being from Croton I'm surprised you guys haven't seen it all already.

[wraftery 1,275]

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the last drill Metro-North had in our area was about 20 years ago. I remember it vaguely, because I was still in Middle School and couldn't go.

There was a MCI drill at the N White Plains yard about 5 years ago. It was set up by my favorite Metro North Chief.

[Remember585 815]

I have to agree with my Chief here, as I have been here longer then he has, but Training from Metro has been limited, and I have been very Active in Croton since 1983...

Except for that one time...at band camp...

[Tanker 10eng 140]

great one wrathery !!!

[Remember585 815]

There was a MCI drill at the N White Plains yard about 5 years ago. It was set up by my favorite Metro North Chief.

I think Stinson is driving!

[LTFIREPRG 154]

Any department who wants training only has to call Spanky. Spanky and his assistant Bob Stinson are more than willing to provide training to any department that requests it. As required by law, Metro North conducts yearly Inter Agency Emergency Preparedness Exercises, Last years was in Mount Vernon.

[Anthony Tester 13]

I have to agree with my Chief here, as I have been here longer then he has, but Training from Metro has been limited, and I have been very Active in Croton since 1983...

Well lets see, there was one in Mount Vernon (2009), one in Yonkers (2008)....It is definitely not limited. Maybe your departments involvement has been limited, but not the training. Like I stated earlier, there is always training going on.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

hmmmmm I guess I miss the notices about the Training in Yonkers and Mt Vernon... anyone else see them ? I think the bottom line should be simple, the railroads need to reach out, and become more proactive in training those who many be effected by one of their incidents...

[PEMO3 523]

That leads me to ask, what about all the town, village, and city police departments in lower and northern Westchester? What are their plans for Incident Management? Have they cross-trained and interacted with the other agencies? I always think in fire department terms. The Emergency Management people should be thinking in those larger terms of combined ops; but they are supposed to be support. They don't run the scene. So, how about them small PDs?

The biggest help that any agency can do for itself is to pre-plan for the worst in their area. That includes identifying ahead of time staging areas, medivac landing spots and access and egress routes. When the s--t hits the fan you are not going to have the time to look for these areas quickly. Ensuring that an officer knows how to be a staging officer is important also. It is more than a parking lot attendant. Making sure that vehicle operators stay with vehicles, that keys to all sidelined vehicles are secured so they can be moved if need be. On a large incident a staging officer might actually need a staff to get the job done. Remember staging is another division. Edfcapt115 you are 100% correct Emergency Management is a support staff operation meant to decompress the ancillary work load of the IC and his staff by help coordinate inter-agency operations and resource procurement. They should be cross trained enough to know how to assist each facet of the operation.

[helicopper 1,050]

In my original medic class, we were told that the message was Major Disaster Send all Available Ambulances. 6 hours after all patients had been transfered amulances were still showing up from at least as far as Albany. I dont know if that is true or not, but it is the way I always remember to ask for what you need and not all come.

Original medic class? Was that instructed by Dr. Joe Early or Dr. Kelly Brackett by chance?

[helicopper 1,050]

hmmmmm I guess I miss the notices about the Training in Yonkers and Mt Vernon... anyone else see them ? I think the bottom line should be simple, the railroads need to reach out, and become more proactive in training those who many be effected by one of their incidents...

http://www.mta.info/mta/news/releases/?agency=mnr&en=090514-MNR15

These were exercises not training sessions. Unless you are part of the response plan for Yonkers or Mount Vernon you wouldn't get a notice about the exercises in those communities. Metro North has run training sessions on their equipment right at the Croton Harm Yards so I can't imagine why you didn't know about it. I've seen the notices and I'm not even in the fire service.

If your department's Chief or Training Officer reaches out to the people already identified, Streany, Spanky or Stinson, I'm sure they'll set you up with the training you seek.

As for planning, that has to be done by you because every station is different and virtually every mile of track is different.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Original medic class? Was that instructed by Dr. Joe Early or Dr. Kelly Brackett by chance?

No, but we watch there "training" tapes to learn how its done

[ajsbear 11]

No, but we watch there "training" tapes to learn how its done

Dr Marcus Wellbie and Dr Killdaire?

[ajsbear 11]

Here's a twist, many sections of the Hudson Line have very limited access. North of Peekskill through Garrison almost none except in some places along the tracks. I ride the line often enough and always ask myself what if? The little access road in some areas can barely fit 1 rig.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Here's a twist, many sections of the Hudson Line have very limited access. North of Peekskill through Garrison almost none except in some places along the tracks. I ride the line often enough and always ask myself what if? The little access road in some areas can barely fit 1 rig.

Maybe this is the way to handle this:

This was the 1st pic in the incident that started this thread. They are railroad hand push carts.

This is FDNY's electric cart to pull a number of its hand carts. The hand carts can be used in subways or MTA lines. They are light enough to be carried by 2 members and can be used to move equipment or 3 backboarded patients (being pushed by 1 ff). THe carts are being deployed to engine co's they will be stored on the apparatus floor (1 per assigned engine) and can be transported on the back step with a simple strap.

Maybe this is something that MTA can help us get for their tracks in our region. Many of us have problem locations (the Peekskill one is probably the worst).

[ajsbear 11]

Barry, those may be a partial answer. North of Peekskill, much of the access is only by water through Garrison and into Cold Spring. There are also areas in Westchester where it's steep inclines and through some of the estates and other properties.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry, those may be a partial answer. North of Peekskill, much of the access is only by water through Garrison and into Cold Spring. There are also areas in Westchester where it's steep inclines and through some of the estates and other properties.

I am aware, this way you run a few of these electric cars and a dozen of those carts and you make a rescue train.

[helicopper 1,050]

Barry, those may be a partial answer. North of Peekskill, much of the access is only by water through Garrison and into Cold Spring. There are also areas in Westchester where it's steep inclines and through some of the estates and other properties.

Or by AIR!!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Or by AIR!!!

Last time they landed a copter for a call in that section they almost met the train.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Not too sure where you have been, but you are way off here. Metro North does drills all the time, in NY and CT. They have always been more than willing to help.

Yes they do conduct training and if I remember correctly they do it on a rotating basis within municipalities that have stations on their lines. What I'm about to discuss is in no way a dig at the MTA and the drills conducted, but the way in which they are conducted. Which I'm not saying anything knew as I grew up around Spanky and have discussed this with him at length.

First...why is it that when there are deficiencies noted in an area of responsibility for an agency often the comments are we need a drill...train us!!? Has anyone requested additional training through the MTA? Has anyone sat down and taken a hard look at their SOP/SOG's for response to an event involving the railroad in their area? Do you even have any? Want the training? Do what you need to get it! If you sit around waiting...then your part of the problem. There are things that can be done with good input from the resources within the MTA, and there are things you can do on your own which involves again SOP/SOG review, doing table tops of incidents at various points within your area, which leads me to my next point.

If you are going to have a drill in your area involving the MTA. Try to be realistic. I have been involved or part of a couple of drills over the past couple of years and I can't believe how unrealistic many departments both fire and EMS operate during them. How can you realistically judge where you are if you were to have an event, when you staff apparatus by filling every seat when that hardly ever if not never happens during your normal day to day operations? Or you don't allow your members to park their cars in the area, but again realistically, they are going to show up with the blue and green light parade along with the y'all comers to take pictures, video, or to "assist," and park all over potentially choking the area for needed space for ambulance entry/exit, triage/treatment areas, additional apparatus, etc. How long is it going to take to get a good compliment of personnel of both fire and ems to the scene? How long will it take to get a good amount of ambulances? Do you have pre-established staging areas? Landing zones? Multiple Landing zones if you may need multiple medevacs? Control zones to keep civilians and if need be additional responders out of the immediate area if the scene becomes overwhelmed with too many resources? An area for the press? Established PIO's to disseminate information?

There are things that can be planned and exercised long before train cars are filled up with fake smoke or simulated a catastrophic event that can pave the way to future successful exercises and god forbidding a true event. Many of us on the Hudson Line have training stations with extremely limited access and egress that could make an event with a large amount of patients difficult to coordinate....so in the meantime while your awaiting a drill from the MTA...

what have you done?

[helicopper 1,050]

Realism in exercises is definitely an issue. I've heard some wild things from people about what they'll during an exercise when they've actually never even trained or exercised that capability or skill. That oughta be a really interesting evolution to watch.

As much as I'm not a fan of the way the Feds try to shoehorn everything into a tidy little acronym or under the veil of some new definition one thing that is right on the mark is capability based planning. This is also incorporated into the exercise process.

Hmmm... the exercise process. That's another problem most of us have, we don't follow the process. The process isn't picking the most convenient Saturday when odds are the weather will be favorable and inviting all your friends and neighbors to play with the toys for a few hours followed by a barbecue or other social event. Yet this is how most agencies approach exercises. Some even choose the same scenario year in and year out focusing only on one hazard or problem.

The process should start with a capabilities assessment to determine what needs to be exercised in the first place. What capabilities do we have, what capabilities do we need? This coupled with a legitimate hazard analysis can be used to guide training, equipment procurement, deployment strategies, policies and plans, and the exercise process.

How many agencies have had a tabletop exercise at which they've assessed their own in-house capability to respond to a given scenario - realistically using likely numbers of responders, available mutual aid, real response times, and actual equipment and resources? That's the start.

You should build up to a full-scale exercise but everyone seems to start with them and they overlook the value of discussion based exercises leading up to the event.

And there should be an after action report and improvement plan so the same mistakes aren't repeated over and over.

All this is tied to the money too, if you don't do it this way you're not going to get any from the feds.

[PEMO3 523]

The point of having members respond in their POVs and not shoehorned into every apparatus that respond in for a drill is on point. Making members aware of the location of both staging and a "responder parking area" would help ensure access and egress is not blocked by dozens of vehicles abandoned and without keys available, parked every which way. An idea for large incidents would have members have a "vehicle accountability tag" that can be placed on their dash to identify the member attached to the vehicle and assist the location of the operator with the keys if the vehicle needs moving.

As far as the Peekskill area north you are 100% on point with access as a major issue. North of the Annsville Creek bridge there is extremely limited access not withstanding a collision in many parts could easily be a river incident as cars could leave the track enter the river in many locations.

An important safety factor that begs notice is making members aware that while the third rail is an issue so are the contact shoes on both sides of the train that can be energized as well. Members occasionally take a false sense of security that they are working opposite the third rail not realizing that contact with an energized contact shoe provides the same results. Make sure they are booted whenever possible for safety. Never assume power off will stay off.

[wraftery 1,275]

Barry, those may be a partial answer. North of Peekskill, much of the access is only by water through Garrison and into Cold Spring. There are also areas in Westchester where it's steep inclines and through some of the estates and other properties.

The responders in those areas that are accessable only by water should be preplanning resources for a MCI in those places. Now is the time to work these things out. You will probably need private resources form a distance...maybe something like NY Water Taxi, with a 1 hr response time. Also, you can't just Say we'll use NY water Taxi. The resource has to be agreeable beforehand before you can consider it a resource.

More important: Talk to Spanky. The railroad right-of-way is his jurisdiction, not yours. There is also a distinct possibility that Spanky already thought of this problem spot in his jurisdiction and already has a preplan. That's his job.

Remember brainstorming is OK, however "Too many cooks screw up the soup."

[dragonrescue 28]

Maybe this is the way to handle this:

This was the 1st pic in the incident that started this thread. They are railroad hand push carts.

This is FDNY's electric cart to pull a number of its hand carts. The hand carts can be used in subways or MTA lines. They are light enough to be carried by 2 members and can be used to move equipment or 3 backboarded patients (being pushed by 1 ff). THe carts are being deployed to engine co's they will be stored on the apparatus floor (1 per assigned engine) and can be transported on the back step with a simple strap.

Maybe this is something that MTA can help us get for their tracks in our region. Many of us have problem locations (the Peekskill one is probably the worst).

Barry

This is why I started this thread. All the BS about missing training bulletins and who should be responsible for the training, that someone posted earlier in this thread, is crap. The training is there, you need look for it instead of waiting for it to come to you. Take any class that's available and be a "Sponge". I believe the WDES is in the process of getting a few of those hand carts that are shown in the picture from Belgium. Still, stabilization of rail cars in those hard to reach areas is a major issue. We can't start the removal process until we stabilize. We can't rely on the cars that are wrecked stabilizing each other. I'm still trying to come with ideas for remote access areas and open to any suggestions. The FDNY electric car is a good idea if there is power to run it. Does it have a battery back-up?

Mike

[LTFIREPRG 154]

Barry

This is why I started this thread. All the BS about missing training bulletins and who should be responsible for the training, that someone posted earlier in this thread, is crap. The training is there, you need look for it instead of waiting for it to come to you. Take any class that's available and be a "Sponge". I believe the WDES is in the process of getting a few of those hand carts that are shown in the picture from Belgium. Still, stabilization of rail cars in those hard to reach areas is a major issue. We can't start the removal process until we stabilize. We can't rely on the cars that are wrecked stabilizing each other. I'm still trying to come with ideas for remote access areas and open to any suggestions. The FDNY electric car is a good idea if there is power to run it. Does it have a battery back-up?

Mike

Mike,

The cart runs on batteries not AC. For the most part it is really used; the hand carts are used do to the ease of getting them into the subway. I’m sending you an e-mail shortly.

Paul

[dragonrescue 28]

Yes they do conduct training and if I remember correctly they do it on a rotating basis within municipalities that have stations on their lines. What I'm about to discuss is in no way a dig at the MTA and the drills conducted, but the way in which they are conducted. Which I'm not saying anything knew as I grew up around Spanky and have discussed this with him at length.

First...why is it that when there are deficiencies noted in an area of responsibility for an agency often the comments are we need a drill...train us!!? Has anyone requested additional training through the MTA? Has anyone sat down and taken a hard look at their SOP/SOG's for response to an event involving the railroad in their area? Do you even have any? Want the training? Do what you need to get it! If you sit around waiting...then your part of the problem. There are things that can be done with good input from the resources within the MTA, and there are things you can do on your own which involves again SOP/SOG review, doing table tops of incidents at various points within your area, which leads me to my next point.

If you are going to have a drill in your area involving the MTA. Try to be realistic. I have been involved or part of a couple of drills over the past couple of years and I can't believe how unrealistic many departments both fire and EMS operate during them. How can you realistically judge where you are if you were to have an event, when you staff apparatus by filling every seat when that hardly ever if not never happens during your normal day to day operations? Or you don't allow your members to park their cars in the area, but again realistically, they are going to show up with the blue and green light parade along with the y'all comers to take pictures, video, or to "assist," and park all over potentially choking the area for needed space for ambulance entry/exit, triage/treatment areas, additional apparatus, etc. How long is it going to take to get a good compliment of personnel of both fire and ems to the scene? How long will it take to get a good amount of ambulances? Do you have pre-established staging areas? Landing zones? Multiple Landing zones if you may need multiple medevacs? Control zones to keep civilians and if need be additional responders out of the immediate area if the scene becomes overwhelmed with too many resources? An area for the press? Established PIO's to disseminate information?

There are things that can be planned and exercised long before train cars are filled up with fake smoke or simulated a catastrophic event that can pave the way to future successful exercises and god forbidding a true event. Many of us on the Hudson Line have training stations with extremely limited access and egress that could make an event with a large amount of patients difficult to coordinate....so in the meantime while your awaiting a drill from the MTA...

what have you done?

I posted this earlier:

Anthony Tester is "Right On"! I would like to make a proposal. I think a table top training evolution involving all agencies and their top brass in Westchester is a must. If we need to, we could do all career chief's first and then the volunteers (hopefully we can play nice in the sand box and do it together). SOP's/SOG's can be established from this exercise. The County could sponsor it (I will start making phone calls on Monday) and follow it up with an MCI drill with all agencies. If this proves successful, we could do this on a bi-annual basis and prepare for other emergencies that would require multi-agencies. The Hudson, in my opinion, is another accident waiting to happen. I'm open for more of your excellent feedback and suggestions..........

Hopefully we can get it to fly!

[dragonrescue 28]

Mike,

The cart runs on batteries not AC. For the most part it is really used; the hand carts are used do to the ease of getting them into the subway. I’m sending you an e-mail shortly.

Paul

10-4!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I posted this earlier:

Anthony Tester is "Right On"! I would like to make a proposal. I think a table top training evolution involving all agencies and their top brass in Westchester is a must. If we need to, we could do all career chief's first and then the volunteers (hopefully we can play nice in the sand box and do it together). SOP's/SOG's can be established from this exercise. The County could sponsor it (I will start making phone calls on Monday) and follow it up with an MCI drill with all agencies. If this proves successful, we could do this on a bi-annual basis and prepare for other emergencies that would require multi-agencies. The Hudson, in my opinion, is another accident waiting to happen. I'm open for more of your excellent feedback and suggestions..........

Hopefully we can get it to fly!

I would like that as well Mike and in fact have mentioned having a city/town/village mock up dedicated somewhere on campus to do different table top scenarios. Much like the "Abbottville" set up that has been at the Firehouse Expo in Baltimore.

While its nice in theory that its Spank's problem in practice depending on where he is or other resources...its my problem. Just as what resources they have? Local FD, local PD, local EMS and when the crap hits the fan or doesn't go well I'm quite sure that we'll have teflon. Not.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The responders in those areas that are accessable only by water should be preplanning resources for a MCI in those places. Now is the time to work these things out. You will probably need private resources form a distance...maybe something like NY Water Taxi, with a 1 hr response time. Also, you can't just Say we'll use NY water Taxi. The resource has to be agreeable beforehand before you can consider it a resource.

The reason I said we need to use vehicles up the rails, is because much of the water area is rocky, shallow and the boats that would be needed (size wise) can not get anywhere close. Plus a portion of the year its either frozzen or boats are not in the water. Plus transporting by water is much slower.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The cart runs on batteries not AC. For the most part it is really used; the hand carts are used do to the ease of getting them into the subway. I’m sending you an e-mail shortly.

Thanks Paul, that was what I ment, but was not clear. I think the cart would be more useful in Westchester than in the subways, Maybe one in Croton, 1 in No WP and 1 in Stamford?