Firematic Coverage During Parades?

[JFLYNN 681]

We have previously established the fact that many departments in the area have a real tough time with having an adequate number of trained firefighters able to cover incidents in their jurisdiction. In light of this, I would be interested to know with as much specificity as possible, what type of preplans various departments have made to ensure that when members and apparatus participate in a parade in another jurisdiction, there will be no diminution in fire protection during the time these members and apparatus are not available????

[rutola413 5]

I know up in my town. We are 100% percent volunteer. We usually discuss who and what apparatus we will be taking to the parade. The only parades we go to is our own during July 4th, and 3 towns that border us, and it is a 10 minute ride into the town. We ALWAYS let control know that we are taking X amount of trucks to XXX town for a parade, and estimate we will be back at XXXX hours. If it is a parade that is farther away (sometimes we get invited and just don't go), we will have control automatically start another engine or rescue for mutual aid depending on the call. If it is the town over, we usually take Tanker-1, Engine-1, and Ambulance-1. They are staffed with a full crew when they are out. Which leaves E-2, Rescue-1 and brush-1 in town.

[FFLieu 70]

We have previously established the fact that many departments in the area have a real tough time with having an adequate number of trained firefighters able to cover incidents in their jurisdiction. In light of this, I would be interested to know with as much specificity as possible, what type of preplans various departments have made to ensure that when members and apparatus participate in a parade in another jurisdiction, there will be no diminution in fire protection during the time these members and apparatus are not available????

Most places have a signup and it's not like the whole department goes to the parade and leaves their respective district unprotected. What's your beef with Volunteers, anyway?

[JM15 386]

This again?

[FFLieu 70]

We have previously established the fact that many departments in the area have a real tough time with having an adequate number of trained firefighters able to cover incidents in their jurisdiction. In light of this, I would be interested to know with as much specificity as possible, what type of preplans various departments have made to ensure that when members and apparatus participate in a parade in another jurisdiction, there will be no diminution in fire protection during the time these members and apparatus are not available????

Here are the "specifics" Chief. The majority of places have a signup. The majority of places are community-minded, keeping the safety of the residents of their original jurisdiction at heart at all times. That said, the majority of places make sure that their district is covered before going to an extra-jurisdictional affair. So, just because the "jolly vollies" go to attend a parade or a wetdown or whatever, does not necessarily mean that they are shirking their responsibilities.

Edited February 19, 2010 by FFLieu

[KCRD 6]

This again?

Unfortunately this does have to be discussed again. In light of the recent fires with places not being able to get enough interior qualified or even just enough personnel to the scene, I believe the chief raises a great point. Those who provide actual answers to the questions posed, and not just get offended and think they are being attacked, will not have a problem with the chief's questions.

[jack10562 414]

It's a legitimate question given the discussions we've seen regarding adequate trained manpower for responding to fires.

Let's keep the discussion on topic!

Edited February 19, 2010 by jack10562

[mfc2257 464]

We always found that the best way to ensure a timely response is for a fully staffed engine from another department to be put on standby in our quarters while units are out of town as well as implementing a dual response with neighboring department(s) for that time. In addition we let the local PD know that we had a standby crew in quarters so that they could assist in the event that the location of the job was in an odd, confusing area of town.

This means that an immediate response of 6ff's plus a chief officer as well as simultaneously dispatched units from the next jurisdiction will be able to provide adequate staffing.

We of course would return the favor to that department at another time.

[helicopper 1,050]

We always found that the best way to ensure a timely response is for a fully staffed engine from another department to be put on standby in our quarters while units are out of town as well as implementing a dual response with neighboring department(s) for that time. In addition we let the local PD know that we had a standby crew in quarters so that they could assist in the event that the location of the job was in an odd, confusing area of town.

This means that an immediate response of 6ff's plus a chief officer as well as simultaneously dispatched units from the next jurisdiction will be able to provide adequate staffing.

We of course would return the favor to that department at another time.

How does the dual response work when neighboring departments are also in the parade or other activity that ties up personnel and resources.

Great idea to have the PD help with navigating for the guest department - all too often the calls are in strange locations.

Now if a large number of member FF are leaving for the parade and social activities thereafter, how do you insure adequate staffing for the duration of the parade and say the next 12 hours or so?

For local parades, do you have plans that would enable you to pull apparatus and personnel from the parade for the emergency?

[helicopper 1,050]

Are any departments or communities cutting parades or declining to participate because of the fiscal and operational impact they have?

[helicopper 1,050]

Now a moderator note: If you don't like the thread, don't read it. There's no need to bash the thread just because you disagree with it. If we all did that there'd be one or two substantive posts and 20-30 negative ones in a great many threads on the forum. There's just no need for that.

Answer the question if you choose to. Ignore the issue if you choose to. But please don't disrupt the conversation that other people choose to have.

[NWFDMedic 58]

Are any departments or communities cutting parades or declining to participate because of the fiscal and operational impact they have?

When my department goes on a parade, we put a company, usually from out of county, on standby in our quarters and we usually return the favor when they parade. When we go to a parade and (neighboring) Vails Gate goes too, we often put a company on standby in each place and they both respond to alarms in both districts. We also can utilize the assistance of City of Newburgh FD although we try to limit that to confirmed incidents because we know they have a high volume and limited manpower.

As far as the fiscal concerns, we've definitely cut the number of parades we attend, basically to the town Memorial Day, the County Assoc., and the HVVFA. If we take another parade, it will usually be a VERY local department's major anniversary parade. The cost of a parade is downright ridiculous these days.

[JFLYNN 681]

Here are the "specifics" Chief. The majority of places have a signup. The majority of places are community-minded, keeping the safety of the residents of their original jurisdiction at heart at all times. That said, the majority of places make sure that their district is covered before going to an extra-jurisdictional affair. So, just because the "jolly vollies" go to attend a parade or a wetdown or whatever, does not necessarily mean that they are shirking their responsibilities.

Thank you for your opinion. Would it be possible for you to provide any specific, factual information?

[Guest ff101]

My fire Dept. Has sign up sheets put up for members attending and members who will be available for runs. As soon as the parade we are attending ends we return the apparatus back to our district and back in service

If the members wish to stay they can. Is that enough information to get the ball rolling for the next series of questions?

[FFLieu 70]

Thank you for your opinion. Would it be possible for you to provide any specific, factual information?

The fact that I am on the inside of such a volunteer department, with inside knowledge with respect to this rather beaten issue, should be specific enough.

[gamewell45 258]

Thank you for your opinion. Would it be possible for you to provide any specific, factual information?

Flynn, as a suggestion, why don't you contact the chiefs of the departments for the information you need rather then ask for it in this forum? It's quite possible that the people in here don't have all the information that you need or they could end up giving you the wrong information without knowing it.

Edited February 19, 2010 by gamewell45

[JFLYNN 681]

Flynn, as a suggestion, why don't you contact the chiefs of the departments for the information you need rather then ask for it in this forum? It's quite possible that the people in here don't have all the information that you need or they could end up giving you the wrong information without knowing it.

I prefer to do it on here thanks. This way many more people besides me can see the answers, or lack thereof, and thus become informed regarding the extent of this very serious issue.

The silence thus far is deafening. There is much more specific information in the other thread regarding where and when the parades are than in this one. Why do you think that is?

BTW, you can call me John, Johnny, Chief, Mr. Flynn, Flynny, but please don't call me Flynn, it comes across as disrespectful and confrontational, even though I always remember to QTIP.

[Medic5274 45]

The fact that I am on the inside of such a volunteer department, with inside knowledge with respect to this rather beaten issue, should be specific enough.

Parades outside of a departments response jurisdictions are one of the biggest liabilities a chief officer faces every year during parade season. Taking apparatus outside the jurisdiction especially to a municipality on the other side of the county (or to Lake George) is a recipe for disaster. Departments are just setting themselves up for the fall.

With limited manpower available in many departments it is inexcusable to allow apparatus to be taken to a parade by the few firefighters a municipality has available. Making arrangements for mutual aid coverage during a parade is a band aid approach to providing coverage. I can rememebr several years ago responding with my company on mutual aid to a municipality several towns away during the Lake George weekend into a working fire and was one of the first companies to arrive. The muncipality the fire occurred in had several pieces of apparatus and a large number of members up in Lake George

The public and taxpayers we serve and are supported by have an expectation that the fire apparatus and firefighters from their department will respond when the alarm is sounded in their community. The mnicipality or district purchased the fire apparatus (I know some companies own their own rigs) and have entrusted their care and use to the fire department the Fire Chief and firefighters that man them. The apparatus is for emergency response not for parades. It is sad but many departments get more people out for a parade then they do far an alarm.

I love the social and departmental rivalries that are such a part of the fire service and believe stronly that they have their place and time but we have an obligation to serve our communities first. Taking a parade in a neighboring muncipality is an acceptable social event your department can enjoy because you are able to immediately respond back into your jurisdiction with minimal or no impact on response times. Any chief officer that allows apparatus to leave the jurisdiction for a social event or parade hosted in a distant municipality should say a prayer that nothing happens in their jurisdiction during the absence of department apparatus. Additionally, what if something happens in route to or coming home from a parade. How do you explain to taxpayers that the brand new $700,000 dollar apparatus was damaged or destroyed going to a parade?

Chief officers, in this litigous society we live in please think of the liability you assume during a parade before you permit your apparatus to go out of jurisdiction. You can and will be held liable if and when something goes terribly wrong

[gamewell45 258]

IThe silence thus far is deafening. There is much more specific information in the other thread regarding where and when the parades are than in this one. Why do you think that is?

JFlynn (hope thats better), perhaps the deafening silence is because the people who frequent this site don't have the information your seeking? Again, contacting the chiefs of the departments in question and then perhaps posting the results (which will let people know the responses) might help you achieve your goal??

[FFLieu 70]

The silence thus far is deafening. There is much more specific information in the other thread regarding where and when the parades are than in this one. Why do you think that is?

Maybe the so-called "deafening silence" stems from the rather condescending nature of the way the issue was raised. Aside from the fact that it demands information from people as if they are compling some kind of official report for the Almighty, maybe people would rather talk about something other than a dead topic. Maybe volunteers such as myself would rather talk about something other than the ubiquitous threads and posts that make them look less than qualified for their jobs. Maybe we take umbrage at the implication that we care more about parades than public safety. Maybe we just don't care about what you're crying about today.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Truck4

[gamewell45 258]

It is sad but many departments get more people out for a parade then they do far an alarm.

Most people who attend parades plan to do so in advance since they know when its going to occur; its tough to plan for fires as you never know when they are going to occur.

[Guest ff101]

The silence is deafening because people are tired of your anti-volunteer rants and topics. You don't really care about the issues because if you did you would find a better place then emtbravo to get answers.

[JFLYNN 681]

Parades outside of a departments response jurisdictions are one of the biggest liabilities a chief officer faces every year during parade season. Taking apparatus outside the jurisdiction especially to a municipality on the other side of the county (or to Lake George) is a recipe for disaster. Departments are just setting themselves up for the fall.

With limited manpower available in many departments it is inexcusable to allow apparatus to be taken to a parade by the few firefighters a municipality has available. Making arrangements for mutual aid coverage during a parade is a band aid approach to providing coverage. I can rememebr several years ago responding with my company on mutual aid to a municipality several towns away during the Lake George weekend into a working fire and was one of the first companies to arrive. The muncipality the fire occurred in had several pieces of apparatus and a large number of members up in Lake George

The public and taxpayers we serve and are supported by have an expectation that the fire apparatus and firefighters from their department will respond when the alarm is sounded in their community. The mnicipality or district purchased the fire apparatus (I know some companies own their own rigs) and have entrusted their care and use to the fire department the Fire Chief and firefighters that man them. The apparatus is for emergency response not for parades. It is sad but many departments get more people out for a parade then they do far an alarm.

I love the social and departmental rivalries that are such a part of the fire service and believe stronly that they have their place and time but we have an obligation to serve our communities first. Taking a parade in a neighboring muncipality is an acceptable social event your department can enjoy because you are able to immediately respond back into your jurisdiction with minimal or no impact on response times. Any chief officer that allows apparatus to leave the jurisdiction for a social event or parade hosted in a distant municipality should say a prayer that nothing happens in their jurisdiction during the absence of department apparatus. Additionally, what if something happens in route to or coming home from a parade. How do you explain to taxpayers that the brand new $700,000 dollar apparatus was damaged or destroyed going to a parade?

Chief officers, in this litigous society we live in please think of the liability you assume during a parade before you permit your apparatus to go out of jurisdiction. You can and will be held liable if and when something goes terribly wrong

Thanks for making such a thoughtful and informative post.

Do departments from the lower Hudson Valley actually bring their apparatus to Lake George??

[Guest Firediver]

So, since everyone.... well almost everyone LIVES in the area that they volunteer and decides weeks,months, or a year in advance of when they are going to attend a function be it parade, washdown/wetdown etc. Nobody on here knows the process about how their house, apt etc is being covered except the Chief???? For some reason I just can't bring myself to believe that. Wouldn't you like to know who is covering god for bid something happens to yours or a family members house, apt etc.? I would. Maybe someone that sits in the shadows on here would too? Now that it has been brought up I am a bit curious about it. (now I can fade back into the shadows)

Edited February 20, 2010 by Firediver

[BFD1054 1,552]

Parades outside of a departments response jurisdictions are one of the biggest liabilities a chief officer faces every year during parade season. Taking apparatus outside the jurisdiction especially to a municipality on the other side of the county (or to Lake George) is a recipe for disaster. Departments are just setting themselves up for the fall.

With limited manpower available in many departments it is inexcusable to allow apparatus to be taken to a parade by the few firefighters a municipality has available. Making arrangements for mutual aid coverage during a parade is a band aid approach to providing coverage. I can rememebr several years ago responding with my company on mutual aid to a municipality several towns away during the Lake George weekend into a working fire and was one of the first companies to arrive. The muncipality the fire occurred in had several pieces of apparatus and a large number of members up in Lake George

The public and taxpayers we serve and are supported by have an expectation that the fire apparatus and firefighters from their department will respond when the alarm is sounded in their community. The mnicipality or district purchased the fire apparatus (I know some companies own their own rigs) and have entrusted their care and use to the fire department the Fire Chief and firefighters that man them. The apparatus is for emergency response not for parades. It is sad but many departments get more people out for a parade then they do far an alarm.

I love the social and departmental rivalries that are such a part of the fire service and believe stronly that they have their place and time but we have an obligation to serve our communities first. Taking a parade in a neighboring muncipality is an acceptable social event your department can enjoy because you are able to immediately respond back into your jurisdiction with minimal or no impact on response times. Any chief officer that allows apparatus to leave the jurisdiction for a social event or parade hosted in a distant municipality should say a prayer that nothing happens in their jurisdiction during the absence of department apparatus. Additionally, what if something happens in route to or coming home from a parade. How do you explain to taxpayers that the brand new $700,000 dollar apparatus was damaged or destroyed going to a parade?

Chief officers, in this litigous society we live in please think of the liability you assume during a parade before you permit your apparatus to go out of jurisdiction. You can and will be held liable if and when something goes terribly wrong

Wow, thank you. One of the most honest & straight-forward posts I've read in awhile. Bravo & thank you.

It is funny that this topic is pretty quiet. Like many others, perhaps the truth hurts?

Chief Flynn, as always you bring up a great point/question.

I've brought this up within my department many of times until my face turns blue.

I'm lucky to get 5 or 6 guys at our weekly trainings. But some people seem more concerned that we only got 8 or 10 out for a parade. What's wrong with this picture? It makes me sick, its as if many of us have forgotten why we're here.

Hey, I'm all for having fun, but not when its at the cost of the communities safety.

Hey Chief Flynn, ill answer you....YES, many depts go to Lake George EVERY year. Most bring at least 1 piece of apparatus & most of their active firefighters.

Who's left to respond to alarms? Your guess is as good as mine. Mutual-aid? They're at the parade to.

[Guest Firediver]

Bravo Zulu x2 Medic 5274. Oh you too BFD1054. And this is just a suggestion for those who would like to become a Chief at some point in their VFD career, Would it not be better to find out NOW the answers to these questions (parade, washdown, carnival coverage)so you can maybe improve on or add to it when you do become Chief? Or just go with "well thats how we always did it" (not to say it doesn't work now). It's in a way monday moring QB'n for when and if it happens to you. No?

Edited February 19, 2010 by Firediver

[JFLYNN 681]

I'm sorry that you have found my post to be condescending. It wasn't meant to be. I'm also sorry that you feel that I was demanding information. I wasn't. I'm sorry that you feel that this a dead topic. I don't agree. I think it is a current topic and a very important one.

I'm curious about a couple of things I noticed in your post though...first, why do you assume that this is about volunteers or somehow trying to make volunteers look "less than qualified for their jobs"? I never mentioned the word volunteer. I asked a question about fire departments and I was referring to both career as well as volunteer.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Truck4
Off topic comment

[Remember585 815]

I can't speak for any other departments, so I'll stick to ours.

In the past, certain Chiefs were more concerned with our appearance at parades then covering the home turf. This practice is finally over, as our current Chief has already made it clear that covering the home turf is more important than anything. (What a concept!)

We will only be attending parades in our neighboring jurisdictions, and the plan (unless it changes) would be to only send one rig to each parade, with minimal personnel, and keep personnel in quarters / in town to cover calls.

In the past I have responded back to cover calls either in my Chief's car, POV or on an apparatus because of dumb decisions made by "top brass." It's embarassing and it's dangerous.

While it wasn't a parade, we had our Biennial Dinner Dance in January, and we had our own personnel in quarters as well as a Mutual Aid Engine from Montrose to cover calls. This practice is also used when we go out of town for drills. At minimum, we always keep at least one Engine and one Truck staffed in town, whether we're at a drill, parade, etc.

And to answer the question about cost - yes, we looked at that. Some people wanted to do away with all parades, however because we live in an imperfect society, if you don't go to some parades, those Chiefs take it personally then don't call you for anything in the future. Same stuff happens when you don't go to Friendship Nights, etc. For whatever reason, some Chiefs / Departments take it personally and will remove you or move you down on their Mutual Aid plan.

I know others know exactly what I'm talking about. It's all a game - a stupid game - but it does happen!

[psyanide 11]

As a very long time member who usually watches the fireworks, I'll take the bait. Firediver, I certainly hope the people who read this thread are aware of their own department's parade, as well as their out-of-district-event coverage plans. Personally, I absolutely do. I really feel most readers do as well. Here, I will speak only for myself alone. That said, I go to exactly 2 parades per year. Because of my proximity to my FH, I almost always make the first due when able to respond. Because of this, I feel an obligation to know what our coverage plans are. I am a plain non-officer FF. For BOTH parades I make sure I am aware of some sort of coverage that exists, and one always does exist. The coverage plans we work from vary based on day of the week, TIME of the day if it is a weekday, and distance from our town. Out-of-district-coverage plans are written, flexible templates that are adaptable to the situations - but there IS always a plan. All of what I said is generic, common knowledge things I hope/assume are also common sense.

I am aware that several previous posters have asked directly for specifics. Those details are not for me, a plain FF, to give out - which is WHY there is so little detailed response here, nor would I expect them. I would not expect a plain FF to divulge incompletely detailed coverage plan information on an internet public forum. I can personally verify my department's got solid coverage plans, but what they are is not for me to post on a public forum. Because I did not author them, so it is unfair of me to do that, and I would expect most readers feel the exact same way.

[helicopper 1,050]

If you can roster crews and/or staff apparatus in quarters for special events, why can't you do it all the time and insure an adequate and timely response to a fire?

I'm glad some departments are waking up and recognizing that while it can be a fraternal organization, the fire department is first and foremost an emergency service.

Great posts Medic5274, BFD1054, Remember585. Thanks for seeing past the nonsense and responding intelligently to the issue.