Firematic Coverage During Parades?

[ex-commish 490]

I can not speak for my department but I will say way too much equipment goes to these parades. The taxpayers buy equipment to service them, not to win a contest as to who has the best looking rig which in my opinion is ridiculous. Now I am not against a show of pride in fact my favorite parade has always been Memorial Day as we are in town and we are honoring those in the military that have sacrificed thier lives. I do believe that parades are out of hand. JMHO.

[Bnechis 3,961]

How does the dual response work when neighboring departments are also in the parade or other activity that ties up personnel and resources.

In other threads, departments are doing dual response just to get enough players on the field to look like they have a full team. If dual response does not completely cover when everyone is in town, how does it work when each department is running even shorter?

Great idea to have the PD help with navigating for the guest department - all too often the calls are in strange locations.

Good idea, better would be FD guides, who also know water supply and building info.

For local parades, do you have plans that would enable you to pull apparatus and personnel from the parade for the emergency?

Yes, while some here think this is about vol. FD's, New Rochelle does have parades for Thanksgiving & Memorial Day. The T day parade startes north of the High School and travels all the way down to the south end. We start the parade with E-23, L-13, 2302 & R-4 when the parade gets to garden street, E23 & L13 peel off and E-21, E-22, L-11 & L-12 peel in. All rigs are in there 1st or second due area. And there is never a drop in level of service or an increase in response times.

Parades outside of a departments response jurisdictions are one of the biggest liabilities a chief officer faces every year during parade season. Taking apparatus outside the jurisdiction especially to a municipality on the other side of the county (or to Lake George) is a recipe for disaster. Departments are just setting themselves up for the fall.

In addition to the liability for failure to meet service demands, i would think you are proving that some of your fleet may

not be needed, if you can send it out of town. My father (who has nothing to do with emergency services) asked why does every dept. need a tower ladder (he lives in NO. West.), then after taking some of his grand kids to the Ossining Parade, he told me; "now I know, its to compete for a trophy". But what is the cost to the tax payer to buy these units, when the FD figures its ok to take them out of town (sometimes to a dozen parades).

On the same note, I can understand (and love) when a dept has a historical rig that goes to parades, but when you buy the brand new latest & greatest and told the mayor or tax payers that your community cant live without it, how can you take it away from them?

With limited manpower available in many departments it is inexcusable to allow apparatus to be taken to a parade by the few firefighters a municipality has available. Making arrangements for mutual aid coverage during a parade is a band aid approach to providing coverage. I can rememebr several years ago responding with my company on mutual aid to a municipality several towns away during the Lake George weekend into a working fire and was one of the first companies to arrive. The muncipality the fire occurred in had several pieces of apparatus and a large number of members up in Lake George

It has been argued that mutual aid in general does not provide the level of protection normally. In fact ISO does not recognize or give credit for mutual aid and even automatic aid is only credited at 90% (with multiple drills and sops)because they realize its not as good.

The apparatus is for emergency response not for parades. It is sad but many departments get more people out for a parade then they do far an alarm.....Chief officers, in this litigous society we live in please think of the liability you assume during a parade before you permit your apparatus to go out of jurisdiction. You can and will be held liable if and when something goes terribly wrong

Very True. While its a long time ago and liability has changed, I remember a volunteer (who regularly posts here) returning from a parade on the back step of a rig and he almost stepped off to get his hat, they were on 684 at the time. Today that would have resulted in a multi million dollar law suit. Note Its not that he is worth it, just what his wife could get for his body.

JFlynn (hope thats better), perhaps the deafening silence is because the people who frequent this site don't have the information your seeking? Again, contacting the chiefs of the departments in question

If people do not know how there own depts function, then we one bshould not bother the chief as he has a lot of work to do....teaching his firefighters how they cover the district when its parade season.

Most people who attend parades plan to do so in advance since they know when its going to occur; its tough to plan for fires as you never know when they are going to occur.

If anyone actually believes this, then this is the justification for mandatory in house rostering of crews, since you need to provide service and you never know when an incident will occur, you can schedule the crews to be there when it does happen.

It is funny that this topic is pretty quiet. Like many others, perhaps the truth hurts? ..... Hey Chief Flynn, ill answer you....YES, many depts go to Lake George EVERY year. Most bring at least 1 piece of apparatus & most of their active firefighters. Who's left to respond to alarms? Your guess is as good as mine. Mutual-aid? They're at the parade to.

They must be very proud of these activities, maybe they should have press releases to let the taxpayers know and then the can be as proud also.

[FFLieu 70]

As for the rest, you know why I picked up on the undercurrents of volunteerism; a majority of your posts have to do with issues or supposed issues that are only resident within the volunteer system. (Response times, staffing levels, and the implications that a regionalized and consolidated - and no doubt career - department would better serve those in the Northern areas of Westchester county [the volunteer districts], to name a few.) While you didn't explicitly use the word "volunteer," you didn't have to; anyone who has ever read any of your past posts and then read this thread knows exactly what you were getting at.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Truck4
off topic comment

[gamewell45 258]

If people do not know how there own depts function, then we one bshould not bother the chief as he has a lot of work to do....teaching his firefighters how they cover the district when its parade season.

If anyone actually believes this, then this is the justification for mandatory in house rostering of crews, since you need to provide service and you never know when an incident will occur, you can schedule the crews to be there when it does happen.

You missed the entire thrust of the post . What may work for you in New Rochelle may not work for other departments.

[Guest Firediver]

Regardless of WHO is asking these questions about response times, staffing levels, parade coverage etc. there ARE problems both career and volunteer. Isn't the ultimate goal making the Fire Service BETTER in the end? either Career or Volunteer fire is fire and seconds count, period. Not everyone on here is well versed in EVERY aspect of the career, volunteer Fire/EMS communities, I for one am not and do take a very small interest on how the other side works. Questions are asked b/c there IS a problem and some on here have confirmed this. I do not believe in the "If we don't talk about a problem, it's not really there" attitude. Bottom Line is it does not matter WHO asks the questions (b/c there are no stupid/dumb questions) it's not about "YOU"! never was and never will be, hence the QTIP saying thrown around here.(This post is not directed towards an specific persons or job.JMO)

Edited February 20, 2010 by Firediver

[MoFire390 118]

i have to say after reading some of these posts i have found that its making me upset. I am one of those people who loves nothing more then walking down a croweded street with the band infront jammin their hearts out. I am also the same person who would do anything to help a member of the community (as long as it doesnt involve snakes..trying to add some humor sorry.) in any way i can. of course i am a young buck i enjoy the pride i have putting on my uniform and marching down the street behind OLD GLORY and the company flag. it always gives me the reminder of why i joined the firehouse and why im doing what im doing. ive heard some people say that parades are a waste of taxpayers money, that they give good firefighters bad names, that they are a waste of time flat out. but i ask what about the social aspect?? meeting members of other departments that you may need one day to help u at a call?? who joined the fire/ems service to help their communtites as well?? arent we all in the same brother/sister hood??

Chief flynn, maybe its because some of us like to go take pictures of the equipment that is comming down the road, or maybe taking our famlies to watch, or maybe its catching up with old friends who u havent seen...no one knows the answers...atleast i know i dont...

[Guest]

I've been out of N.Y. for quite a while, but I remember that there were some departments that used to put a tremendous amount of effort into parades. They would leave their district with a skeleton crew or no crew and no automatic mutual aid in place. If there was a skeleton crew on call, often it was comprised of some elderly (no longer interior) firefighters and a newly promoted line officer who had very little experience commanding an incident. It was the practice of these departments to place more importance on having as many members in the line of march as possible than it was to have a crew of properly trained and capable firefighters and EMT's available to handle any emergency that might arise in the department's response area. There were times when serious calls received seriously delayed responses. There was one incident where a fatality resulted.

Having pride in your department is a great thing. There is nothing wrong with participating in a parade or a convention. It is essential though that chiefs insure that their response area will be appropriately covered while the department participates in a function that places them out of their response area.

[ny10570 745]

First off, I love the parades. They are not a waste of taxpayer funds as a large portion of the community turns out to these events. However few depts make real provisions for coverage. Most, while they limit the number of rigs leaving town fail to address staffing issues. If the chief is so off base with his questions then a quick cascade of responses showing the coverage will quick shut him up. Personally I enjoy shutting people up who spout off with misinformed accusations. attacking the person asking the question rather than the question leaves an impression that he's right and you are all just getting defensive.

[JFLYNN 681]

As for the rest, you know why I picked up on the undercurrents of volunteerism; a majority of your posts have to do with issues or supposed issues that are only resident within the volunteer system. (Response times, staffing levels, and the implications that a regionalized and consolidated - and no doubt career - department would better serve those in the Northern areas of Westchester county [the volunteer districts], to name a few.) While you didn't explicitly use the word "volunteer," you didn't have to; anyone who has ever read any of your past posts and then read this thread knows exactly what you were getting at.

This tactic of attempting to portray me as anti-volunteer and to make this personal has been tried on here several times before and it's not going to work for you. I have many friends and acquaintances who are volunteer firefighters and there are many other volunteer firefighters who are members of this site who I may not have had the pleasure of meeting, however we respect each others positions on various issues.

I volunteer myself for several worthy causes and I believe the spirit of volunteerism is one of the things which has made this country great.

You mention that a majority of my posts "have to do with issues or supposed issues that are only resident within the volunteer system"...well, which are they, issues or supposed issues? If they are issues, lets discuss them and try to rectify them. If they are supposed issues (non-issues) refute me with facts, don't make personal attacks and try to deflect attention away from the issue.

As far as your allegation that I am posting for the purpose of creating a career department in Northern Westchester, we are a looong way away from that, so don't worry. I'm more interested in supporting the efforts of the Southern Westchester career departments in regard to consolidation and regionalization, and in pushing Westchester County volunteer departments to be more transparent and accountable, and yes, to consolidate and regionalize- as volunteers.

Of course, I have no illusions that I will change your viewpoint. I respond to your allegations and attempts at "blame shifting" not because I think you will see the light. Rather, I know that there are many reasonable, open minded people who read this site who, given the proper information, will eventually be agents of positive change for our fire service.

Oh yeah, I ask these questions because I learn things from the answers too...I thought I knew the extent of this very serious problem when I mad my original post, but I now realize that it is far more serious (and ridiculous) than I ever would have imagined...(numerous departments actually bring several apparatus and most of their active members to LAKE GEORGE?? Wow.)

qtip

[gamewell45 258]

Oh yeah, I ask these questions because I learn things from the answers too...I thought I knew the extent of this very serious problem when I mad my original post, but I now realize that it is far more serious (and ridiculous) than I ever would have imagined...(numerous departments actually bring several apparatus and most of their active members to LAKE GEORGE?? Wow.)

qtip

Well JFlynn, It just goes to show that you can learn something new everyday. Bet your glad you started this thread aren't you?? This is certainly earth-shattering news; maybe you should contact your local television station; maybe it'll make the 11 O'clock news!

[fireguy43 35]

Chief- pains me to say it, but I couldn't agree with you more. Back when I started in the FD in the '70's, there were numerous departments that would send a truck to Lake George on Wednesday for a Saturday parade. The truck would sit in the hotel parking lot for 4-5 days while the guys took over large sections of the hotel. Never understood how they got away with having a rig out of service for days at a time. And yes, no offense, but the ones I remember most were from the river towns of Westchester.

However, that being said, you mention that people have attempted to "portray" you as "anti-volunteer" on the site "several times". C'mon, Chief, first of all, it's more than "several". The "who, me?" act isn't working too well. Your interrogatories are full of sarcasm, more than a touch of arrogance (I have to admit that I chuckled when I read your boast about how your name on a thread could boost the number of views) and while you hide behind your "QTIP", you take others rebuttals very personally and respond defensively. If there was one or two people that felt you were "anti-volunteer", then maybe it's them, but when there are "numerous" accusations, it may just be that there is a little truth to what they are saying.

[16fire5 693]

i have to say after reading some of these posts i have found that its making me upset. I am one of those people who loves nothing more then walking down a croweded street with the band infront jammin their hearts out. I am also the same person who would do anything to help a member of the community (as long as it doesnt involve snakes..trying to add some humor sorry.) in any way i can. of course i am a young buck i enjoy the pride i have putting on my uniform and marching down the street behind OLD GLORY and the company flag. it always gives me the reminder of why i joined the firehouse and why im doing what im doing. ive heard some people say that parades are a waste of taxpayers money, that they give good firefighters bad names, that they are a waste of time flat out. but i ask what about the social aspect?? meeting members of other departments that you may need one day to help u at a call?? who joined the fire/ems service to help their communtites as well?? arent we all in the same brother/sister hood??

Chief flynn, maybe its because some of us like to go take pictures of the equipment that is comming down the road, or maybe taking our famlies to watch, or maybe its catching up with old friends who u havent seen...no one knows the answers...atleast i know i dont...

Bro,

Reread the chief's original post. Nowhere is having pride in service to your community or parades discussed in a negative way. The question is how do communities ensure adequete protection when they attend out of town parades? Remember QTIP? Career firefighters march in parades too. I always enjoy Marching up 5th in mid March. Sometimes I just have to find someone who's name ends in a vowel to work for me so I can assure coverage. Again QTIP. Pride and esprit de corp are just as important in career firehouses. Think about it we spend 24 hours together in close quarters.

[helicopper 1,050]

As for the rest, you know why I picked up on the undercurrents of volunteerism; a majority of your posts have to do with issues or supposed issues that are only resident within the volunteer system. (Response times, staffing levels, and the implications that a regionalized and consolidated - and no doubt career - department would better serve those in the Northern areas of Westchester county [the volunteer districts], to name a few.) While you didn't explicitly use the word "volunteer," you didn't have to; anyone who has ever read any of your past posts and then read this thread knows exactly what you were getting at.

Response times, staffing levels, and the benefits of regionalization and/or consolidation are not unique to the volunteer fire community. The study completed at the behest of the Career Chief's Association addressed all those issues in 10 career (or combination) departments - but not any volunteer departments. Frankly, I don't see an all career FD in northern Westchester happening ever and I've never heard anyone say that is the answer. If these same points were raised by a volunteer chief would there be such an uproar (or would you just take away his secret decoder ring )?

The issues are the issues. The sensitivity to them seems to be exacerabated when they're brought up by a career chief. For some reason, and diagnosing this is for another thread, most of the volunteer officers seem to be content with what they've got instead of advocating for improvement.

Can we at least agree that there are issues (like response times, staffing levels, and other things) that need to be addressed?

[flyboy14295 4]

So here's the simple question. If you love both marching down the street AND protecting the community you serve, what activity do you place higher on the priority list...

That being said, because everyone's answer is going to be protecting the community(if it isn't, you joined for all the wrong reasons, associate membership is that way =>), what happens when your community ISN'T adequately covered, just because you wanted to go marching down the street in hopes of winning a trophy?

But remember, you joined to protect the community...

[gamewell45 258]

So here's the simple question. If you love both marching down the street AND protecting the community you serve, what activity do you place higher on the priority list...

That being said, because everyone's answer is going to be protecting the community(if it isn't, you joined for all the wrong reasons, associate membership is that way =>), what happens when your community ISN'T adequately covered, just because you wanted to go marching down the street in hopes of winning a trophy?

But remember, you joined to protect the community...

Using your analogy, we could never leave town. not to shop, nor to visit relatives, nor go to work if you work outside of town, go to the movies...etc because we joined to protect the community. That's not what i joined the fire service for. I have other obligations and responsibilities aside from the fire department.

[KCRD 6]

"However, that being said, you mention that people have attempted to "portray" you as "anti-volunteer" on the site "several times". C'mon, Chief, first of all, it's more than "several". The "who, me?" act isn't working too well. Your interrogatories are full of sarcasm, more than a touch of arrogance (I have to admit that I chuckled when I read your boast about how your name on a thread could boost the number of views) and while you hide behind your "QTIP", you take others rebuttals very personally and respond defensively. If there was one or two people that felt you were "anti-volunteer", then maybe it's them, but when there are "numerous" accusations, it may just be that there is a little truth to what they are saying."

It occurred to me while reading this thread that only career members are bashed for having raised concerns over this issue. There have been a few brave volunteers who agreed and said there are issues regarding manning but not a word is said about them. Apparently its okay for one of our own(vollies) to point out faults, but when someone from the evil otherside (career) says them, they are classified as "anti-volly" and other such things. I applaud these brave few, JFLYNN and others for shedding light on these issues so some of us less-informed can learn.

[IMAFF 2]

Same problem different scenario?

Does anyone see a problem if a department takes 75 percent of its apparatus and 60 to 75 percent of its interior qualified firefighters a few miles out of the district to go to the training center for three hours of training? Are we also leaving our district understaffed/undermanned?

BTW- this is in no way defending understaffing a community for parades.

Just like to hear what others think.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Does anyone see a problem if a department takes 75 percent of its apparatus and 60 to 75 percent of its interior qualified firefighters a few miles out of the district to go to the training center for three hours of training? Are we also leaving our district understaffed/undermanned?

Yes this is a problem, but the solution is easy. When there is a parade and every dept in the area is out of district, coverage is a huge problem, when one dept goes out of service for a dinner, training, a funeral etc. it can easily arainge for coverage from its MA partners.

Also, training, particularly Multi unit drills are critical to improving the departments ability to function effecinetly and effectivly at an emergency. Parades may be good for pride, but they do not improve the FD's ability to do its primary mission.

[FFLieu 70]

Can we at least agree that there are issues (like response times, staffing levels, and other things) that need to be addressed?

There may be issues, but that's not totally my beef. Ever hear of the phrase, "it's not really what you say, but how you say it?" When a person consistently comes online to hammer the same general topics over and over and over and over again, all with a perceived arrogance within the tone of the questions posed ("give me facts," "I want specifics," "I want to know," "I want, I want, I want, give me, give me, give me," etc. and not "thanks for what you do, but I have a question regarding x issue"), it is going to rankle feathers. Yes, I made a couple of "snide" remarks, mainly because this baby crap-on-the-vollies-because-they're-not-truly-part-of-the-brotherhood stuff that has proliferated on here ad-nauseum needs to stop. Every last post of his is nit-picky on the part of the volunteers and after reading it day in and day out, I finally said something. As a volunteer, I take great pride in what I do and I have an awful lot of respect for the people who volunteer in their community, doing so not for a paycheck, but because they want to help their fellow neighbor. Now, just like how I would probably encounter the crapstorm of a lifetime if I came on here and consistently had something nit-picky to say about career guys - for instance maybe saying something like how career fire fighters sit around all day watching TV, doing nothing except waiting for the next job to come in (which, for the record is NOT my belief) - I think it should work the other way, too. QTIPs generally only go so far until they start invading the brain, at which time they usually become rather irritating.

[Guest ff101]

It occurred to me while reading this thread that only career members are bashed for having raised concerns over this issue. There have been a few brave volunteers who agreed and said there are issues regarding manning but not a word is said about them. Apparently its okay for one of our own(vollies) to point out faults, but when someone from the evil otherside (career) says them, they are classified as "anti-volly" and other such things. I applaud these brave few, JFLYNN and others for shedding light on these issues so some of us less-informed can learn.

I'm pretty sure most people on this site can agree there are issues with response times and staffing. We can talk about it on emtbravo all day long. Until its brought up in a venue where the right people see it don't expect a change.

[KCRD 6]

I'm pretty sure most people on this site can agree there are issues with response times and staffing. We can talk about it on emtbravo all day long. Until its brought up in a venue where the right people see it don't expect a change.

I'm sure it does get brought up in other venues as well, but there are plenty of people that are on this site that live in the affected areas. If enough "x" department members start to realize there are issues, they can begin the process of changing their own departments for the better. As someone who lives in southern westchester, there is no way I can change a nothern west department's policies. That needs to start from within. Also, as Healz pointed out in another thread, there is fear of retripution for speaking out about problems. A "lone wolf" can be dealt with, but a chief or board of comm cant take on the whole pack.

[KCRD 6]

("give me facts," "I want specifics,")

Since when is asking for facts or specifics arrogance? If you make a claim about the service you provide or qualification you have, you should also be able to back up that claim with facts. An attorney has to provide facts to back up the things they say in court. They cant just tell the jury "he's innocent because I say so" Also, this thread was started with no particular department being singled out, but a few have taken offense. Why is that? Others provided answers and it was left at that.

"thanks for what you do, but I have a question regarding x issue"),

Why should someone be thanked for providing an inferior service (career or vollie)? Should a chief say to a taxpayer " you should thank us, we made a great stop and saved the foundation"

[FFLieu 70]

("give me facts," "I want specifics,")

Since when is asking for facts or specifics arrogance? If you make a claim about the service you provide or qualification you have, you should also be able to back up that claim with facts. An attorney has to provide facts to back up the things they say in court. They cant just tell the jury "he's innocent because I say so" Also, this thread was started with no particular department being singled out, but a few have taken offense. Why is that? Others provided answers and it was left at that.

"thanks for what you do, but I have a question regarding x issue"),

Why should someone be thanked for providing an inferior service (career or vollie)? Should a chief say to a taxpayer " you should thank us, we made a great stop and saved the foundation"

If I came up in your face and consistently asked for the above, I'm willing to bet that you'd tell me exactly where I could go. And who are you to say that anyone other than yourself or members of your own department are providing an inferior service? Are you at every other fire that occurs, critiquing them in the instant moment, or do you rely solely on what you read in an effort to call another department's response and service shoddy? See? This is the exact core of the problem that I raised. Unless you're at every single instance of a fire, which is impossible, then you cannot beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt say that anyone other than yourself provided any kind of service, good or bad.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And who are you to say that anyone other than yourself or members of your own department are providing an inferior service? Are you at every other fire that occurs, critiquing them in the instant moment, or do you rely solely on what you read in an effort to call another department's response and service shoddy? See? This is the exact core of the problem that I raised. Unless you're at every single instance of a fire, which is impossible, then you cannot beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt say that anyone other than yourself provided any kind of service, good or bad.

1) Can you show which post or posts have been claiming that any department (by name, type or community) is inferior?

2) Cheif Flynn asked about coverage and found out that some depts go to Lake george and later on found that they go for 4 days. Again, does this claim they are providing shoddy service? If they are covering there districts then the only question is do they tell the taxpayers that this is something the dept spends there tax money on?

3) Do you really need to go to every fire to know if a dept is doing a good job? Or can you listen to 60 Control toning them out for the 3rd time for any available driver, or see here that it took 5 departments to respond to a 1 line fire? Or look at there state fire training records (which are available to every MTO) and see that there are depts that are not even meeting the minimum standards that the law requires. Or looking at the ISO ratings that show how many depts are scoring 20% on an open book test (at last count i think it was 32 depts in Westchester that were ISO 9 or Partial 9).

[FFLieu 70]

1) Can you show which post or posts have been claiming that any department (by name, type or community) is inferior?

2) Cheif Flynn asked about coverage and found out that some depts go to Lake george and later on found that they go for 4 days. Again, does this claim they are providing shoddy service? If they are covering there districts then the only question is do they tell the taxpayers that this is something the dept spends there tax money on?

3) Do you really need to go to every fire to know if a dept is doing a good job? Or can you listen to 60 Control toning them out for the 3rd time for any available driver, or see here that it took 5 departments to respond to a 1 line fire? Or look at there state fire training records (which are available to every MTO) and see that there are depts that are not even meeting the minimum standards that the law requires. Or looking at the ISO ratings that show how many depts are scoring 20% on an open book test (at last count i think it was 32 depts in Westchester that were ISO 9 or Partial 9).

1.) See KCRD's post from 11:11 this morning. He says it, using the word inferior. I raised that issue back at him.

2.) See KCRD's post from 11:11 this morning. Again, he uses the word inferior. I substituted the word shoddy in this instance.

3.) Who appointed you, JFlynn, or your respective "boys" the judges and juries with respect to how a department other than your own is doing? Don't you think that's the business of each other departments' Chiefs, Board of Fire Commissioners, Members, and most importantly, residents themselves? Unless you or a loved one lives in a district that you know provides inferior service (again, KCRD's word), why is there the constant gripe about what the volunteers do, their staffing issues, their response times, and all the other bullcrap? I've met paid guys who are worth their salt and I've met volunteers who are worth their salt. Conversely, I've met some paid guys who are pretty useless and I've met some volunteers who are pretty useless. That said, no one can paint the opposing side with a broad brush. And that includes coming on here and demanding to know answers to questions that have been killed ten times over in the past. How would you like it if I listened to 60 one day when you were getting slammed and I came on here to raise questions about YOUR department? I'm pretty sure it would piss you off. And I'm pretty sure it would piss you off if I came on here every third day to talk smack - in general - about your "brothers." We all put the wet stuff on the red stuff, we're all "brothers;" who gives a flying crap what side of the line we're on, and who gives a flying crap about a parade? Don't you think department leadership is responsible enough to maybe perhaps CANCEL their participation in the particular parade if it came to light that their immediate jurisdiction was left short? Nobody ever mentioned that, now did they?

[KCRD 6]

3.) Who appointed you, JFlynn, or your respective "boys" the judges and juries with respect to how a department other than your own is doing? Don't you think that's the business of each other departments' Chiefs, Board of Fire Commissioners, Members, and most importantly, residents themselves? Unless you or a loved one lives in a district that you know provides inferior service (again, KCRD's word), why is there the constant gripe about what the volunteers do, their staffing issues, their response times, and all the other bullcrap? I've met paid guys who are worth their salt and I've met volunteers who are worth their salt. Conversely, I've met some paid guys who are pretty useless and I've met some volunteers who are pretty useless. That said, no one can paint the opposing side with a broad brush. And that includes coming on here and demanding to know answers to questions that have been killed ten times over in the past. How would you like it if I listened to 60 one day when you were getting slammed and I came on here to raise questions about YOUR department? I'm pretty sure it would piss you off. And I'm pretty sure it would piss you off if I came on here every third day to talk smack - in general - about your "brothers." We all put the wet stuff on the red stuff, we're all "brothers;" who gives a flying crap what side of the line we're on, and who gives a flying crap about a parade? Don't you think department leadership is responsible enough to maybe perhaps CANCEL their participation in the particular parade if it came to light that their immediate jurisdiction was left short? Nobody ever mentioned that, now did they?

Holy wow!!! Someone is taking this very personnally. My comments were meant for every department that provides Shoddy service. Never once did I mention or infer to volunteers. It was for both sides. There have many threads that bashed Mt Vernon manpower issues they face. Its not the guys on the lines fault. Its the Mayors. Their abuse of the mutual-aid system is well documented. Both career and volly members spoke on this issue. The constant gripe pertains to those places that seem to have a systemic problem of not having to be retoned and mutual aid called. If your department is not one these, than why does it bother you?

Now to address some of your points:

1. Its not up to those people you mentioned because most of those people in charge dont want to admit there is a problem.

That would require change and we cant have that. The travesty. The average citizen is also clueless when it comes to this. They are not given the correct info, because if they were, change would've happened already.

2. For the record, I do have loved ones that live in Northern West, Rockland, and CT, so I feel it is my right to be concerned about the the coverage they are recieving. Wether its Fire or EMS.

3. I invite you to listen to the our departments tones and point out flaws. We have some very open-minded chiefs that read this site and would take your objective criticism under consideration. (except JFLYNN -cause he would take it personnal )

4. It has already been pointed out that by this thread that some depts have placed parades and other events above good service.

5. Once everone is trained to same level and there is 1 standard for all, there will only be 1 side. The career vs Vollie arguement will be dead because response times are the same, skills are the same, and most importantly, the public will be better served by US.

[Guest Firediver]

The great thing about this site is that if you do not like a particular thread "DON'T READ IT"! Nobody is holding a weapon to your head making you read this thread! or are they? Would there still be negative comments if the question was not from a career Chief? Maybe? With the exception of a few posts about personal feelings on parades no one has made a post directed at anothers pride for being in parades. And with respect FF101, How do you know exactly who reads these threads as a visitor? Sure we can see Bravo members who visited at the bottom but there is no way of knowing who has browsed and sent the link along to the "right" people as you put it, is there? Anything is possible. It is pretty funny as I sit in the shadows reading various threads, KCRD brought up a good point, when a career guy asks a question regarding the volunteer side he is considered a hater/basher, but when a volunteer asks a question he is inindated with info from career guys a majority of the time. But I guess thats how we lower-Westchester Elitists are, just plain foolss to give out info especially is it's not Big City certified.

To everyone that answered the questions, Thanks. This thread has turned off topic- I'm out

Edited February 20, 2010 by Firediver

[MoFire390 118]

has anyone gone and started thinking that retones are part of the departments assignment procedure????

[KCRD 6]

FFLieu

"Seems like those lower-Westchester elitists are the first to say QTIP, but are also the first to cry when the shoe is on the other foot. I guess they can dish it but they cannot take it. Either way, they're fools."

For clarification purposes only, can you explain this? As an elitist, I can not comprehend. When has anyone cried? A simple question asked of everyone, not just vollies, and some provided good explanantions. Others get mad. Im confused.

[Guest ff101]

The great thing about this site is that if you do not like a particular thread "DON'T READ IT"! Nobody is holding a weapon to your head making you read this thread! or are they? Would there still be negative comments if the question was not from a career Chief? Maybe? With the exception of a few posts about personal feelings on parades no one has made a post directed at anothers pride for being in parades. And with respect FF101, How do you know exactly who reads these threads as a visitor? Sure we can see Bravo members who visited at the bottom but there is no way of knowing who has browsed and sent the link along to the "right" people as you put it, is there? Anything is possible. It is pretty funny as I sit in the shadows reading various threads, KCRD brought up a good point, when a career guy asks a question regarding the volunteer side he is considered a hater/basher, but when a volunteer asks a question he is inindated with info from career guys a majority of the time. But I guess thats how we lower-Westchester Elitists are, just plain foolss to give out info especially is it's not Big City certified.

To everyone that answered the questions, Thanks. This thread has turned off t

Did you expect the thread to stay on topic? With the question asked it is bound to boil over into a vollie- career topic ESP.when asked by a career chief. Its no secret that some career firefighters have a lot to say about parades. From this topic to all the tower ladders with big chrome rims. As I stated earlier if anyone is really concerned about ALL of the issues being brought up on this site then don't limit them to this site. Your right I don't know who views these topics, maybe it will help a little maybe it wont. Oh and by the way I am in a lower Westchester Dept.