How Do You Suggest We Deal With This Type Of Membership Issue?

[x635 4,066]

Members,

Recently, some of you have contacted me concerning some membership issues.

One of the main complaints is members who are critical of incidents based on Incident Alerts, or like to disect issues.

I'm not sure how to handle this one, so I'm turning to you....the members. Some of the members complained about make valid points, and are blunt about it, which can be mistaken. However, as I will mention in a moment, we believe some of these posts are to "break balls".

However, many members get defensive, or these types of threads create tension amongst the membership, often turning members off from posting on this forum.

Now, do we censor these members posts? Do we ban these members, or restrict their posting? I know these posts offend a lot of members, and some get very defensive and make accusations towards these forums, but at the same time, if a member is not violating any rules, how can squash a discussion? We want to be fair and objective, but there is a fine line between discussing an incident, and purposely "breaking balls".

After talking with some upper level staff members, we don't feel it's fair for certain members to attack every volunteer job. We have a large membership of both career and volunteer firefighters, and want to breed a healthy atmosphere where things can be discussed in a positive, respectful, and constructive way. We want members to be able to discuss incidents in healthy ways, and not feel like they have to defend themselves. I feel the majority of people on here want to do the best job they can, and try to. Discussing larger issues that are often above the heads of most first responders at incidents really don't do anything on this forum, unless it's a major issues that directly affects first responders. Discussing tatics and lessons learned at incidents is what we want to see.

This is creating an atmosphere on this forum that is full of tension, and some of it we believe is intentional. I believe we've lost some valuable mmembers because of this.

For the record, we are not pro-career, pro-volunteer, anti-career, or anti-volunteer. We are here where everyone should be treated with respect and be able to discuss topics pertinent to emergency services, regardless of who provides them. We also don't want to allow proven, patterned "anti" agendas, nor do we want to allow members who seemingly intentionally incite conflict. Everyone is here because they have an interest in emergency services and like to know the latest news, tips, discussions, etc. But, again, there's a fine line.

Granted, this board doesn't have to be a "happy" place, as some issues need to be discussed, but we want to foster an enviroment where people willingly share information, without being afraid of intentionally being picked apart. People are passionate about some issues, and even though some will say some need to have thicker skin and not take things personally, people do.

So, I'm asking you guys- we don't want to censor members or topics, but how should be handle people who create a negative atmoshpere on this forum but don't technically violate any of our rules? Does any member have suggestion or wording for a new rule, or any ideas on how to handle this situation. Also, we don't want people to not submit photos because they are afraid that they'll be picked apart.

Sorry for my rambling, as I'm in a rush to get ready for work, but need to deal with this issue that's concerning a lot of members. And when A LOT of members who've been active posting members of this forum complain, I am obligated to find a solution or look into it.

Thanks in advance for your input

Seth

P.S. Don't forget to use the "Report Post" button to report posts that violate the forum rules.

[dragonrescue 28]

People just need to grow thicker skin! There is nothing wrong with "Ball Breaking" and "Stirring the Pot". It makes for more interesting posts and comments. That's just my opinion!

Edited February 2, 2010 by jack10562
Edit Quote

[rickperry99 8]

People need to get thicker skins. Are you going to run to the teacher and tattle whenever one of the other kids upsets you? Grow up and get over it!

[ex-commish 490]

I say no to censorship. People have the right to express thier opinions. I have always maintained the belief that being thick-skinned is part of this business. If you can't handle criticisms in a forum can you handle it anywhere else?????

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

I'm also for the "thicker skin" motion. Everyone should stop acting like a bunch of 13 year old school girls and start acting like the professionals they claim themselves to be.

This is the internet, if a thread, post or topic bothers you, FEEL FREE NOT TO READ IT!

Makes me wonder how some of you guys survive in the kitchen!

Edited February 2, 2010 by Bull McCaffrey

[Guest]

Everyone should be allowed to comment on incidents in whatever method and with whatever opinion, as long as it is not baseless or with no regard to stimulating a constructive/informative discussion.

[jd783 64]

Thicker skin is a must, treat conversations as if you were face to face ( Put your real name in your profile) No censorship My 2 cents

[64FFMJK 21]

Thicker skin is a must, treat conversations as if you were face to face ( Put your real name in your profile) No censorship My 2 cents

I agree Real names are a must. We are all adults or at least should be, It's time every one grows up and acts like it. posting incidents is a way to learn from what is happening around us, critiquing incidents and openly discussing them without censorship is the only way to learn. NOBODY IS PERFECT, I have screwed up and guess what, I learned from it and won't make the same mistake twice. I will make new and different mistakes

Edited February 2, 2010 by 64FFMJK

[JFLYNN 681]

As long as no one criticizes me or my posts, I'm fine with anything anyone has to say...

[x635 4,066]

MEMBERS: I just want to preface this by saying that, first, this was found posted on another great forum by "JoeG", of Railroad.net. It's very applicable to our type of forums as well. Although the majority of you are awesome and there's a higher level of respect between members of EMTBravo then any other forum I know of, we all work togetether to help maintain that and this message just serves as a reminder especially to our newer members who may not be familiar with the EMTBravo ways. Know that I am proud to have THE BEST forum membership on the entire 'net!-and want to keep it that way "Please Treat Our Topics As Conversations Between Real People"

...................., the topics in our forum often get political. Unfortunately these political topics often degenerate into flame wars. These flame wars destroy otherwise interesting and useful conversations. The nature of the Internet makes flaming easy. You're sitting alone at your computer. You read a post that annoys you. In that moment, the post is experienced not as a comment from a friend, but as an insult from a disembodied, far-off devil. You fire off a response more appropriate to beating back a devil than to replying to a friend. And, the topic is destroyed and we're off to the flame wars. Please, folks, when you post here, especially when you post in answer to a comment you disagree with, ”pause a moment before you click Submit. Ask yourself, Would I say this if I were in the same room with him? Then ask yourself, How would I feel if somebody said to me, what I am about to say to him? If we all exercised a little more empathy and restraint, our Forum would be a much better, more interesting place. ~Joe Grossman

[Guest alsfirefighter]

As long as no one criticizes me or my posts, I'm fine with anything anyone has to say...

LOL. Good one John! I needed a laugh.

All kidding aside...some need to grow up. Stop eating cake and drinking the kool aid. If it bothers you that much...stick to the threads with photos of apparatus.

[Fire24 1]

Thicker skin would certainly help in some instances.

However, often the posts are critiquing an incident and rarely do you see anyone offering suggestions or ways to improve upon the response. Better posting of the incident information would help; accurate times, size-up info from the IC, available resources, etc., would paint a better picture of what actually occurred. From what I have read on here, most people are getting upset due to their perception that the "critic" is just asking a question that is generally perceived as an "attack" of the way the incident was handled. Sometimes they may be right in this perception and then the thread becomes a pissing contest.

That being said, I was of the opinion that this site was to be used for to improve upon what we do everyday, a forum from which to learn. This may involve some harsh words that may be critical of how an incident was handled. So long as the criticism remains constructive, there shouldn't be a big problem with it. Maybe if the moderators see that a thread is spiraling downward they could redirect it and ask for people to offer suggestions as to how they would handle the same situation. Thus, everyone could try to learn from the situation. Resources and experience are different all over the county and what works in one area may not work in another. Sharing our experiences and trying to foster a learning environment would certainly help more than it would hurt. Isn't that really the goal?

[FFEMTPD72 2]

Agreed. Censorship should not be practiced here.

Some of the best resolutions have spawned from heated argument and debate.

[AFS1970 504]

I am generally against censoring of post except in extreme circumstances. Especially because some of the more robust discussions are also the ones where there is the most to learn.

Over the years I have read and posted in many topics. I have even made a point of staying away from one very controversial thread. One thing that helps me sort out the players is recognizing the perspective that other members are coming from. The profiles information on the right side is a good help for this, knowing the age range and the service affiliation(s) of my fellow members usually keep me from being offended. I can think of two threads (one recent and one very old) that probably would have got me riled up if I had not been able to understand the frame of reference that the posters were coming from. Sometimes someone is asking a legitimate question, but it comes off wrong if you are looking to get offended.

[x635 4,066]

Part of the fun is getting under peoples skin.

No, that's the kind of attitude we're trying to discourage and is causing a lot of the problem, and is disrespectful to other members. It is also a violation of the forum rules to intentionally incite conflict or tension between members. I don't want to censor posts, but members need to treat each other with respect, and giving other members enough respect to consider the way they are coming across.

As a result, a lot of people are taking things the wrong way, and we are losing members because of it. It's very hard to convey emotion or tone over the internet. "Breaking Balls" and the "Firehouse Kitchen" are a lot different then an internet forum for a variety of reasons. Also, members are becoming discouraged from posting incident alerts and fire scene photos.

To get under peoples skin "for fun" is not what this forum is about, is disrespectful, creates tension, and is what is causing a lot of the issues.

Thanks to everyone for all the input, and I hope to hear some input from the members who have voiced concern about these members and threads.

[x635 4,066]

JFLYNN posted this in another thread, and I feel it's pertient here and something to think about when considering what other members have to say:

Many of you have asked me, "'John (or Chief, or Sh*&head!), why do you bother going back and forth with these guys about this nonsense???" (and I often ask myself the same question), but I truly feel that forums such as this will be real agents of positive change for the fire service (that is, if the crybabys don't get to Seth and get me and a few others kicked off...wait, maybe I need to be kicked off, I think I've been spending way too much time on here lately...) Anyway, I know many open minded, reasonable individuals (career and volunteer) just don't have the facts, and once they do, their opinions often change, and then we can all move together towards improving the fire service for those who we are all sworn to protect.

Or, we can all just decide to take lots of pics of big, shiny firetrucks, and debate how big the fenders should be, or how much crome and diamond plate looks good, and whether we should goldleaf or not, we can exchange scanner frequencies, buy and sell nifty fire t-shirts and keep telling each other what great firefighters we all are...we can count how many people don't wear waist straps or eye protection, and count the days to the next parade...what'll it be guys?

Come to think of it, Seth, please ban me, I don't think I can take this anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PEMO3 523]

I agree with no censorship. It would be best if everyone followed a few simple life lessons. First before you hit send on a post take a minute and read it, then say to yourself does it convey the message or question I want or can it be read the wrong way and send a message I do not intend. If the latter is true, re-word the post. The way a question is worded can convey a tone even if unintended. Second, before anyone gets their back up about a post or a question and fires of a strongly worded rely that is sure to incite a fight ask yourself why am I upset. Is it possible the post struck a nerve because there is some truth to the questions or is it a personal issue. Either way before replying refer to lesson one and take a minute a review before you send. If everyone professional on this forum follows these simple steps I am certain we can see constructive criticism that will improve the services provided and the safety in which it is done.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Hey we can all agree and disagree with each other, sometimes it get s heated. But in the end we are all the same, passionate about what we like to do so shake hands and be gentlemen and ladies.

If not, don't let the door hit your backside on the way out to the Wahhhmmmmbulnace!!!!!

[x635 4,066]

Another good point brought up to me by another member, who has valid reason to remain anonymous and edited to remain so:

I'm all for breeding healthy discussion, but we must be fair to all members. The last comment, it's still a backhanded swipe at buffs. There's a place for all of that stuff to be discussed without fear of being mocked or bullied like high school. Let them swap frequencies and let them take about safety. This site is for all and no one should feel unconfortable about it.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Another good point brought up to me by another member, who has valid reason to remain anonymous and edited to remain so:

AMEN

[BFD1054 1,552]

Im gonna agree with the majority of members here; i vote NO to censorship. This is the great U S of A and we should ALL be entitled to our opinions.

Ive been a member of this site for a long time (i believe one of the first 100) and have seen a lot of good and some bad over the years. But one of the good things is that people can come on hear and speak their minds like adults. As others have said, if ya cant take it, walk away from the computer. Or, deal with it and add to these great forums in a positive way. Back-up your posts with some good, solid information.

Hell, ive fallen prey to the back-and-forth bickering over the years. But ive learned to take a deep breath and get over it. Its been said already, but you must have thick skin in the buisness of fire, ems & pd. Thats exactly the way it needs to be on here as well.

I have reached out to several members via PM to "hash out" our differences or further discuss issues or topics. There are guys on here that have picked at my posts and we've had some words. But after going out of my way to shoot them a PM, it usually gets squashed and usually ends with a "thanks" or "take care." Actually, theres many guys on here that id love to shoot the crap with (even non emergency service talk) over a cold one anyday. Many of us could probably have a good time and a few laughs.

Edited February 3, 2010 by BFD1054

[chris 18]

Let opinions , 2 cents and any other criticism ride. If you need to start a new section where people with differences in opinions can bust each others chops than do that, nothing wrong with good clean fun. You win some and you lose some. If the photos get picked on, than they do, we can all learn from this, one way or another. People should see things at face value some things in life just are what they are.

[firebuff860 54]

I think it is fine the way it is. If certain "members" are upset by other "members" critiquing response times and the number of personell who respond- fix it. If an IA went out that said xyz dept responded within 2-3 minutes with appropriate apparatus and personell, then other "members" would have nothing to critique. It is not the Deputy Chief's problem for pointing out the obvious, maybe it is others problem for trying to ignore it.

[x635 4,066]

I would really like to see some of those members who have sent me complaints to speak up.

Thanks to everyone for their great input so far.

[bigyellowtaxi 6]

I think that censorship would be the worst thing that could happen. It would probably cause more members to leave or be angered then any other reason. When we disagree, somebody, somewhere is not going to like what someone else's opinion is. Here on this site many times opinions, are not opinions, they are fact, as proven by recordings and records. By shining the light of truth on subjects that are not discussed anywhere else on the internet, everyone will better from it. I know when I ask questions I get answers here. I called my local FD and got a recording, A RECORDING.

I guess it comes down to

If you don't like it, don't read it.

If it is an opinion, voice your own.

Facts are discuss-able not disputable.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

If you cannot answer the questions, you should not be in a position to be asked.

I have learned much watching this site over the years and it is only because of truth and factual talk that I and everyone else has benefited.

[abaduck 123]

Unless it's something which is truly actionable, in which case moderators may have to take a firm stand (as in direct threats to a member, for instance), I'm firmly in the 'man up and get on with it' camp. This is a fire/EMS (primarily) discussion board, not a knitting circle. Some strong language and forthright expression of opinions is to be expected. I've said before, you shouldn't go locking threads when things get hot, you should be dealing with members individually when they cross the line. Saying things that would get you yelled at if said face-to-face is fine. Saying things that would get your lights punched out in bar, or get you arrested, isn't.

As for respect... well that is not a given, it has to be earned - here or in the firehouse. Chief Flynn, for example... I don't like some of what he says, or the way he says it, but he often has a point, and he's a Chief in a department with a very solid rep., and is due respect for that rank and experience. At the other extreme, if some know-it-all kid starts spouting off in the firehouse he's going to get little respect for that, and I wouldn't expect too much different here.

I've participated in many internet fora on many topics over the years, and this place is pretty tame compared to many!

[JohnnyOV 2]

I think the reason that all of this is getting out of hand is because all the Chief is trying to do is show that there is problems in certain parts of the county (actually 99% including career departments) whether it be response times, number of firemen on a crew, the correct amount of poppy seeds on a bagel.

No one is stepping up, on here, in real life, to our county, to the citizens, to our brothers and sisters who we trust our lives with and saying YES there is a problem and something needs to be fixed NOW! I have no problem with him, myself, or anyone for that matter pointing out a problem and attempting to set a course to get it fixed.

People might view these members as instigators or @$$h01es, and I was definitely one of those people a while ago. But now I look at them and view them as almost a one man crusade group to bring positive change and efficent and proactive fire protection to our county, and NOONE should be complaining about that.

We're always talking about consolidation and tanker task forces and laser beams and other fancy terms on this board. When was the last time anyone actually sat down at a county wide meeting and decided to implement / tryout / organize one of these ideas? When has anyone approached the state to change the tax and fire district laws to allow for a county wide fire service and not 50 some odd different departments? No offense to Seth and his staff because I think that this forum is a great stepping stone for ideas, but PLEASE Stop griping about it on an internet forum and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. It actual upsets me to see people with these great ideas, but nothing ever gets accomplished because they never make it past step 1.

Please, somebody, ANYBODY stand up, raise your hand, something, and decide that you are the one who will accept this challenge to modify our service and do something about it.

[ex-commish 490]

I would like to ask what posts have been deemed offensive that this topic even had to be raised. I have yet to read anything that has been offensive or deragatory or would hurt one's feelings.

[Guest partyrock]

I would really like to see some of those members who have sent me complaints to speak up.

Thanks to everyone for their great input so far.

+1. It seems to be a common problem. The faceless minority cries the loudest but doesn't step up when asked to explain their position.

[6714 4]

I think some of these comments miss the mark. The issue is not about censorship it's about civility. I have never enjoyed the forums to which I subscribe where they become a constant antagonistic environment. I would hope EMTBRAVO would be above all that.

If two people want to argue about some topic in a childish, name-calling manner, let them take it to PM or better still, some other site.

Bickering is not why I come here. BTW, I am all for debate and encourage it, but it's when it gets personal rather than a discussion of facts or beliefs that I think it goes overboard.