F.A.S.Team member pre-requisites?

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Should departments have rules on who can and can not be on the FASTeam? The reason I ask is because I do not like the idea of someone being on FASTeam just because they spent three days and got the NYS FAST Cert. I mean you can have an 18 year old kid who just joined the department and in his first month took Firefighter 1 w/ Survival and then FAST. Now he is standing outside of burning building while the interior crews are relying on him to help out if God forbid there is a problem. The 18 may or may not have any fire experience and if he has experience it is probably mainly exterior with little or no interior experience. Is it right for neighboring towns to call for a M/A FASTeam and get a bunch of inexperienced firefighters who happened to have three days to spare?

[bfxfd 8]

Should departments have rules on who can and can not be on the FASTeam? The reason I ask is because I do not like the idea of someone being on FASTeam just because they spent three days and got the NYS FAST Cert. I mean you can have an 18 year old kid who just joined the department and in his first month took Firefighter 1 w/ Survival and then FAST. Now he is standing outside of burning building while the interior crews are relying on him to help out if God forbid there is a problem. The 18 may or may not have any fire experience and if he has experience it is probably mainly exterior with little or no interior experience. Is it right for neighboring towns to call for a M/A FASTeam and get a bunch of inexperienced firefighters who happened to have three days to spare?

I dont think it is something we can avoid. As the number of fires decrease the amount of actual fireground training that we can get decreases as well. I think that we have to recognize that training is what we have to rely on now. Even though the NYS FAST training is short it is still beneficial. I think that Departments should strive to have FASTeams that are fully trained and have as much experience as possible. However you have to remember years on the job does not equal experience. Therefore training is key... train, train and train some more.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I dont think it is something we can avoid. As the number of fires decrease the amount of actual fireground training that we can get decreases as well. I think that we have to recognize that training is what we have to rely on now. Even though the NYS FAST training is short it is still beneficial. I think that Departments should strive to have FAST teams that are fully trained and have as much experience as possible. However you have to remember years on the job does not equal experience. Therefore training is key... train, train and train some more.

I agree with you...just do not know how people can be at ease knowing their lives are in the hands of inexperienced teams if they are needed. But there is not much we can do now. I guess either have a team with as much experience as possible or do not have a team at all.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Tough question as the reality is that this situation likely can and does occur nationwide every day. The issue is what happens when no FD in the immediate M/A area can provide a FAST in short order? The assignment goes unfilled. Is this better? Maybe it is better to know up front you got no help than think you might have chance, when in fact the FAST is made up of crews with not functional experience? Who qualifies these guys as "Interior" and what does that mean?

[IzzyEng4 427]

I disagree, it isn't a tough question. Your FAST / RIT unit should be staffed with people who are experienced, have at a minimum Firefighter I, Haz-Ops, taken the certified Fast / RIT course, taken some rescue classes and at least 1st responder medical status. I think a person should have at least 5 years of regular firefighting experience even before you even think of taking a RIT / FAST course or becoming part of a team.

I don't care if you just put your app in as a vollie with a FF-I cert or just got your certificate from the academy, you are still green there and trying to learn too much in the first few years you are part of the department (AND junior corps and explorer posts don't count as time in my book).

If you can't field a properly trained and staffed unit, then you shouldn't be in the FAST/RIT business.

(Besides firefighters have been known to very capable in rescuing there own for the past 300+ years)

[bfxfd 8]

I disagree, it isn't a tough question. Your FAST / RIT unit should be staffed with people who are experienced, have at a minimum Firefighter I, Haz-Ops, taken the certified Fast / RIT course, taken some rescue classes and at least 1st responder medical status. I think a person should have at least 5 years of regular firefighting experience even before you even think of taking a RIT / FAST course or becoming part of a team.

I don't care if you just put your app in as a vollie with a FF-I cert or just got your certificate from the academy, you are still green there and trying to learn too much in the first few years you are part of the department (AND junior corps and explorer posts don't count as time in my book).

If you can't field a properly trained and staffed unit, then you shouldn't be in the FAST/RIT business.

(Besides firefighters have been known to very capable in rescuing there own for the past 300+ years)

I agree in bulk what your saying with one exception. I do believe that people should be getting as much training as possible in the first year or so. This is especially true for volunteer firefighters. In NY FF1 is 87 hours not nearly enough to learn everything. That is why I personally took as many fire related classes as possible when I first joined. I am definitely a better FF for it. Even if you do not plan on being on a FAST team the FAST course is an excellent way of preparing yourself for self rescue or in aiding the FAST team if you should god forbid need one. And back to the 5 years part. Just because you have been on the department for 5 years does not guarantee quality experience. But thats what training is for. I know nothing can simulate the real thing but in a world where fires are decreasing(thankfully) training is our best friend. In my opinion every firefighter who enters a burning building should have the same training as the people standing by reasy to help him or her if the should need it. Everyone should be fast trained because even if your not on the team you might still have to make a rescue.

Edited February 3, 2010 by bfxfd

[tmurph1244 1]

My Dept has a FASTeam and we do have qualifications. One of the main ones being 3 years of interior experience. Add that to FF I, Survival and FAST, as well as in-house yearly requirements on just interior or specialize rescue ops. We allow the younger members to train with us but not respond, this allows them to be more ready when they reach 3 years. the other problem is that 3 years may not produce experience bit for that matter you may never get someone with a lot of experience if your fires are down.

Edited February 4, 2010 by xfirefighter484x
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[antiquefirelt 994]

(Besides firefighters have been known to very capable in rescuing there own for the past 300+ years)

Oddly enough the first 285 years we didn't have FAST or RIT standards. Huh?

My point of it being a tough question is what happens when no one can field the FAST quick enough to be onscene before the fire is under control? Seems to be a valid issue given some of the recent incidents here? Is an empty yard better than one with some firefighters in SCBA with limited training? How is it that rescuing our own isn't part of the very basics? You mean we'll let a new guy onto the company in place of an old hand, when the new guy can't assist his partner if he gets in a jam?

Please don't take this as thinking the programs on FAST and RIT and experience aren't the right direction, but as my boss tells me, "Don't let perfection be the enemy of good!"

[ny10570 745]

So, how much experience is enough? Pleasantville has members with several years in the dept with zero fire experience. These are often times active members who just happen to have no experience because of how infrequent substantial fires are.

In those last 285 years we lost a few firefighters. How many could have been saved had an effective FAST been standing by? They also got along just fine for years with buckets, want to go back to that also?

Izzy, I'm currious. Why did you included the medical training for FAST members?

[IzzyEng4 427]

BFXFD, my view towards being on a fast team should be with at least five years of firefighting service before you are considered to be assigned to operate on a team. I understand that yes a person may or may not have a lot experience by then (depending on the department or amount of training). But I wasn't saying that you shouldn't be taking the courses before this period, every firefighter should be. It's like the old saying, if you want to learn how to pump an engine, you better know what happens on the nozzle end, same thing with cutting a roof, you better know how to hook a ceiling inside first. Also to the "maturity" of a firefighter five years in is also better too, the person regardless of age might have that "excited" state of mind still for the work but has grown also to think more rationally also. I should have conveyed that better in my thinking, but this is my opinion also as I have trained with a lot of different people for FAST /RIT and also took part in helping teach.

NY10570 the reason I feel that FAST / RIT members should have some medical training such as basic CPR / First Aid or at least 1st responder status is because what happens if you pull a member from a building and is in cardiac arrest? Shouldn't you know how to do perform CPR?? It's an asset in case the team runs into this they are the first ones that are going to be with the rescued member during the "golden hour" so to speak. What about if there is some sort of traumatic injury, we need stabilization right? Granted the team will not be doing this in the hazardous environment, but as soon at the hurt member is out of the building, medical treatment should begin and who better to start than the people that are right there. Each scenario is different but it doesn’t hurt, remember this is RESCUE not firefighting and the FAST / RIT unit's duties don't just end by pulling the injured member out of the hazardous condition. the are the first responder for the firefighter.

My comment about the firefighters for the past 300+ is to remind people that we have been doing this for a long time and now we have a new "specialized tool in the tool box" dedicated towards rescuing our own in these situations. Looking back yes hind-sight is bliss and yes we could have probably saved more firefighter lives with the implimentation of the FAST / RIT concept sooner but that shows how times have changed as well as our overall focus of the fire-ground.

As for going back to buckets, sure, as long as they are only used to keep the beer and soda cold for "rehab"!!

Also another consideration with FAST / RIT, out of every four or six members of this unit after it is activated the "average" is 1 team member will also be hurt while performing a rescue. Something to keep in mind also

[pfd 0]

Nys fast cert should be the very least at the training needed the best way to have adequate staffing responding as fast is to take the 18 year old kid and pair him up with a more experience guy. The only way the 18 year old should be going interior at a fast call is after adequate training and im not just saying the nys cert. There should be in house training at least 6 to 8 months of training for New guys new fast operations and the required training every month as per department. There is a job for every one responding fast to "going to work" or the 18 year old throwing ground ladders.

[AFS1970 504]

First and foremost I am against the idea of a special team within a department as your FAST/RIT. I believe that this important aspect of training should be started at the basic level, and built on from there right along side of other firefighting skills. Every single member of your department needs to be able to function as the FAST/RIT.

This is for two main reasons, as Izzy pointed out, statistics have shown that a crew member involved in Firefighter removal WILL get hurt, which will require an additional crew. In both the basic and advanced RIT classes I took at the CT Academy, each evolution required MULTIPLE crews to complete. In a career department, at least in theory, all crews have an equal chance of being assigned as the FAST/RIT. In a volunteer department, manpower is so much of a variable that there is no promise of your special team getting to the scene at all, let alone together and at the same time. The very concept of saying we have 50 guys on scene but only 6 of them are RIT qualified goes against the very principle of saving ones own.

Most if not all of the skills normally associated with FAST/RIT are built upon the basics of firefighting. Search and rescue skills are part of FF1, as are ropes & knots. They are a simple but obvious progression of FF1 anyway, and really do not add that much time onto a class. The basics can be covered in 8-16 hours. That is two days or four nights. In the general scheme of training, that is not a long time at all. As for ongoing training, there are two ways to maintain proficiency, first is to add some FAST/RIT drills into the schedule in frequent enough rotation. The second is to include FAST/RIT evolutions into existing drills. Both methods can be used in concert with each other, also.

I agree with basic EMS training but for a different reason. One aspect of EMS training is patient lifting and moving. While I am not suggesting that the same time is taken with patient packaging inside a fire environment that is taken at other times, knowing his information from the EMS perspective and not just from the lifting and carrying chapter of FF1 can be helpful. Anything we can do to minimize the injuries to the Firefighter being rescued is a good thing. As for the CPR aspect, I would hope that in that scenario, the patient is being handed off to someone else, either an EMS crew or another fire crew. Remember that in basic CPR training, we can stop performing under physical exhaustion. I would bet that after being the FAST/RIT one is physically exhausted or at least closer to being there than they otherwise would have been. As long as manpower allows for it, handing off to a fresh crew, is all part of providing the best care possible.

Seniority can be a mixed factor. While experience is beneficial, so is training. Very often (although not always), the newer younger members are the ones who seek out and attend formal training, while senior members are the one who have seen and done more. I am of the opinion that neither is better or worse. Look at all the recent health and wellness initiatives that have come up in the fire service. Someone starting off in the fire service will see this as the norm, while those who have been in the service for a while will see this as an innovation and possibly a hurdle to be overcome. I know members of departments that don't see the value of FAST/RIT and think of it as some new fad. Those members would make a poor FAST/RIT to some but also probably have performed more searches and/or rescues than the so called FAST/RIT specialists.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good replies, I've enjoyed them all. I'm gonna take a different spin on this and say that some of it "depends" and I've had this argument amongst other fire instructors both career and volunteer. I often hear the argument that there has to be standards...which I agree with. To me the minimum should be FF 1 and 2, FF Survival, the FAST course, Truck Company Ops and Rescue Tech Basic should be the bare minimum. Now I've also heard the time argument and I'm kind of torn on this one and it comes down to the career fire service. Some academies in the state deliver the FAST curriculum to probies while in the academy, while others do not. The academy I am associated with does deliver it and I believe for good purpose. When the probies leave the academy they are going back to departments who provide FAST coverage for other departments. Staffing levels being what they are...you may have enough staffing to provide FAST coverage and that's it. So guess what...he/she is going to be a member of FAST. Now the flip side is some argue that they don't have enough experience and this brings me into another point that was brought up about taking as much courses in the first year (which I do not agree with). In an academy the probies have spent an immense amount of time honing their skills by the time the FAST curriculum is delivered and in my experience they perform the scenario section of the FAST course more efficiently and effectively then my experiences when delivering it to volunteer fire service members. The biggest issues that stand out to most instructors are a lack of or loss of efficiency in performing basic firefighter skills that are critical to successful FAST/RIT operations with one of the biggest ones being search. When delivering it to the volunteer members, the experience and/or skill knowledge can vary immensely as you may have a student who just completed a FF 1/Firefighter survival course a couple months ago or a person with 10 years who hasn't taken a course or drilled on some of the basics in years...either way both are not proficient at searches, putting up ladders etc.

Now how does this play out with taking as much training as you can in the first year? To me it boils down to this and is based on my experiences working with students as an instructor. State courses are very regimented and time restricted to curriculum classroom and skills time with little to no wiggle room to build on known skills or to reinforce newer ones. Some things take time to be absorbed and to fully understand how things work and need to work and to have the ability to make decisions which is where this ties back into FAST. Now I'm not saying take one course a year..but the best thing I can recommend and I often do is to pace yourself when taking courses. The last thing you also want is someone who busts out 4 or 5 courses in the first year and does nothing over the next 2 to 5 or 10 years.

I also pose this question for all the "experience" driven persons. So to be on a FAST team some say you need to have "xx" amount of time in the fire service...what if I have a person who has done more in their first year then a person who has 7 years in the department...does that still make sense? If you want to label it as the person had to be documented as "x" amount of fires...how do you know what they even did at that fire?

The final big question I have for those who preach years of service as criteria also is this. So to rescue one of our own you'll say you need "x" amount of service. But to rescue John or Jane Q. Public it doesn't matter? Before anyone wants to start with the well we'll risk a little more for one of our own...I get that...but risk vs. benefit still doesn't go out the window and in my experience..we put more the same to save anyone when the risk is still high because that in essence is our job.

CPR should be a standard for all firefighters. Its nonsense that it is not. Most states require it. As far as CFR...I could care less. If you remove a member that is in cardiac arrest...if you do your job correctly the IC should have EMS awaiting you to wherever your egress point is to start treatment immediately. And lets face it..if they are in arrest statistically its more often a shot in the dark then its going to be a positive outcome. If a member isn't breathing then time is the most important thing you can do to get them out in a high risk environment. If they are in cardiac arrest..its becoming more of a body recovery. Sounds harsh but that's the cold truth.

Edited February 4, 2010 by alsfirefighter

[CFD320 35]

Food for thought, answer these to yourself (not in the forum) and decide how experienced you "really" are:

If a FAST is activated chances are shitt has hit the proverbial fan and interior conditions are less than ideal...

**Assume training does not count there is significantly less stress during training burns so it is much easier to think clearly.**

Have you ever preformed a primary search in a zero viability environment with a moderate to high heat condition?

Have you ever preformed forcible entry under conditions mentioned above?

Do you know enough about building construction to understand dangers specific to the variety buildings you may be searching?

Do you know where the most dangerous place to be is during a fire?

Do you have an idea of how much fire you can actually control with a water can?

Do you have enough experience to know when a rescue effort becomes a recovery effort?

If you were trapped, would you want yourself coming in after you?

[IzzyEng4 427]

If you were trapped, would you want yourself coming in after you?

I think this is the best question posed in this thread!!! When I saw this I immediately said yes without hesitation. But likewise if I had hesitated, then I shouldn't even be thinking about being on a RIT unit and should be getting more experience and training in rescue. Makes everyone think now huh?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I took the State of CT RIT class within a few months of being Fire 1 and I think it was a great addition to my skills set. As with anything, you have to practice the skills to keep them up. A 20 year veteran who took RIT once could be just as rusty as a 18 year old kid who just took it is inexperienced.

My town does not have an organized "RITeam" that we dispatch out to others, but we recommend that all interior firefighters take the class. Even if the person taking the class isn't going to be a part of a Rapid Intervention Team, the class gives them an appreciation for the work of a RIT team and gives them the skills to help rescue their partner should an emergency arise. Not only that, it indoctrinates new firefighters into the habit of THINKING about RIT, so that when they become officers RIT is something that is a priority in their mind. Not bad for a 20 year old kid, eh?

[bfxfd 8]

I took the State of CT RIT class within a few months of being Fire 1 and I think it was a great addition to my skills set. As with anything, you have to practice the skills to keep them up. A 20 year veteran who took RIT once could be just as rusty as a 18 year old kid who just took it is inexperienced.

My town does not have an organized "RITeam" that we dispatch out to others, but we recommend that all interior firefighters take the class. Even if the person taking the class isn't going to be a part of a Rapid Intervention Team, the class gives them an appreciation for the work of a RIT team and gives them the skills to help rescue their partner should an emergency arise. Not only that, it indoctrinates new firefighters into the habit of THINKING about RIT, so that when they become officers RIT is something that is a priority in their mind. Not bad for a 20 year old kid, eh?

Spot on.