When should apparatus and manpower be request to respond?

[IzzyEng4 427]

I decided to do a spin off from a lot of the response questions that have been asked about in recent IAs.

Lets start with the question as in the title: When should apparatus and manpower be request to respond?

Every town, city, village, borough, hamlet and district is different from the rest. Some have hydrants every 500 to 1000 feet, while others require a static source with long supply lays or tanker operations to establish a water source. But where does the call originate and begin? AT THE DISPATCH CENTER! If the dispatcher's CAD has everything listed in it (FAST/RIT, to the scene units and cover companies), shouldn't the dispatcher be able to send out the appropriate response depending on the information they receive without waiting for the chief or officer saying "Send me this for this department"? In a perfect world yes, the IC has enough to worry about at the scene and shouldn't be worried about ordering apparatus and manpower but should be concentrating on what is coming as announced by the dispatcher. If there is need for additional equipment, the request should be as simple as "Send me the next alarm" or "Give men an additional engine, truck and Fast team."

Now comes into the problem of where is the apparatus coming from. Could the next due tanker or truck company be coming from a mile away or 10 miles away? Is the request for a certain piece of equipment coming from a staffed or unstaffed station? Will it take time for the proper number of personnel to assemble at that station before getting the rig on the road? There are a lot of considerations when requesting units for another town / district and those need to be considered and in the back of an officer's head while responding and also on the discretion of the dispatcher.

When I was a dispatcher in my former life, my partner had received a call for a working structure fire in a rural section of the town we dispatched. This department has four engines with 1000 gallon water tanks, one 3000 gallon tanker, a truck, two rescues and two mini pumpers out of two stations. Well our CAD was going through an update when this call came in with people still in the structure while on fire (not trapped as updated calls stated everyone was confirmed out). The advantage was my partner and I both knew the area well, knew there was some hydrants in the area but because the CAD was going through an update of information, the closest hydrant wasn't listed. As he dispatched out the call, I continued to check the cad for surrounding hydrants. By the time he was done, we both looked at each other and yelled "TANKERS!", so I took on getting the mutual aid tankers going, ordering one from each of the surrounding towns, placing two more on standby, ordering the RIT / FAST unit and getting the list for cover companies ready. We called out the water holes as one of the line officers stated that the closest hydrant was 3/4 of a mile away (this became our replenishing site). In this instance the operation worked, we had 9000 gallons of water on wheel s coming into the scene and the three M/A tankers were there within 5 to 10 minutes of the initial dispatch. And if we didn't get that water out on on the road well the structure could have been a total loss and only the water on scene was used (good knock down and overhaul).

Where I work, we do operate under a county mutual aid system. When an alarm goes out a department sends their first alarm response as outlined in the dispatch center's CAD (they call this a Box Alarm). When a working fire is declared the response is upgrades to a "Box Plus" bringing in those necessary additional units (FAST, tankers, air supply, extra ambulance, ect.) The upgrade happens depending on either by the first arriving unit or when taking multiple calls or even from another unit outside of the fire department (ie police or EMS). Everything is there and usually there is a one pull system, the FAST team comes from one of two career departments, certain departments have towers, aerials or quints, ect. Its all listed and the county chief meet regularly to update their information and manpower with each other. Some departments can handle a single or two alarms at one fire when others like mine automatically call in mutual aid right off the bat to fill the assignment.

So let's get back to the question at hand, when should a request be made for additional apparatus and manpower? Should it be right off the bat without hesitation doing the old "When in doubt, send it out" or having units "post" at their stations?

Should you consider going to a second alarm upon seeing fire conditions, should you think about calling for the third alarms assignment and put them in staging?

When should have cover companies com in and should they be the next up for the next alarm assignment at the original scene or should you "double up" so you have the right units "in town" so you can call some to the scene while others cover the town / district?

What should you have in your dispatch center's CAD so you as an IC don't have to think where to get a certain piece of equipment upon a working fire or other emergency of great potential?

Isn't better to have your M/A units on the road at the initial dispatch if they are part of the initial assignment?

If you have initial manpower issues, should you consider skipping a district / department or adding a unit from next one over who has a staffed rig and can be there quickly to the initial assignment?

Should you consider the "One Pull" system of apparatus and manpower response to make sure you have proper coverage?

I can go on and list so many more questions but let's make this a progressive discussion and see what we can learn from this.

[NYRangers30 1]

I am a big advocate of the "when in doubt send it out" philosophy. Especially when it comes to tankers! We can't to much without water.

[Guest]

There's a lot of questions there, and I have only operated in two different systems, which are distinctly different. In my mind, the initial dispatch should be all the necessary resources to handle the emergency as it is known to the dispatchers. If it is common practice to call for more units because it is a confirmed structure fire because the initial units will not be sufficient, that is dangerous to the firefighters and to the citizens we are protecting. The citizens think they are getting better service than they actually are, and the firefighters are asked to do far more than they can safely do. Obviously not everything can be accounted for. It would ridiculous to put a Two or Three alarm response on a possible commercial fire simply because, well, it could get that big. But if you have a normal house, or simple commercial building, the initial dispatch should have all the necessary resources to handle that.

[wraftery 1,275]

Good thread starter. It stirs up a lot of thought. But to fully answer it would take a thesis, and the answers would be different for every communities situation. Manpower, time and distances of incoming companies, qualifications of Mutual aid companies, AND the fire itself all have to be analyzed before you can truly give your answers. ICS and SOP's cannot be written in stone, They have to be dynamic and be able to handle all the "either/ors" that the first post of this thread poses.

Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.

When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?

More than 2 Windows

More than one floor

More than 20 min.

The 20 min Rule briefly explained:

More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.

More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.

More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.

And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:

1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.

2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident.

[JBE 328]

This is a great topic.

Just from my limited experiences up that way, and taking into account some of my experiences in the city, as soon as more than one quality(caller reports visible fire, something substantial) call comes in reporting that structure, let the IC know, and get ready to put Mutual Aid on Standby. As soon as the IC pulls up and confirms it, re-tone the original FD for a confirmed fire and immediately tone out whatever mutual aid should be required(tankers, RIT/FAST, relocations).

That being said, I am a firm believer in having run cards, and/or the Chiefs of departments, regardless of who gets elected, etc going to the dispatch office and sitting down with either a senior supervisor, or the head honcho of said office and saying, this is what we want to do when this happens.

The only obstacle to that is, POLITICS!!!! One chief wants this department for a tanker, and doesn't want this one. My recommendation is every few years, the assignments get evaluated and adjusted as needed. Not something that changes with every new chief. Us Dispatchers have enough to deal with.

My penny for the night.

[wraftery 1,275]

This had the makings of a very good discussion. How 'bout putting it back on the front page list?

[firecapt32 282]

Dep Raftery _I do like the 20 min rule. You are hitting the nail right on the head-- IC's should look around at their manpower or lack there of and make rapid decisions to the handleing of the situation. Take a look at how many "interior firefighters" are there and how long it took them to get there. If you dont see enough hmmm time to call more manpower.How do you figure that out?? Simple- well not so simple-but here something to think about- 2story house fire- flames showing. basic FF says one line to the fire one line backs up the first or at least protects the means of egress. How many FF's?? 3 on each line?? ok that 6 and officer that 7, IC thats 8, pump operator up to 9 now ,opps lets not forget search and rescue hmm at least 2 more ,seems like 11 to me. Lets protect our own men with a RIT 2-3 more thats 14 and we havent laddered the building yet. Well you get the idea ,if you cant produce these numbers you better be on the lookout for mutual aid. Can lines be stretched and operated witih les the three?? Can you get away with only one line?? Can things wait?? That my firefighting friends is up to the Incident Commanders and they had better be up to the task of Commanding.

Just my thoughts on the situation

[ajsbear 11]

Better to have them and not need them then to need them and not have them. Not sure? Put them on the road or at least on stand by. I don't believe in calling out specific departments. Should be the closest unless it is a special piece of equipment then still the closest of that. FIrecapt. When thinking of numbers remember the 2 in 2 out. Besides the FAST/RIT outside always have fresh bodies outside ready to go in when the inside crews air tanks are empty. Main line in, firefighters have to be changed out, send in the freash team while they change bottlesThe backup team is probobly not far behind with depleted bottles as well.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I want to show a great run card. This is for the City of Brookline, MA from the Mass Metro Fire site: http://www.massmetrofire.org/images/BrooklineCard.jpg

If you look at it, it tells you what is needed on each alarm and where the unit is to go. The IC only has to say "strike a second alarm" to the dispatcher and not worry where to decide were to get the apparatus from.

If we are going to argue about response times in this forum, here is the place to say "HEY, we need to fix this and here is how!"