Banksville Fire 1/31/10 / Tanker response

[JFLYNN 681]

OK, I know the IA times aren't always exact however I have a question regarding the Banksville Fire based on what was reported in the IA.

1615 initial alarm?

1623 MA Tanker requested?

1627 Banksville Tanker responding?

It would appear from reading this that the first due tanker didn't get out of the barn until 12 minutes after the alarm came in...since I don't know squat about this area or tankers maybe someone can enlighten me...how many Firefighters are necessary to get the tanker on the road, isn't it only one? I assume this area has no hydrants? If the IA times are correct, why did it take so long to get the tanker responding, especially on a Saturday afternoon when I would assume would be the most ideal time to hope for an adequate response from volunteer Firefighters?

PS, How far in miles is the closest firehouse from this home?

Thanks!

[Bnechis 3,961]

how many Firefighters are necessary to get the tanker on the road, isn't it only one? PS, How far in miles is the closest firehouse from this home?

Chief, most depts require 2 because tankers almost always have to buck up, sometimes a long distance on difficult roads.

Banksville FD is just short of 5 miles. THey have very difficult "back roads" to travel (very dangerous with a tanker). And the closest route goes into Conn. before going back into NY.

Pound Ridge FD is almost 8 miles

Bedford FD is closest at 3.8 miles

Based on the travel distance, if the house was approximatly another 1,000 feet from Banksville FD, ISO would rate it a 10. Because anything beyond 5 road miles is considered beyond the reach of FD (in time).

[Guest]

I wasn't involved in this incident, but from Google maps it says it's 4.0 miles from the Banksville firehouse to that intersection. I have a question too. It states that the first alarm was requested, what is the difference between what is initially dispatched and what is considered a First Alarm? I've always equated them to be one in the same. Also, Tanker 7 is a two seater Mack, but I've never heard of a minimum staffing of more than one on a tanker, either down in MD or in CT.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

how many Firefighters are necessary to get the tanker on the road, isn't it only one?

According to me, yes one.... but my Chief will always tell me to wait for a co pilot...

most depts require 2 because tankers almost always have to buck up,

BUCK UP ??? is this a term that they use in the rest of the USA ??? I am not sure how this is done .....

hahaha

[BFD1054 1,552]

I wasn't involved in this incident, but from Google maps it says it's 4.0 miles from the Banksville firehouse to that intersection. I have a question too. It states that the first alarm was requested, what is the difference between what is initially dispatched and what is considered a First Alarm? I've always equated them to be one in the same. Also, Tanker 7 is a two seater Mack, but I've never heard of a minimum staffing of more than one on a tanker, either down in MD or in CT.

I dont know squat about this incident, tankers or Banksville. But Slayer, as for the whole "1st alarm" quetion; unfortunately, each (volunteer) department arranges their assignments to be put into the CAD at 60-Control if they so wish. I say "unfortunately" because nothing is streamlined and each departments alarm assignments can be greatly different. It can be a great advantage to set up your alarm assignments this way. This way, the IC knows exactly what he/she is getting when they call for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc alarm.

For example, a 1st alarm in Buchanan is a full-dept response from Buchanan, Ladder from Montrose, Engine from Verplanck, FASTeam from Croton and Cortlandt VAC.

Edited February 1, 2010 by BFD1054

[Bnechis 3,961]

BUCK UP ??? is this a term that they use in the rest of the USA ??? I am not sure how this is done ....

Ok for those who live in Croton..BACK UP.

lol

[Guest]

Thanks for the answer BFD

[fireguy43 35]

OK, I know the IA times aren't always exact however I have a question regarding the Banksville Fire based on what was reported in the IA.

1615 initial alarm?

1623 MA Tanker requested?

1627 Banksville Tanker responding?

It would appear from reading this that the first due tanker didn't get out of the barn until 12 minutes after the alarm came in...since I don't know squat about this area or tankers maybe someone can enlighten me...how many Firefighters are necessary to get the tanker on the road, isn't it only one? I assume this area has no hydrants? If the IA times are correct, why did it take so long to get the tanker responding, especially on a Saturday afternoon when I would assume would be the most ideal time to hope for an adequate response from volunteer Firefighters?

PS, How far in miles is the closest firehouse from this home?

Thanks!

I don't know Banksville either, but a couple of points-

1) Even if the tanker CAN be operated solo, it may be the department or the Chief's policy that it has two people on it. I drive a tanker all the time. I can and have gone to many structure fires with it by myself. I have been told that wherever possible, I should have a shotgun rider if for no other reason than to help back me up if I'm on a back road, or to watch intersections as I approach. I prefer someone else with me, but I'm not sitting on the apron waiting for them to get to the station. Perhaps in Banksville, there is an order against solo rides.

2) Depending on departmental policy, perhaps the tanker is the last one out on purpose. My department has a policy of engines first, tanker secondary. First driver to the house takes an engine, second driver takes an engine, third driver takes the tanker.

3) Don't read too much into the fact that a mutual aid tanker was requested before Banksville's responded. It may be indicative of the Chief not thinking it would get out, but it is also possible that during size up, he realized that he had enough fire to require a tanker shuttle as opposed to just using what water he had on wheels.I hear it all the time where M/A tankers are requested before all of the initial response is out the door.

[Remember585 815]

One thing to consider, and I don't know if this was the case here...

Many times, a unit can be responding for a minute, or two or more, and not actually call responding either due to other radio traffic or, which does happen, forgetting. I have been in a rig responding for a minute or more and had to wait for other communications to end to get my "Responding" message out.

Again, I don't know if that happened this time, but it is something that does happen.

[Remember585 815]

OK, I know the IA times aren't always exact however I have a question regarding the Banksville Fire based on what was reported in the IA.

1615 initial alarm?

1623 MA Tanker requested?

1627 Banksville Tanker responding?

It would appear from reading this that the first due tanker didn't get out of the barn until 12 minutes after the alarm came in...since I don't know squat about this area or tankers maybe someone can enlighten me...how many Firefighters are necessary to get the tanker on the road, isn't it only one? I assume this area has no hydrants? If the IA times are correct, why did it take so long to get the tanker responding, especially on a Saturday afternoon when I would assume would be the most ideal time to hope for an adequate response from volunteer Firefighters?

PS, How far in miles is the closest firehouse from this home?

Thanks!

Banksville's Car 2582, E158 & T7 were all responding in 4-5 minutes after dispatch. When the Chief called responding he added a Tanker from Pound Ridge to the response. On arrival with "light smoke showing" he requested a "10-75" or "working fire assignment." This brought (if I remember right) an additional Tanker from Armonk, an Engine from Bedford, FAST from Kisco and EMS to the scene.

I don't think the IA times were right.

A Tanker can, just like almost any other motor vehicle, be operated with just one person, it's just preferred in most places to have a second person to assist with backing up and positioning at a drop or fill site. Also, this fire occurred on a Sunday, not a Saturday, not that it makes a difference, but it just goes to show we all are capable of making mistakes. As far as distances from firehouses, you got me. Banksville is as foreign to me as Idaho (though I sometimes wonder if they're one in the same).

Edited February 1, 2010 by Remember585

[Remember585 815]

I dont know squat about this incident, tankers or Banksville. But Slayer, as for the whole "1st alarm" quetion; unfortunately, each (volunteer) department arranges their assignments to be put into the CAD at 60-Control if they so wish. I say "unfortunately" because nothing is streamlined and each departments alarm assignments can be greatly different. It can be a great advantage to set up your alarm assignments this way. This way, the IC knows exactly what he/she is getting when they call for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc alarm.

For example, a 1st alarm in Buchanan is a full-dept response from Buchanan, Ladder from Montrose, Engine from Verplanck, FASTeam from Croton and Cortlandt VAC.

It's not just different from volunteer department to the next one - the career departments also have things set up differently. With each department and each area being so different from the next, what works in New Rochelle may not work in Eastchester just like what works in Mohegan may not work in Yorktown.

And Mike, Tankers are those fire engines with lots of water in them.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Listening to radio chatter over the years....Banksville regularly gets its tanker out for even automatic alarms. Almost anytime they have a fire call in district they will roll E157 or E158 and T8. I would find it hard to believe that it a significant delay existed considering normal usage.

[BFD1054 1,552]

It's not just different from volunteer department to the next one - the career departments also have things set up differently. With each department and each area being so different from the next, what works in New Rochelle may not work in Eastchester just like what works in Mohegan may not work in Yorktown.

And Mike, Tankers are those fire engines with lots of water in them.

Thanks John, i definately see your points and it makes sense. I personally think that not enough FD's are using the pre-determined alarm-assignments.

Ahhhh, thats what those huge trucks are

[Cos Cob 215 7]

Wasn't aware of this call until I read the IA. From what I do know about Banksville, they do require 2 per truck to respond. That doesn't mean they could have had more on Engine 157. The tanker is limited to 2 people, the Engine seats six I believe. Also with regards to the times, the radio coverage is fair to poor at best at least for contact with the Greenwich dispatchers. It may be, they were just waiting to come into radio range before announcing that they would be unavailable due to a run on the NY side. The same might be true about contact with 60 Control, not sure.

[Truck4 48]

The times for these transmissions are exact. Dispatcher gave the time upon acknowledgment:

1615hrs- Banksville toned out for a possible structure fire.

1623hrs- M/A Pound Ridge for Tanker 3 to scene. Banksville E-157 enroute.

1627hrs- Banksville Tanker 7 enroute.

1628hrs- Car 2582 on scene rpts light smoke showing, req. full 1st Alarm assignment. E-157 on location. M/A Bedford Engine 110, Armonk Tanker 9, Mount Kisco FAST U-13, Armonk EMS 51B2, 45M1.

1632hrs- Car 2582 rpts working fire in rear of the house, req. E-157 to back down driveway. T-7 on location

1634hrs- Op's on Fireground 5.

1637hrs- Pound Ridge Tanker 3 on location. M/A Mount Kisco E-106 to cover Banksville.

1638hrs- Car 2582 rpts interior crew rpts fire K/D, keeping all units responding.

[JFLYNN 681]

The times for these transmissions are exact. Dispatcher gave the time upon acknowledgment:

1615hrs- Banksville toned out for a possible structure fire.

1623hrs- M/A Pound Ridge for Tanker 3 to scene. Banksville E-157 enroute.

1627hrs- Banksville Tanker 7 enroute.

1628hrs- Car 2582 on scene rpts light smoke showing, req. full 1st Alarm assignment. E-157 on location. M/A Bedford Engine 110, Armonk Tanker 9, Mount Kisco FAST U-13, Armonk EMS 51B2, 45M1.

1632hrs- Car 2582 rpts working fire in rear of the house, req. E-157 to back down driveway. T-7 on location

1634hrs- Op's on Fireground 5.

1637hrs- Pound Ridge Tanker 3 on location. M/A Mount Kisco E-106 to cover Banksville.

1638hrs- Car 2582 rpts interior crew rpts fire K/D, keeping all units responding.

Thanks Mike. I was pretty confident that the times were exact but I was waiting for you to confirm it. So....could someone please explain why the Banksville tanker was not enroute for a Banksville structure fire until 12 minutes after the initial alarm? None of this makes sense to me. Is this the norm???

[Cos Cob 215 7]

Just spoke with 2582. He pulled up the 60 Control CAD times for trucks signing on. He dictated the times for me to post here. Apparently this is the farthest point out in the Northeast part of their district and they provided 6 members on the first two trucks.

Time of alarm - 16:14

Engine 158 responding - 16:19

Tanker 7 responding - 16:19

Request for additional tanker (Tanker 3) - 16:20

Tanker 3 dispatched - 16:21

Tanker 3 responding - 16:27

Engine 158 on scene - 16:28

Request for 3rd due Tanker (Tanker 9) - 16:29

Tanker 7 on scene - 16:33

Tanker 3 on scene 16:38

Main body of fire K/D, 1 line stretched, K/D with two cans - 16:38

Under control - 16:44

Return Tanker 9 and EMS - 16:47

[fireguy43 35]

Just spoke with 2582. He pulled up the 60 Control CAD times for trucks signing on. He dictated the times for me to post here. Apparently this is the farthest point out in the Northeast part of their district and they provided 6 members on the first two trucks.

Time of alarm - 16:14

Engine 158 responding - 16:19

Tanker 7 responding - 16:19

Request for additional tanker (Tanker 3) - 16:20

Tanker 3 dispatched - 16:21

Tanker 3 responding - 16:27

Engine 158 on scene - 16:28

Request for 3rd due Tanker (Tanker 9) - 16:29

Tanker 7 on scene - 16:33

Tanker 3 on scene 16:38

Main body of fire K/D, 1 line stretched, K/D with two cans - 16:38

Under control - 16:44

Return Tanker 9 and EMS - 16:47

So there you go boys and girls,enough holes in the times to drive a tanker through. Did Banksville's tanker respond at 16:19 or 16:27? What arrived on scene at 16:28, E157, E158, or both? Read through this thread and see how different the times are from one person to the next. Who knows who's right, and who cares? Once again, a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking and commentary by people who were not involved whatsoever, speculating and criticizing with incomplete, inaccurate information. I fail to see what is gained by all of this. My two cents.

[JFLYNN 681]

So there you go boys and girls,enough holes in the times to drive a tanker through. Did Banksville's tanker respond at 16:19 or 16:27? What arrived on scene at 16:28, E157, E158, or both? Read through this thread and see how different the times are from one person to the next. Who knows who's right, and who cares? Once again, a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking and commentary by people who were not involved whatsoever, speculating and criticizing with incomplete, inaccurate information. I fail to see what is gained by all of this. My two cents.

"...and who cares?..." Lots of us do, apparently. In the fire service response times are crucial. That is why they are tracked and recorded. It's simply not good enough to say, "we do the best we can", or "these times aren't exact", "what's the big deal?", etc. It is a big deal. SECONDS COUNT. If we can improve response times, we will save lives and property. What is more important than that, someone's feelings?? QTIP.

[truck45 1]

I agree with Fireguy43,well said.

It's ok to ask questions, but make sure you get the correct answers from someone who was involved in the incident.

Don't guess, or speculate. Go ask a Chief, or an officer from that Dept.

[mstrang1 213]

In addition to what JFLynn said in regards to time. Not only are the minutes important, but the seconds also. 16:17:01 and 16:18:59 are, for all intents and purposes, two minutes apart. Written without seconds, 16:17 and 16:18, shows it to be only 1 minute apart. Big difference in the real world and when ISO comes through.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Yes you are correct but when it comes down to it, when recordings are looked at on tape, they are not considered in a lot of cases unfortunately, they should be though. (I've down thousands of tape reviews and made sure the seconds were there though they were not required but they never changed the outcome).

Also, though I may be wrong on this and I will stand corrected if found to be, I have never heard of ISO looking at seconds, they always considered by the minute. Like I said I maybe wrong on this.

And speaking of seconds: I started a thread about when to mutual aid and additional apparatus here; http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=35594&pid=203180&st=0entry203180

Everyone come over and get into this. It doesn't matter if its a small town looking to another or a large department calling all hands to respond. Share you insight.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Also, though I may be wrong on this and I will stand corrected if found to be, I have never heard of ISO looking at seconds, they always considered by the minute. Like I said I maybe wrong on this.

ISO does not look at response times at all. They look at road miles traveled and they calculate a maximum response speed per mile or part there of. They assume that if the fire station is beyond 5 road miles, then the time delay is not acceptable. They also consider how long it takes to turn out, but not in minutes. They require 3x more on call (volunteers) firefighters respond to get the same credit as on duty in the station. VFD's can under ISO get the same manpower credit if they have onduty in the station crews.

[mstrang1 213]

I may stand corrected on the ISO bit, but not the real world bit. Seconds should count as far as statistics go. How do they expect to figure a true average of, I believe NFPA wants 4 minutes to on scene, 90% of the time, if they do not count seconds? 3 minutes and 5 minutes average 4 minutes, but 3:59 and 5:59 average closer to 5 minutes than 4.

Edited February 3, 2010 by mstrang1

[IzzyEng4 427]

ISO does not look at response times at all. They look at road miles traveled and they calculate a maximum response speed per mile or part there of. They assume that if the fire station is beyond 5 road miles, then the time delay is not acceptable. They also consider how long it takes to turn out, but not in minutes. They require 3x more on call (volunteers) firefighters respond to get the same credit as on duty in the station. VFD's can under ISO get the same manpower credit if they have onduty in the station crews.

Thank you Capt., I appreciate it for getting the right information out there for me.

[fireguy43 35]

"...and who cares?..." Lots of us do, apparently. In the fire service response times are crucial. That is why they are tracked and recorded. It's simply not good enough to say, "we do the best we can", or "these times aren't exact", "what's the big deal?", etc. It is a big deal. SECONDS COUNT. If we can improve response times, we will save lives and property. What is more important than that, someone's feelings?? QTIP.

Just so we're clear..... read my entire sentence. "Who knows who's right, and who cares?". As in, "who cares who's right?", not "who cares about response times". Honestly, it's great to engage in honest discourse over the topics of the day, including response times and staffing levels, but let's stop the nit-picking over what time each piece of equipment got out unless you have reliable information.

There is an awful lot of hearsay and misinformation that ends up being the topic of a two or three page thread on here. My point is that two people come forward with information from the same incident with dramatically different response times, not seconds apart, but minutes. Check the thread, how do you account for an 8 minute difference in what two people heard? And since there is such a discrepancy, how do you sit at a distance and feel qualified to opine on what should have been done with incomplete and imperfect information? Yes, seconds count, and yes, we should all strive to provide the highest level of service, at the safest, most efficient speed that conditions allow. What doesn't count is an endless barrage of criticism over every single incident.

Don't worry about my feelings Chief, I don't "TIP", just tired of the same old harangue every time there is a structure fire IA.

Edited February 3, 2010 by fireguy43

[JFLYNN 681]

Just so we're clear..... read my entire sentence. "Who knows who's right, and who cares?". As in, "who cares who's right?", not "who cares about response times". Honestly, it's great to engage in honest discourse over the topics of the day, including response times and staffing levels, but let's stop the nit-picking over what time each piece of equipment got out unless you have reliable information.

There is an awful lot of hearsay and misinformation that ends up being the topic of a two or three page thread on here. My point is that two people come forward with information from the same incident with dramatically different response times, not seconds apart, but minutes. Check the thread, how do you account for an 8 minute difference in what two people heard? And since there is such a discrepancy, how do you sit at a distance and feel qualified to opine on what should have been done with incomplete and imperfect information? Yes, seconds count, and yes, we should all strive to provide the highest level of service, at the safest, most efficient speed that conditions allow. What doesn't count is an endless barrage of criticism over every single incident.

Don't worry about my feelings Chief, I don't "TIP", just tired of the same old harangue every time there is a structure fire IA.

If two people disagree on something and you don't care who's right, wouldn't that infer that you don't care about the issue at all?

You mention that you are not happy certain things becoming "two or three page threads on here"...if something becomes a two or three page thread, wouldn't that infer that it is a topic of interest to at least several people?

Please show me where in my comments i "opined on what should have been done"??

Who made an "endless barrage of criticism over every single incident"??

I have questioned response times a few times in structure fire IA's and I have done so for a reason. To establish whether or not there is a real systemic problem, we need to investigate whether or not there is a pattern, and not just one or two isolated incidents. I'll tell you what...as soon as I feel comfortable that the fire service in Westchester County on a whole recogjnizes and begins to deal with this serious problem in a healthy way, I'll stop occassionally asking questions about response times and manning levels at certain incidents.

I have not opined on much on here, I ask questions or state facts usually. I will opine, however, that you are easily upset over the issue because it hits close to home and shines a light on something that makes you very uncomfortable. You are blaming the messenger and your desire to brush this problem under the rug puts you in a small minority on this site apparently (and thankfully).

[ex-commish 490]

So there you go boys and girls,enough holes in the times to drive a tanker through. Did Banksville's tanker respond at 16:19 or 16:27? What arrived on scene at 16:28, E157, E158, or both? Read through this thread and see how different the times are from one person to the next. Who knows who's right, and who cares? Once again, a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking and commentary by people who were not involved whatsoever, speculating and criticizing with incomplete, inaccurate information. I fail to see what is gained by all of this. My two cents.

Up to this post I have not seen any "monday morning quarterbacking" or " commentary." What I have seen is people simply asking questions. Is this a bad thing?

[fireguy43 35]

If two people disagree on something and you don't care who's right, wouldn't that infer that you don't care about the issue at all?

You mention that you are not happy certain things becoming "two or three page threads on here"...if something becomes a two or three page thread, wouldn't that infer that it is a topic of interest to at least several people?

Please show me where in my comments i "opined on what should have been done"??

Who made an "endless barrage of criticism over every single incident"??

I have questioned response times a few times in structure fire IA's and I have done so for a reason. To establish whether or not there is a real systemic problem, we need to investigate whether or not there is a pattern, and not just one or two isolated incidents. I'll tell you what...as soon as I feel comfortable that the fire service in Westchester County on a whole recogjnizes and begins to deal with this serious problem in a healthy way, I'll stop occassionally asking questions about response times and manning levels at certain incidents.

I have not opined on much on here, I ask questions or state facts usually. I will opine, however, that you are easily upset over the issue because it hits close to home and shines a light on something that makes you very uncomfortable. You are blaming the messenger and your desire to brush this problem under the rug puts you in a small minority on this site apparently (and thankfully).

As I have indicated on here in other threads, I do not live in Westchester and am not affiliated with any of the agencies which have had the misfortune of experiencing a structure fire in the past few months that were the topic of IA's, nor do I have any acquaintances in any of these departments. I am as far removed from these incidents as can be, so it doesn't "hit close to home" for me or make me feel uncomfortable (according to Mapquest, the Banksville firehouse, for instance, is 50 miles away). I am also not trying to "brush this problem under the rug".

There may well be a response issue in Westchester, there may well be a need for consolidation and regionalization. I don't know. I asked in a post a week or so ago to cite any publicly available information from any source in the way of a study or position paper that addressed the issue so that we could all be better informed. Never heard a word in reply. Does one exist? Does anyone at the County level agree that there is a problem? Has the County Executive or any public official (town, city or otherwise)made any comments or taken any action to at least identify the issue? I don't know, give us some real information instead of insinuation, conjecture and speculation based on unreliable information in an internet posting forum.

Please, chief, understand the difference between the "issue", and the methodology with which one pursues that issue. There may be a valid point in terms of staffing and response times, but that issue and the pursuit of a solution is diminished when the pursuit is based on conjecture and less than factual information. If you have facts, then fine, share them with us. If you don't, then get some. You must have access to some form of records, as dispatch records must be public information available with a FOIL request. Get the dispatch records for the last month. Stucture fires in Banksville, Croton Falls, Somers, and Mohegan Lake come to mind. Wouldn't be a lot of work to get information on 6-8 incidents. Put some facts together in an organized, analytic way that proves your position. Do that, demonstrate the problem that you say exists based on IA's from anyone with a computer, and I'll be a believer. Until then, it's all conjecture, rumor and hearsay.

One last point, which I'll put in a separate paragraph in case Seth and the boys feel the need to edit it out. Read your last paragraph. "...you are easily upset...", "...you very uncomfortable...", "You are blaming..." and "...puts you in a small minority". Let' keep the discussion about the issue, and not a personal attack the minute someone disagrees with you.

[helicopper 1,050]

There may well be a response issue in Westchester, there may well be a need for consolidation and regionalization. I don't know. I asked in a post a week or so ago to cite any publicly available information from any source in the way of a study or position paper that addressed the issue so that we could all be better informed. Never heard a word in reply. Does one exist? Does anyone at the County level agree that there is a problem? Has the County Executive or any public official (town, city or otherwise)made any comments or taken any action to at least identify the issue? I don't know, give us some real information instead of insinuation, conjecture and speculation based on unreliable information in an internet posting forum.

Perhaps you missed this topic and I'll admit I didn't see you ask for such information in the other thread you mention.

Michaelian Institute Research on Consolidation of Services