Mohegan Lake Working Fire 1-26-10 & Manpower Issues

[bigyellowtaxi 6]

Whats with Mohegan? I know that they have cut their career numbers by 5 or 6 through attrition. They also have stopped certain (Rescue)apparatus from responding to structure fires.

Now every time I hear they have a structure they are screaming for manpower and mutual aid to the scene. Even when they call a FAS team they put them to work and call another Dept for FAST. Many times by the time the second FAST is established the fire is under control and salvage Ops are occurring.

[JFLYNN 681]

Whats with Mohegan? I know that they have cut their career numbers by 5 or 6 through attrition. They also have stopped certain (Rescue)apparatus from responding to structure fires.

Now every time I hear they have a structure they are screaming for manpower and mutual aid to the scene. Even when they call a FAS team they put them to work and call another Dept for FAST. Many times by the time the second FAST is established the fire is under control and salvage Ops are occurring.

If the information provided in the IA is accurate, or even close to accurate, that situation is a darn shame and is just one more in a long line of fires and emergencies in Westchester County recently which beg the cause of regionalization and consolidation.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Even when they call a FAS team they put them to work and call another Dept for FAST. Many times by the time the second FAST is established the fire is under control and salvage Ops are occurring.

IF this is the case, it's a workplace violation of OSHA BFs 1910.134, which is THE law that established "2 in-2 out". Mandatory rescue team(s) will be in place for workers placed into an IDLH environment. IF a fire department goes to work, unless there is an immediate threat to life (whereby 2in-2out is put off), without proper RIT in place, and God forbid one or more of the brothers hails a mayday, and the RIT is not in place and ready to respond, it's a violation of OSHA law. Furthermore it's morally and ethically wrong, in my humble opinion. Any IC would be foolish to do it, and 99.9% of them know it.

Disclaimer: I have not been privy to any information regarding this or any other incident and am making a comment based on the observations of the post quoted.

[mfc2257 464]

IF this is the case, it's a workplace violation of OSHA BFs 1910.134, which is THE law that established "2 in-2 out". Mandatory rescue team(s) will be in place for workers placed into an IDLH environment. IF a fire department goes to work, unless there is an immediate threat to life (whereby 2in-2out is put off), without proper RIT in place, and God forbid one or more of the brothers hails a mayday, and the RIT is not in place and ready to respond, it's a violation of OSHA law. Furthermore it's morally and ethically wrong, in my humble opinion. Any IC would be foolish to do it, and 99.9% of them know it.

Disclaimer: I have not been privy to any information regarding this or any other incident and am making a comment based on the observations of the post quoted.

You are absolutely correct that departments need to comply with 2 in/out. However, it doesn't need to be a RIT team. So if the RIT team is put to work, and other non RIT firefighting personnel are onscene then the standard is met. Personally, I believe that the second RIT should be onscene before the first RIT goes to work as a dedicated RIT team is best qualified to effect a rescue.

Procedures for interior structural firefighting. In addition to the requirements set forth under paragraph (g)(3), in interior structural fires, the employer shall ensure that:

1910.134(g)(4)(i)

At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

1910.134(g)(4)(ii)

At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and

1910.134(g)(4)(iii)

All employees engaged in interior structural firefighting use SCBAs.

Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.

Note 2 to paragraph (g): Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Thanks for posting the actual wording of the law, that's cool. Yes, there are technical ways to mess with the implementation of the Statute; sure one wants to put the RIT to work, and have another group of guys assemble for potential rescue, one could probably jurymander something together. And it would also be a "cluster." Firegrounds are confusing enough, the rules are already complicated, an IC has many many things to be thinking about and performing. That's why SOPs are put in place; to make some kind of orderly fashion out of the semi-controlled chaos. The last thing he/she should be doing, once again IMHO, is making the fireground MORE confusing by switching players around.

Edit: for wording. Also, there are other paragraphs in the statute which address what RIT/FAST/2 Out, should be prepared with. Words like "appropriate" are more than significant than one might think at first glance, and I'm sure lawyers know how to interpret them. Siting this law was the basis and core of a narrative we used to win a RIT grant from FEMA is 2003's AFG. Simple words in the statute were key to being succesful in that effort.

Edited January 26, 2010 by efdcapt115

[Mofire24 27]

It's called politics happened too that place that pushes people away

[DCJPells 29]

You are absolutely correct that departments need to comply with 2 in/out. However, it doesn't need to be a RIT team. So if the RIT team is put to work, and other non RIT firefighting personnel are onscene then the standard is met. Personally, I believe that the second RIT should be onscene before the first RIT goes to work as a dedicated RIT team is best qualified to effect a rescue.

Procedures for interior structural firefighting. In addition to the requirements set forth under paragraph (g)(3), in interior structural fires, the employer shall ensure that:

1910.134(g)(4)(i)

At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

1910.134(g)(4)(ii)

At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and

1910.134(g)(4)(iii)

All employees engaged in interior structural firefighting use SCBAs.

Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.

Note 2 to paragraph (g): Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled.

Just a note. NY PESH is our agency that covers the OSHA law. They have made the decision that the pump operator can not be abandoned (contrary to note 1 paragraph (g))so in NY it is actually 2 in and 3 out.

[mfc2257 464]

Thanks for posting the actual wording of the law, that's cool. Yes, there are technical ways to mess with the implementation of the Statute; sure one wants to put the RIT to work, and have another group of guys assemble for potential rescue, one could probably jurymander something together. And it would also be a "cluster." Firegrounds are confusing enough, the rules are already complicated, an IC has many many things to be thinking about and performing. That's why SOPs are put in place; to make some kind of orderly fashion out of the semi-controlled chaos. The last thing he/she should be doing, once again IMHO, is making the fireground MORE confusing by switching players around.

Edit: for wording. Also, there are other paragraphs in the statute which address what RIT/FAST/2 Out, should be prepared with. Words like "appropriate" are more than significant than one might think at first glance, and I'm sure lawyers know how to interpret them. Siting this law was the basis and core of a narrative we used to win a RIT grant from FEMA is 2003's AFG. Simple words in the statute were key to being succesful in that effort.

Yes you're correct, in paragraph 3 it does indicate that appropriatly trained resources along with the equipment necessary be available.... IMO a RIT should be the one to be available..... But as we all know if a 5 or 6 man engine or combination of engine/truck rolls up they are going to work with 2 i/o before RIT is established. Its grey area that I hate.

Personally in Westchester, as I've ranted before, there should be automatic dispatch. A possible structure fire should have at least 2 engines, 1 truck, and a dedicated RIT unit dispatched so that the RIT is theoretically arriving when the first units are going to work. A confirmed structure fire should be 3/2 plus RIT plus EMS on the first alarm.

Westchester as a whole will never get there though.... Egos egos egos.....

Edited January 26, 2010 by mfc2257

[huzzie59 75]

So..........is this a discussion of RIT/FAST or Mohegan Lake personnel issues?

[bigyellowtaxi 6]

It seems that a Dept like Mohegan that has Paid and Volunteer personnel should have enough people to fight a bread and butter. Maybe they are saving money by called in other dept instead of hire the amount of people needed.

Is it fair to surrounding Depts that you save money and utilize their resouces? When does a Dept over use another Dept resources? Can Commissioner be held responsible? If so are these Commissioners asleep or just ignoring whats going on in their dept? How about their Chief, he is in the field he must see the problem? Should an Officer allow a RIT/FAST be put to work instead of taking care of his men's safety.

While I don't know if this is Personal, Safety, or Monetary issue. There's a problem here some place, maybe the fire is out by the time the chief shows up.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Chief Flynn (and others); I posted this IA. I posted the info to the best of my knowledge. The times may not be 100% correct, but pretty damn close. My computer decided to freeze, so I was using my Blackberry. I never heard the initial dispatch, just the "10-75" and after.

As for Mohegan FD; I think they're a great dept (career & volly). They have a lot of young, active guys and usually get great turn-outs at alarms. I think a partial problem is the response times for the vols. That district is HUGE with lots of traffic. It would not be uncommon for a vol to have a 10-15 minute response time.

That being said, they could use more career staff, definately not less (not a knock on the vols at all, no twisted panties please). Its just such a big district that runs a lot of alarms.

As for the FAST issue, its definately a grey area as mfc stated. It happens more often than not that FASTs are put to work. There should most definately be a 2nd FAST on scene prior to putting the 1st to work. Defeats the whole purpose otherwise. However, these are the things that any IC has to deal with and make many quick decisions.

I must say kudos to Yorktown FD. They notified 60 that they could not fill out the FAST assignment. Instead, they supplied an engine & manpower. That's comforting to know that they wouldn't send a "FAST" when they didn't have the properly trained manpower. When Yorktown couldn't fulfill the FAST, Peekskill was called right away, which was a good call.

[helicopper 1,050]

Doesn't this speak to the issue of dispatching the appropriate resources at the outset? If a full complement of personnel was assigned on the initial dispatch, wouldn't this whole discussion be moot?

12+1 for a career department or 36+1 for a volunteer department according to ISO, right? How many agencies can't do this on a routine, regular basis? Honestly now.

We should be striving to identify strategies that will meet these and other standards so we can stop having this discussion. Regionalization and consolidation is one answer. Putting more career staff on is another answer. Having volunteers fill a roster and staff an apparatus or station is another answer. I'm sure those wiser and more experienced than me can add many more possibilities.

Ignoring the problem and proclaiming the status quo is not an answer and sooner or later will cost someone dearly.

[fireguy43 35]

Just a note. NY PESH is our agency that covers the OSHA law. They have made the decision that the pump operator can not be abandoned (contrary to note 1 paragraph (g))so in NY it is actually 2 in and 3 out.

Wait a minute. A little clarification Chief- for purposes of the 2 in-2 out rule, I think what you are saying is that the pump operator cannot count toward the total, correct? I know it's splitting hairs, but then has it also been interpreted that the pump operator is not to leave the pump panel for other duties either, even if they are exterior to the fire structure? Not trying to trap you with the law, just legitimately interested in exactly how the law is interpreted in practice. Thanks.

[DCJPells 29]

Wait a minute. A little clarification Chief- for purposes of the 2 in-2 out rule, I think what you are saying is that the pump operator cannot count toward the total, correct? I know it's splitting hairs, but then has it also been interpreted that the pump operator is not to leave the pump panel for other duties either, even if they are exterior to the fire structure? Not trying to trap you with the law, just legitimately interested in exactly how the law is interpreted in practice. Thanks.

That is right. PESH stated early on that the pump operator could not be considered one of the two out. Remeber that they are the "rescue" team and PESH feels it is not a position that can be abandoned. I will look and see if I can find the paper.

[fireguy43 35]

That is right. PESH stated early on that the pump operator could not be considered one of the two out. Remeber that they are the "rescue" team and PESH feels it is not a position that can be abandoned. I will look and see if I can find the paper.

Thanks Chief- one more question- My latin is a little rusty- "Omnus Cedo Domus"- Latin for "take the hydrant" right?

[16fire5 693]

It seems form IAs that westchester departments are calling FAST teams on a regular basis. Continually I point out that the FAST is put to work for non FAST duties. If this is happening its probably points to the fact that the first alarm assignment is not adequete. The IC should plan to have crews in reserve on scene to perfom the tasks needed to avoid using the FAST. Depending on the department in addition to calling for a FAST on the working fire simulataeously requesting an extra engine and truck would provide this reserve. If you operating at a working fire and all hands are working and no one is there in reserve you are not prepared. I could understand the arguement of limited resources or mutual aid being too far away if this was Wyoming but we are talking about Westchester County. The NFPA 1710 recomendations are the minimum resources needed to combat a fire I think adding an extra engine and truck to that is being adequetly prepared for the realities of the fireground. There are many added benifits like giving the first due guys a blow and think of the experince the the probies from mutual aid get doing the washdown and getting to find out how first due handled the fire they were confronted with. I am continually impressed with our chief officers abilities to stay ahead of a fire and request resources before the need arises. That is the benifit of and experienced incident commander and why one is invaluable.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I must say kudos to Yorktown FD. They notified 60 that they could not fill out the FAST assignment. Instead, they supplied an engine & manpower. That's comforting to know that they wouldn't send a "FAST" when they didn't have the properly trained manpower. When Yorktown couldn't fulfill the FAST, Peekskill was called right away, which was a good call.

Is kudos really needed just because they did what they should do? Every firefighter is taught that if you can not complete an assignment you need to notify the IC. This is mandatory. If you can not respond for any reason, manpower, mechanical, your own calls, etc. you advise dispatch.

I see a major problem within your statement. They can send an engine company but not one that is trained well enough to be a "FAST". In general the concept of having mutual aid depts provide FAST makes sense if your dept is not big enough to have enough interior trained personnel on scene to do attack (including search and all other functions) and FAST. Also many VFD's FAST on mutual aid is based on sending its "best" which is not a bad idea, but if they can send an engine crew, that is not good enough to be FAST, thanks but no thanks. I do not want to be working inside a working fire knowing that the guys on my back up line are not trained or experienced enough to save me if something goes wrong!!!!

If you said they could not get out I would accept before I'd except we can only send partially trained FF's.

If you are not trained to save your brothers you are not a firefighter. Do not get on the rig.

Doesn't this speak to the issue of dispatching the appropriate resources at the outset? If a full complement of personnel was assigned on the initial dispatch, wouldn't this whole discussion be moot?

12+1 for a career department or 36+1 for a volunteer department according to ISO, right? How many agencies can't do this on a routine, regular basis? Honestly now.

We should be striving to identify strategies that will meet these and other standards so we can stop having this discussion. Regionalization and consolidation is one answer. Putting more career staff on is another answer. Having volunteers fill a roster and staff an apparatus or station is another answer. I'm sure those wiser and more experienced than me can add many more possibilities.

Ignoring the problem and proclaiming the status quo is not an answer and sooner or later will cost someone dearly.

Very well stated, thanks Chris. It is pretty clear that until either a) community &/or fire service leaders start to actually lead or b ) the state forces the issue, we will continue to see these threads after every fire. It real is sad to see how many leaders have there heads in the sand.

[DCJPells 29]

FYI: The first time I received word about PESH's stance on the pump operator was through a Buffalo coorespondance in August of 1998, just prior to the implementation of the Respiratory Standard. In 2004, I was looking for the coorespondance and could not find the original so I contacted PESH and the attached e-mail was received.

2in3out.pdf

[ladder55 26]

BNechis I know in a few a depts. Including mine if you haven't gone through fast training you don't go to a fast call.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I think 16fire 5 said it well that if you are using your RIT or FAST for other assignments, your first alarm is inadequate. That being said, some many tasks a on the fireground demand immediate action that having a crew doing a secondary task, while a primary one fails to be completed may create the need for the RIT.

BNECHIS, again shines some light on the real issue. At some point FAST and RIT cannot be specialty duties. These things must be part of our basic training. In the above scenario, it sounds like the FD determined it did not have enough trained FAST FFer's to deploy. That means that potentially no one was readily standing by for rescue? What is worse, interior qualified guys with no RIT certs standing by or no one at all? Are we letting these non-RIT certified guys lead off a fire attack or perform search?

Are some dept's keeping their best guys outside to rescue their own, while sending in the second string to look for citizens? WTF! Time for a check of priorities, training and reality. If I keep my best outside for RIT, I increase the chances they'll be needed. If I send them in, my RIT will be those firefighters who still are trained and qualified to rescue citizens which we are, except we have handles to grab on (SCBA harness).

As my boss says,"Don't let perfect be the enemy of good". In other words something today is better than taking years to develop the perfect FAST that requires proper celestial alignment.

[helicopper 1,050]

BNechis I know in a few a depts. Including mine if you haven't gone through fast training you don't go to a fast call.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't every firefighter in NYC (and probably any career department) capable of part of a FAST assignment? This again highlights the disparity in training between career academies and OFPC. How can you be a "firefighter" and not have FAST training? Isn't rescue one of the fundamental duties of any firefighter?

Is this another example of "team" designations hurting capabilities? Why have select people serving on FAST "teams" and not make every FF qualified for it so it is just an assignment on the fireground?

How much more training - not counting experience which is also essential - is required for this "FAST" designation?

[ladder55 26]

When I joined basic and intermediate didn't include f.a.s.t

You had to take ff. Survival then f.a.s.t. if you haven't taken those courses then you don't go on fast calls. In career academy I'm sure its part of the training and maybe even included in ff 1 or 2

[Beekman 5]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Westchester was the first to attach Firefighter Survival to the end of the Firefighter 1 classes. Dutchess started incorporating the class into FF1 last year. East Fishkill was gracious enough to host a Firefighter Survival class in November of 2008 and they had to send a ton of people away because the class was way over the max.

In the next two months, Dutchess will add waiting lists to its online training registration website and CC-9 will truly have an idea how many Dutchess firefighters still need Survival. Then they can tackle the FAST class issue.

Should every firefighter have FAST? Absolutely. You just need to remember that your firefighters will need to practice those skill regularly. Taking the class 4 years ago and not practicing the skills should not qualify you as a FAS team member.

FF2 touches upon some of the FAS skills but firefighters should take the full FAST class.

[antiquefirelt 994]

What exactly are these FAST skills so many of you are talking about? I'd like to see a list of the types of skills required to be a FAST member. And should the lack of these skills prevent firefighters from attempting to assist other firefighters in need?

Many years ago I attended a fireground survival/RIT program in Providence, RI. One of the rotations was a small group discussion about functional RIT with John Norman and Butch Cobb. They specifically asked what each persons' FD was doing about RIT. Of course being over 10 years ago the answers were all over the board and less than favorable. One career firefighter froma small FD noted his FD had no trust that the local VFD's could provide them with RIT trained personnel and therefore had no RIT program as career staff was too limited to have crews standing fast. Both Norman and Cobb, jumped in and asked if maybe any SCBA certified firefighter would be better than no one? A decent discussion followed to which most of us agreed that any firefighter with basic interior training would be far better than no one. Hard to disagree with. This should not be an excuse not to conduct more training, but instead should establish a baseline to build from.

You need people ready to react, but requiring advanced training to the point that you cannot field a RIT in a reasonable amount of time is asking for trouble. So while you have highly certified and equipped FAST it does little good in the station or only on drill nights.

For those of you with LE background, think of this as the "active shooter" scenario. Far too few PD's could field a SWAT team in time so procedures have changed to ensure routine LEO's can react rapidly to dynamic incidents.

Edited January 27, 2010 by antiquefirelt

[BFD1054 1,552]

Is kudos really needed just because they did what they should do? Every firefighter is taught that if you can not complete an assignment you need to notify the IC. This is mandatory. If you can not respond for any reason, manpower, mechanical, your own calls, etc. you advise dispatch.

I see a major problem within your statement. They can send an engine company but not one that is trained well enough to be a "FAST". In general the concept of having mutual aid depts provide FAST makes sense if your dept is not big enough to have enough interior trained personnel on scene to do attack (including search and all other functions) and FAST. Also many VFD's FAST on mutual aid is based on sending its "best" which is not a bad idea, but if they can send an engine crew, that is not good enough to be FAST, thanks but no thanks. I do not want to be working inside a working fire knowing that the guys on my back up line are not trained or experienced enough to save me if something goes wrong!!!!

If you said they could not get out I would accept before I'd except we can only send partially trained FF's.

If you are not trained to save your brothers you are not a firefighter. Do not get on the rig.

Sorry for using kudos, maybe youre right. You're damn right they did what they should have done. My point was that there may be some depts that wouldnt do the right thing. "Eh, we have 2 FAST members, 1 interior and 2 probies, but F it, lets roll anyway." Not a direct quote obviously, just an example.

You say you have a major problem with my statement. My statement is based soley on what occurred during this incident. Yes, they could provide an engine, but not a FAST. I would hope that said provided engine had all interior qualified members. They could not provide a FAST because they did not have enough FAST qualified members. FAST members must go through additional classes/training and train at least once a month in those specific skills. Trust me, i agree 100% that EVERY firefighter should be FAST/RIT qualified, or just be able to rescue a fellow FF, period.

You say that some VFD's send "their best" on mutual aid calls. I would hope they dont just send "their best," but those members who are properly trained for whats being asked of them.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I know one member here was peeved that the discussion has as much of, if not more to do with FAST/RIT than the actual Mohegan Lake fire title at this point.

Well, the board is a bit short on information about this particular incident right now, maybe more will come in.

In the meantime, to see this much discussion and interest in FAST/RIT work, is in my opinion FANTASTIC.

Not so many years ago, I remember many Incident Commanders grappling with the concept of RIT; being resistive of it because in many cases the arguement was there wasn't adequate manpower for the fire attack, let alone dedicating members to "do nothing" but stand-by, watch and the key ingredient "be ready."

The OSHA standard has been effective in that the discussion has evolved to this point; where being RIT qualified is actually additional training, a different mindset on the fireground, and departments have moved up to, and are maybe still challenged by the standard.

Firefighter Survival has become "mandatory" for RIT, as has the actual RIT training.

It has been incorporated into the standard curriculum for firefighter training.

Tools, techniques, improvements, have exploded from being rare, to being standard.

I'm glad I lived to see this day.

[Beekman 5]

01-05-0018 Firefighter Assist and Search Team (FAST)

The firefighter as a member of a FAST operation will identify the tools and staffing requirements for a FAST operation; develop a rescue plan for a missing, lost, or trapped firefighter; demonstrate rope search techniques; and demonstrate removing a firefighter/victim up a stairwell, up or down through a hole in a floor/roof, moving a downed firefighter out of a window, and lowering a firefighter down a ladder. This course requires students to perform a number of practical evolutions with self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA).

Designed For:Fire service personnelCourse Length:16 hours

[Bnechis 3,961]

BNechis I know in a few a depts. Including mine if you haven't gone through fast training you don't go to a fast call.

Again my issue is if a member does not have FAST training then they are not an interior qualified firefighter.

When I joined basic and intermediate didn't include f.a.s.t You had to take ff. Survival then f.a.s.t. if you haven't taken those courses then you don't go on fast calls. In career academy I'm sure its part of the training and maybe even included in ff 1 or 2

Yes it is part of the career academy. Just because it is not included does not mean a department can't or should not require it.

When we talk about the different training standards, I find it amazing that any chief would consider sending a member (his "brother") into a working fire without having been trained in survival. And not requiring them to know what to do if a "brother" gets in trouble.

01-05-0018 Firefighter Assist and Search Team (FAST)

The firefighter as a member of a FAST operation will identify the tools and staffing requirements for a FAST operation; develop a rescue plan for a missing, lost, or trapped firefighter; demonstrate rope search techniques; and demonstrate removing a firefighter/victim up a stairwell, up or down through a hole in a floor/roof, moving a downed firefighter out of a window, and lowering a firefighter down a ladder. This course requires students to perform a number of practical evolutions with self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA).

Designed For:Fire service personnelCourse Length:16 hours

So based on previous postings and OFPC's discription of FAST, we have departments that are willing to send members into burning buildings that do not know how do the above listed skills. Why bother having a fire department at all, it is clear that these departments do not care about there members or the public if they are so willing to put themselves at risk, because 16 hours is way to much time to invest in ones brother.

PLEASE THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT THIS....IF YOUR DEPARTMENT ALLOWS THIS, IT NEEDS TO CHANGE TODAY.