Vulcan's play the race card in order to get minorities hired

[Monty 35]

I'm just wondering since so many career firefighters begin their affiliation with the fire service in volunteer companies; how many "black" brothers/sisters do we have volunteering in the tri-state area?

Anybody from any volunteer agency, FD/EMS/Auxiliary Police please share with the forum if you have any minorities on your departments? What is the "percentage" of minority membership in volunteer emergency services?

Seems that no "judge" would ever consider that members of volunteer departments gain valuable knowledge and experience while volunteering in their communities, and this often times leads to those members scoring well on city administered tests; and therefore getting a high enough grade to be hired.

Did the judge in the latest ruling regarding FDNY membership even KNOW of the commitment that some members make, for many years, in volunteer agencies? I dare say....NOT!

I hope I don't get rebuked because I don't have absolute, contract facts, but my local community has a significant percentage of minortity groups. The Fire Department is beginning to reflect this when you look at the recent intake of volunteers. That said, the newest groups of immigrants have a much lower representation - maybe because it is too far out of their comfort zone.

The quotes below are well written and help me at least understand what they are getting at. When I first took civil service tests (never FDNY, too old by the time I decided I wanted to) I wondered what these had to do with the job. I've been fortunate to get a good education and have always done well - although maybe still not good enough. But taking these tests, I've wondered how they apply to the real world? I've taken some tests in Connectituct where you get credit for Certifications - those should help show aptitude for the job (Please lets stay away from what certification means

How does an amazing vocabulary, expert knowledge of grammar, wonderful spelling help you be a better firefighter? Problem is how do you qualify what a good firefighter is, or what makes a good firefighter and how do you test for that? Given the magnitude of FDNY tests you obviously can't put everyone through the academy. You probably can't even offer free participation at the academy because then you would need financial support.

I belive there is veterans credit (after all Emergency Services are quasi-military organisation) - but how do you test for physcial, psychological, sociological, mechanical, stress resistance, mental aptitude (besides good military service)? It can be done, less emphasis on the written test, more on these other tests, but that would be way more expensive - and again how do you decide the top few percentage that you are going to bring on?

I guess over the years they haven't found a better way (other than arguably residency credit) - but looks like they may have to at least think about it.

The argument is not that the firefighters or test writers are racists. It starts with the dept not being able to prove that the test did anything to help select better firefighters. First class or last class and you're still getting firefighters with similar pass rates and similar promotions rates. The tests in question had an higher failure rate amongst minorities. Traditionally in any standardized test, your basic education has a lot to do with how well you do on the test. Poor people get a crappier education than rich people. Its not all society, there are many factors including family and community issues. Here in grand ol' NYC the vast majority of our minorities come from garbage communities with weak schools, broken homes, and little community support. They are not going to do as well as better educated people who grew up in better communities with better schools. It just so happens these better communities are a little heavy on the white end of the spectrum. SO, what is really a poverty bias takes on a racial bias. In the Jim Crow south there were many laws put into place to disenfranchise blacks without explicitly preventing blacks from voting. Things like property ownership requirements and literacy requirements while not explicitly targeting blacks were used to target them. So piles of precedent and case law were developed to prevent those types of actions. This is the same principal that the city has lost on. The test wasn't intentionally racist, but it had the unintended consequence of placing a greater hurdle in the way of minorities. Now if you can create a test that directly speaks towards someone's ability as a firefighter or aptitude for becoming a firefighter you can test away to your hearts content. That is why you have the latest test created by the city. While it appears to be a lot of bullshit and unimportant babble, the test was essentially a pshych profile. I hope this made sense and didn't ramble too much. If it did, then why are you still reading?

You left out one very important point that I want to make, the test may be unintentionallly biased: do a simple word association cup and ? To a white kid who grew up on military bases with that horrible military issue stoneware; they will say mug or coffee, a english kid might say tea, a kid from scarsdale might say saucer. The correct answer FOR THE TEST is saucer but the other two weren't wrong, culturally they gave the correct answer. That is the kind of thing that slants a test. Yes, test prep manuals do help overcome that but it doesn't change the fact the tests may have a bias. FTR, I don't agree with what this judge did, I think it is wrong and do more harm to fdny then help make the situation better.

[CFD320 35]

We read these articles all the time. Can someone please explain to me how a test can discriminate against someone based on race????

What are the actual arguments that are made by the Vulcans and their counsel?

The judge actually is not citing that the questions on the test are discriminatory at all....No BS

If you download and read the 50+ page opinion that Judge Garaufis released with his ruling he leans on a theory of liability called "Disparate Impact" which prohibits an employer from using a facially neutral employment practice that has an unjustified adverse impact on members of a protected class....

"""The disparate impact theory of liability will succeed if the plaintiff can prove that these employment policies had the effect of excluding persons who are members of Title VII's protected classes. Once disparate impact is established, the employer must justify the continued use of the procedure or procedures causing the adverse impact as a "business necessity."

Proof of discriminatory motive is not required, because in these types of cases Congress is concerned with the consequences of employment practices, not simply the motivation. If the employer proves that the requirement being challenged is job related, the plaintiff must then show that other selection devices without a similar discriminatory effect would also serve the employer's legitimate interest in efficient workmanship."""

In plain English this means; because non-Asian minorities failed the test at a higher rate than white males the test is automatically deemed discriminatory Under Title VII. It wouldn't matter if the test questions were connect the dots. If minorities don't pass the test at a rate close to that of white males the test discriminates against them. Crazy huh?????

Link to Chief Mannix Group:

http://meritmattersusa.blogspot.com

[Guest CFFD85]

dis⋅crim⋅i⋅na⋅tion  

–noun

1. an act or instance of discriminating.

2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.

4. Archaic. something that serves to differentiate.

In my opinion number 2 seems to hit the nail on the head. It seems we can all take the same test and because I spent my free time studying and working hard to get a good grade i should have less of a chance of getting the job because I am a white male. The most qualified person should get the job. I am sure the people that are in need of help don't care what race the person helping them is, but i do think they want the most qualified person.

[ny10570 745]

CFD320, thanks for the detailed post. That is the accurate and technical end of my early morning babble.

If the city can prove the test filters out the best people for the job, then the test stands. FDNY couldn't do that. So, what makes for the best qualified candidate? You must use a test that has been proven to be job related or affect everyone the same. Yes, the vulcans are flipping idiots who would rather see this job torn to pieces if it meant more blacks in their ranks. If they were truly worried about quality minority candidates entering the FD they would have been out there recruiting them. As soon as the city put together a real recruitment drive they wound up with an estimated 20% minorities expected to be hired (at least before the economy went south). Worst case scenario the city has to pull minorities from the established list. These are still people who did well enough on the test to get a list number. These are people who maybe would have gotten on the job without all this.

[hudson144 150]

If I was on a list above others,white/black/spanish and whatever other races and the City was going to be forced to hire below my number I would certainly start a class action lawsuit to stop the bs. We are all created equal and are given the chance to practice both the written and agility for these jobs. It comes down to how hard you want to apply yourself. Many careers have all working in them,They just don't handout degrees to be Doctors,lawyers,pilots etc. Why is it that the Fire Department is treated differently? Case closed- Fight the Fight!

[ny10570 745]

doctors, lawyers, pilots, etc the test is after the training. Everyone then has the same knowledge base.

[16fire5 693]

I wish they would publish the tests so people could see how easy they were. More than 500 and I'm sure close to 1000 got a perfect 100 on the 1999 test. I'm sorry the job is technical and and you need some ability to read and put that to work for you. The FDNY possibly has the most extensive set of procedures and part of a probies training involves reading them and making notebook entries. Everything in technical now be it window blankets, pro pressure govenors, gas meters. I think those written tests with the older more strenous physical gave us good firefighter canidates regargless of race or sex.

[hudson144 150]

Tomorrow at 4:30 pm on the Steve Malzberg show tune in and listen to DC Mannix speak about this same very topic, 70.1 am on your dial.

[gamewell45 258]

How come they don't seem to have this problem in the Corrections Dept. where the majority of the work force is Minority. There aren't too many Caucasians in this field of employment and not a word about it. Did it ever occur to anybody that some people may just not be interested in a particular Profession. I still don't know why the NBA will not lower their standards to recruit more white professional Basketball Players. It's only fair.

The NBA was historically "majority white" until the early 1970's. The Boston Celtics were the only team to be able to field a "white" starting lineup as late as 1986.

[EXDC203 38]

Black,White,Brown,Yellow....Male or Female....You beat me on the test.......YOU GET THE JOB!

[16fire5 693]

DC Manix on 710 AM right now speaking his peace.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

DC Manix on 710 AM right now speaking his peace.

Can you maybe post an updater later about what he said? I'd love to read about it.

[hudson144 150]

Go to you tube-search for DC Paul Mannix FDNY president merit matters,5 min audio clip from the Steve Malzberg show. Jan 25,2010

Edited January 26, 2010 by hudson144

[R1SmokeEater 359]

Go to you tube-search for DC Paul Mannix FDNY president merit matters,5 min audio clip from the Steve Malzberg show. Jan 25,2010

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Go to you tube-search for DC Paul Mannix FDNY president merit matters,5 min audio clip from the Steve Malzberg show. Jan 25,2010

Thanks to both of you. Interesting interview. The chief sure had his facts ready. It's hard for me to understand that the effort they've been making, plus 20 million dollars spent for recruitment, hasn't been at least acknowleged by the judge who ruled against the department. C'mon already! What more are they supposed to do? Glad to hear it sounds like Bloomy and his administration are going to appeal that ridiculous ruling. A "stain" on the department? More like a stain on the judge's robe!

[Alpinerunner 61]

I agree, the aricle by the Pres of the Vulcans only points to racism amongst the members of the FDNY, and it doesn't even say it's widespread or still persistent.

The letter does not say anything about the written test being biased. The only way the test could be biased would be if the questions were based on Pop-culture, because that's the only area where the various races' knowledge-base differs. Not that one race knows more than another... but it's the only thing I can think of where it's simply different.

[hudson144 150]

Some words from karen Torre, New Haven20 Attorney:

Spilled Chili And Other Liberal Nonsense

By KAREN LEE TORRE

As if the New York City Fire Department has nothing better to do, U.S. District Judge Nicholas G. Garaufis has ensured that it will be embroiled in court proceedings for years, at enormous public expense, and for unsound reasons.

By judicial fiat, Garaufis invalidated FDNY hiring exams as discriminatory against African Americans. Acting as if racial imbalance in the FDNY was a social anomaly and the handiwork of racists in city government, Garaufis managed to transform nationally common statistical disparities in qualification rates into a ridiculous finding that city officials intentionally discriminated against blacks.

In an intellectually indefensible leapfrog, Garaufis cites the racial gap seen over years of fire department testing and concludes that this amounts to intentional discrimination because city officials were aware of this racial gap for years. This non sequitur is a convenient shield against a constitutional attack on one of the most obnoxious “remedies” in judicial history. Crude, standardless racial quota hiring will now be imposed.

Notably, and for reasons that ring hollow, Garaufis exempted New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg from the politically injurious “intentional discriminator” label. Bloomberg just happens to be the one who will decide how far the city will challenge Garaufis’ rulings. The seemingly irrational drawing of a line at the mayor’s door, while besmirching the reputations of the less powerful on the city’s political ladder, gives rise to the appearance of a judicial move calculated to increase the chances that New York City will acquiesce in this judicial intrusion into its affairs.

Bloomberg should not capitulate. He should fight it tooth and nail or Garaufis will be his new fire chief and take over the FDNY for life. Other like judges have done that and wrecked the agencies of which they took control.

Even before Garaufis, the FDNY, responding to pressure from race mongers, dumbed down its tests to the point they became a joke. Here is one of many outrageous examples: One test actually asked candidates what they should do if they discovered that a co-worker spilled chili on the floor and didn’t wipe it up. Adding to this nonsense, more than one of the moronic multiple choice answers was correct. Firefighters erupted in protest and disgust over this assault on their professional standards, right in the city where hundreds of firefighters lost their lives.

Even the spilled-chili type of questions won’t satisfy liberal activist judges, who know nothing about the jobs of these heroes, show little respect for them or concerns for their safety, and issue these offensive edicts from the safety and comfort of their chambers. That these lunatic rulings come almost entirely from President Bill Clinton appointees (and will no doubt proliferate under President Barack Obama-appointed “judges”) should be laid out for voters in November.

While we’re at it, let’s not stop with spilled chili for firefighters. Let Garaufis extend his logic to fix the racial gap in bar exam pass rates and stop pretending that education and knowledge are important to our jobs. Ditch those unfair questions about property and contracts. Let’s learn from the learned Garaufis. Here’s a suggested question on a judicially reformed multistate exam:

A witness you are cross-examining at trial starts to pick his nose. What should you do?

A. Yell, “Dude, you’re grossing me out” in front of the jury.

B. Offer the witness some Kleenex.

C. Move to strike the snot.

D. Start picking your own nose so the witness does not feel isolated.

Answer key: Both B and C are correct and you get two extra points if you are oppressed.

Maybe Garaufis will compromise and allow New York City to change the spilled chili hypothetical to at least add that the chili is on fire.

Disgusted firefighters from around the nation are, at last, organizing nationally to fight against this elitist judicial assault on their profession – an overdue and welcome development.

Recently, countless thousands of firefighters gathered in New York to bury one of their own killed in the line of duty. The hero left behind a wife and beautiful little daughters. His twin brother, also a firefighter, must now bear an unspeakable pain for the rest of his own life. Mayor Bloomberg – do the right thing. Don’t let robed elitists make a joke of your fire department.•

Karen Lee Torre, a New Haven trial lawyer, litigates civil rights issues in the federal courts. Her e-mail address is thimbleislands@sbcglobal.net

Edited February 12, 2010 by hudson144

[FireMedic049 597]

Outstanding!

[Lucifer 6]

doctors, lawyers, pilots, etc the test is after the training. Everyone then has the same knowledge base.

What a great idea! If you want to be a firefighter, you have to graduate from "firefighter school". Complete FF 1&2 w/ national certification, then you can sit for the test for what ever municipality is hiring. Kinda like working as a Paramedic or an RN. Ya' gotta be one first. The test could be job related based on K/S/A for FF I&II. Doesn't Florida do something like this?? Maybe NY needs to.

[hudson144 150]

Lucifer- sounds great but the Vulcans would have a lawsuit for biased standards to be a Firefighter. Hey speaking of a biased crime- Imagine if 12 white members of another society protested in writing and in person to the mayor of a certain city the promotion of 2 Black Firefighters, the 12 guys would have been arrested for a biased crime and labeled as Racists! The Vulcans need to be put in their place where they have no say with no outdated Racist decree!