Vulcan's play the race card in order to get minorities hired

[paratrooper75 41]

This is the biggest joke I've ever heard!!!!! Now people like me who did well on the test and worked hard to get through the process are going to be put on hold so they can hire people who couldn't hack it the first time around and are now only getting hired do to the color of their skin. And this decision isn't racist? Heres to every single person on list 6019 getting a lawyer.

NY must pay for blocking minority firefighters

Fri, Jan 22, 2010

Reuters

NEW YORK - New York City must compensate minorities who were prevented from becoming firefighters by the fire department's discriminatory exams and devise new tests that are not biased, a federal judge ruled on Thursday.

http://www.asiaone.c...122-193638.html

Heat turned up on FDNY to pay for bias against minorities denied jobs

BY JOHN MARZULLI

DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Friday, January 22nd 2010, 4:00 AM

A Federal judge is threatening to impose racial hiring quotas on the FDNY if the city doesn't get moving on compensation for hundreds of minorities who suffered discrimination.

http://www.nydailyne...y_for_bias.html

Edited January 22, 2010 by jack10562
News Source Site Copyright Notice

[mfc2257 464]

We read these articles all the time. Can someone please explain to me how a test can discriminate against someone based on race????

What are the actual arguments that are made by the Vulcans and their counsel?

[FFFORD 27]

It is B.S. i agree. i cant stand hearing about this stuff anymore. whatever happened to the best man for the job?

Can someone please explain to me how a test can discriminate against someone based on race????

I want to know too.

[JAD622 40]

We read these articles all the time. Can someone please explain to me how a test can discriminate against someone based on race????

What are the actual arguments that are made by the Vulcans and their counsel?

I've wondered the same thing for years.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

It can still be appealed.....this is very worrying and concerning...

[IzzyEng4 427]

We read these articles all the time. Can someone please explain to me how a test can discriminate against someone based on race????

What are the actual arguments that are made by the Vulcans and their counsel?

Simple and its across all racial heritages when I say this, "You don't need to study or go to school to do a firemen's job." Seems like that's the attitude for some people now a days.

Isn't it amazing that everytime we take a step forward in this country we take three steps back?

I don't care what ethnic or religious back ground you are, a guy or a girl, either you can do the job or can't, thus you can either pass the test or not. Plain and simple, black and white on the paper.

[Mac8146 61]

I cannot understand how a written test can discriminate. The test for FDNY is given by DCAS not the FDNY. The whole idea this is FDNY generated is a disgrace.The hiring process is not really conducted by FDNY the DCAS people administer the test and the physical part. FDNY does the medicals and investigation only after DCAS certifies a list to be used. This judge may become the new Sifton in what he will do to the FDNY. Time for Vulcans to grow up and be men and not expect things to be handed to them, too many great minority firefighters will know doubt be saddened by this change if it happens, no more merit system.

[jd783 64]

A judgement like this will fuel racisim within the fire dept. When someone feels you did not earn your way onto the fire dept a natural hatred will develope, this applies to all races. I belive the vulcans want to create a hostile work enviorment and will cry racism forever no matter what they get, without the cry of racism their organization has no meaning to exist, it dosent matter what color your skin if you earn the job and work hard you will be respected as a FIREFIGHTER

[Mofire24 27]

This is a disgrace ! I have taken this test the last three times it was offered I felt it was not a discriminatory test. If anything everyone that was smart enough too pass this test should sue the vulcan's. I can honestly say I wanted that job since I was alittle kid and the last 3 exams were getting thrown out because someone can't study and follow directions. The last test I took the person sitting next too me asked for a new answer sheet because he could not follow directions and see where the answers go. Sorry too vent but everytime I hear this it get's me mad.

[hudson144 150]

Paratrooper- its time for guys like you to get together with the other thousands of guys on the list to go against this legally- You can't win anything unless the group of you get together and fight! I know 1st hand the results of the racially motivated cowardness of the vulcans- a fraternal order of black firefighters who should not be acknowledged from the 1st place. Imagine if the Emerald Society pulled this crap! It would be discrimination, I can say this because I have experienced it 1st hand. TIME TO FIGHt AND STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS!, You do have them. This would be the best time for a class action lawsuit! I know a lawyer who might be interested!!!

Edited January 22, 2010 by hudson144

[JBE 328]

Previous post from another thread on this board:

How much more watered down does the test have to be?? I mean, there was a picture in one of the questions on the 2007 open competitive that said, "The fire chief wears a white helmet, find him in this picture." A drunken teenager could have passed that test. How much money was invested in the last test and recruitment?? You can lead a horse to water...

Has it ever occured to the Vulcan Society that maybe, just maybe, there is a majority of the minority who DON'T want the job?? Kindly refer to my last remark regarding the horse. How much further backwards does the city and the FDNY have to bend over, before someone says, "That's enough"???

I took the written exam 3 times, and missed a 4th due to my military service. Failed the physical the first and third times, blew off the second due to personal obligations(rassum frassum ex-wife!!!!) Now, I'm 36 and too old. I have nobody to blame but myself. I didn't put in the training and dedication required. Furthermore I have no intention of saying I was discriminated against, I just didn't put forth the effort. Maybe that's something the Vulcans should look into, making sure the people they so desparately want to get on the job PUT FORTH THE EFFORT!!!!

We may live in the land of opportunity, but the opportunity can only become a reality if you work for it, not if it's handed to you.

[hudson144 150]

The problem is the overall numbers, however this should not make the rules to be changed. Lowering standards etc. Right now the city of chicago wants to do away with the written exam to get more minorities on the job. Imagine how a minority firefighter must feel after he busted his butt both for the written and agility tests to get on the job. Not all are in favor of affirmative action especially the man/woman who got into the position by hard work and merit! Many firefighters feel that on the fireground is where you gain respect of your peers,not by what your race is. I know a few that shouldn't be OTJ when it comes to the dedication and work ethic. Yes- some of you are probably reading this right now. MERIT Matters for all.....

[FirNaTine 370]

We should all adopt the Standards of Orange Cnty, Calif..It appears they don't put up with any of this B/S! You can't do the Job take a Hike! Nobody owes you or any other ethnic group anything, period! Get friggin over it already.

[abaduck 123]

I've previously posted this elsewhere, and I make no apology for repeating it here:

Now I'm a relatively recent immigrant to the USA (a transplanted Scotsman), I don't really 'get' American racial politics or American attitudes to race at all. And I'm fairly new to the fire service. But:

"Last July, the judge ruled that the exams used to screen applicants between 1999 and 2007 were slanted against blacks."

Could someone please explain to me how, in the 21st century, a judge can say that with a straight face? Last time I checked, all brain matter was grey, not white, black, or anything else. How do you 'slant' an exam against someone who has black skin? I don't believe it's possible.

Either you're smart, or dumb as a brick.

Either you're fit, or you're not.

Either you work hard, or you're lazy.

Either you give 110%, or you're on cruise control.

But... either you're black, or you're white?

To even suggest that it's POSSIBLE to 'slant' exams in such a way that black candidates will do worse than white candidates seems to me to be a profoundly racist statement. I do not, and fear/hope I never will, understand it.

[nycemt326 6]

I cannot understand how a written test can discriminate. The test for FDNY is given by DCAS not the FDNY. The whole idea this is FDNY generated is a disgrace.The hiring process is not really conducted by FDNY the DCAS people administer the test and the physical part. FDNY does the medicals and investigation only after DCAS certifies a list to be used. This judge may become the new Sifton in what he will do to the FDNY. Time for Vulcans to grow up and be men and not expect things to be handed to them, too many great minority firefighters will know doubt be saddened by this change if it happens, no more merit system.

The problem is, members of the FDNY come up with the questions for the test for DCAS.

I took the last test in '07 and can't believe the whole "the test is discriminatory" argument. If minorities don't want the job, you cant force them to take the test. If they do take the test and fail, its nobodies fault but their own. It's really going downhill because of the Vulcans, they got the college credits reduced and now you just need to work a job for 6 months without any college, whats next? Completely eliminate the exam like Chicago is considering to do with PD? They shouldn't be called the Vulcans, they should be called the Vultures.

[FF402 133]

This article gives an interesting perspective:

http://www.thechief-leader.com/news/2008-02-15/letters/029.html

[abaduck 123]

This article gives an interesting perspective:

http://www.thechief-...etters/029.html

Interesting. Probably true; I'm sure there are racists in every department in the country. I'm sure black firefighters have been denied promotion, or failed out of courses or probation because of racism. Or just not got hired, or were discouraged from applying. I'm sure the Vulcans had a hell of a fight at times.

I don't see a single damn word in the article which explains the judges theory that it's possible to devise WRITTEN EXAMS which are slanted or biased against a particular skin colour.

So far the only overt racism I've read about in this case is from the judge.

[FirNaTine 370]

This article gives an interesting perspective:

http://www.thechief-leader.com/news/2008-02-15/letters/029.html

I know guys that work with the author of this article. They say he's another one that always has problems with his SCBA and disappears. What else is new.

[Mac8146 61]

nycemt while i understand some members of fdny do assist dcas with testing process they are not the sole question makers. This test is a basic written test with books available at any public library or bookstore to read as a prep. This whole issue makes the members of fdny look ridiculous, i have almost 27 years and never looked at race,creed, color or anything when it came to doing the job. The issue here should anger all minority firefighters who passed the same tests as all others, they are not treated differently,they are brothers or sisters of the fdny. I cannot believe this issue has reared its ugly head again, this is not a secret society or a club that picks and chooses it players, this is a job you have to desire to do with knowledge of the risks and dangers, not black not white just doing what you are called to do.

[nycemt326 6]

nycemt while i understand some members of fdny do assist dcas with testing process they are not the sole question makers. This test is a basic written test with books available at any public library or bookstore to read as a prep. This whole issue makes the members of fdny look ridiculous, i have almost 27 years and never looked at race,creed, color or anything when it came to doing the job. The issue here should anger all minority firefighters who passed the same tests as all others, they are not treated differently,they are brothers or sisters of the fdny. I cannot believe this issue has reared its ugly head again, this is not a secret society or a club that picks and chooses it players, this is a job you have to desire to do with knowledge of the risks and dangers, not black not white just doing what you are called to do.

Thanks for the clarification, from what I understood it was fdny members designed the whole test.

I agree completely with everything else you have said.

This article gives an interesting perspective:

http://www.thechief-leader.com/news/2008-02-15/letters/029.html

Great story, but still doesn't justify the Vulcan's proposal that six of every ten new hires need to be black or Hispanic.

[ajsbear 11]

Why doesn't every group get up and say they are discriminated against? What is the ratio of Asian or Indian firefighters. Jewish or any other religion? If you want to talk about equality for the masses, add them all in not just one group. I agree with many, how does a written test discriminate unless you don't know how to read or comprehend the question.

If you can't figure out Johnny has $1 and want to buy 2 apples at 3 for 89 cents what does it cost? Is it discrimination because of the name they used? Is that it.

You're in a smoke filled room wearing a scott pulling ceilings. Another firefighter comes in to help, full PPE, mask, hood etc. It's dark and smokey, who cares what ethnic background or color he or she is. Someone came in to help with the heavy work. Same thing if your on a line and someone steps up to back you up.

[ny10570 745]

The argument is not that the firefighters or test writers are racists. It starts with the dept not being able to prove that the test did anything to help select better firefighters. First class or last class and you're still getting firefighters with similar pass rates and similar promotions rates. The tests in question had an higher failure rate amongst minorities. Traditionally in any standardized test, your basic education has a lot to do with how well you do on the test. Poor people get a crappier education than rich people. Its not all society, there are many factors including family and community issues. Here in grand ol' NYC the vast majority of our minorities come from garbage communities with weak schools, broken homes, and little community support. They are not going to do as well as better educated people who grew up in better communities with better schools. It just so happens these better communities are a little heavy on the white end of the spectrum. SO, what is really a poverty bias takes on a racial bias. In the Jim Crow south there were many laws put into place to disenfranchise blacks without explicitly preventing blacks from voting. Things like property ownership requirements and literacy requirements while not explicitly targeting blacks were used to target them. So piles of precedent and case law were developed to prevent those types of actions. This is the same principal that the city has lost on. The test wasn't intentionally racist, but it had the unintended consequence of placing a greater hurdle in the way of minorities. Now if you can create a test that directly speaks towards someone's ability as a firefighter or aptitude for becoming a firefighter you can test away to your hearts content. That is why you have the latest test created by the city. While it appears to be a lot of bullshit and unimportant babble, the test was essentially a pshych profile. I hope this made sense and didn't ramble too much. If it did, then why are you still reading?

[Mark Z 18]

The argument is not that the firefighters or test writers are racists. It starts with the dept not being able to prove that the test did anything to help select better firefighters. First class or last class and you're still getting firefighters with similar pass rates and similar promotions rates. The tests in question had an higher failure rate amongst minorities. Traditionally in any standardized test, your basic education has a lot to do with how well you do on the test. Poor people get a crappier education than rich people. Its not all society, there are many factors including family and community issues. Here in grand ol' NYC the vast majority of our minorities come from garbage communities with weak schools, broken homes, and little community support. They are not going to do as well as better educated people who grew up in better communities with better schools. It just so happens these better communities are a little heavy on the white end of the spectrum. SO, what is really a poverty bias takes on a racial bias. In the Jim Crow south there were many laws put into place to disenfranchise blacks without explicitly preventing blacks from voting. Things like property ownership requirements and literacy requirements while not explicitly targeting blacks were used to target them. So piles of precedent and case law were developed to prevent those types of actions. This is the same principal that the city has lost on. The test wasn't intentionally racist, but it had the unintended consequence of placing a greater hurdle in the way of minorities. Now if you can create a test that directly speaks towards someone's ability as a firefighter or aptitude for becoming a firefighter you can test away to your hearts content. That is why you have the latest test created by the city. While it appears to be a lot of bullshit and unimportant babble, the test was essentially a pshych profile. I hope this made sense and didn't ramble too much. If it did, then why are you still reading?

You left out one very important point that I want to make, the test may be unintentionallly biased: do a simple word association cup and ? To a white kid who grew up on military bases with that horrible military issue stoneware; they will say mug or coffee, a english kid might say tea, a kid from scarsdale might say saucer. The correct answer FOR THE TEST is saucer but the other two weren't wrong, culturally they gave the correct answer. That is the kind of thing that slants a test. Yes, test prep manuals do help overcome that but it doesn't change the fact the tests may have a bias. FTR, I don't agree with what this judge did, I think it is wrong and do more harm to fdny then help make the situation better.

[abaduck 123]

You left out one very important point that I want to make, the test may be unintentionallly biased: do a simple word association cup and ? To a white kid who grew up on military bases with that horrible military issue stoneware; they will say mug or coffee, a english kid might say tea, a kid from scarsdale might say saucer. The correct answer FOR THE TEST is saucer but the other two weren't wrong, culturally they gave the correct answer. That is the kind of thing that slants a test. Yes, test prep manuals do help overcome that but it doesn't change the fact the tests may have a bias. FTR, I don't agree with what this judge did, I think it is wrong and do more harm to fdny then help make the situation better.

Pardon me for not pulling punches, but that's a dumb example: there IS no 'correct' answer to a word association test! Such a question has no place in an exam - not because it's somehow biased but because it *has no single correct answer* (as you go part-way towards pointing out). Word association is for a psych interview, not a graded test!

[BKeane 0]

Reverse discrimination at its finest! Just another reason this country is going to hell quickly, doesn't make sense to me to give the unqualified (no matter what color they are) a position they DON'T deserve. People in high places, ie politicians, better start getting off the "politically correct" bandwagon and begin to realize they are destroying the fabric of this country allowing such ridiculous decisions. If everyone is equal, and skin color doesn't matter in this country, then why do certain groups continually claim that their skin color entitles them to different standards? Vulcan is allowed to get away with it, but god forbid an "irish american" group protested something in this manner, they would be ruled against and probably be called insensitive racists! A complete double standard and there will never be true equality until everyone gets treated the same in every situation.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

For a group that calls themselves "Vulcans", they sure don't advocate anything "reasonable or logical" in this old Trekkie's mind, so they should start by changing the organization's name to something more appropriate... like "Angry Men."

Vulcans are a humanoid species in the fictional Star Trek universe who evolved on the planet Vulcan, and are noted for their attempt to live by reason and logic with no interference from emotion. They were the first extraterrestrial species to officially make first contact with Humans, and later became one of the founding members of the United Federation of Planets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(Star_Trek)

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I have been a volunteer firefighter for the last 21 years. I have never been paid to do the job but I would be willing to bet the philosophy is the same. I don't care if you are black, white, green or whatever color you choose. If you come into the job and step up to the plate and pull your share of the load there is no problem with acceptance. I can't imagine that if there was a black firefighter on the job in NYC or anywhere else, if you did your job, you would not be promoted. It is all about respect. If you earn respect you will get it. If you are slug who gets lost when the work starts, well.......thats another thing.

I'm just wondering since so many career firefighters begin their affiliation with the fire service in volunteer companies; how many "black" brothers/sisters do we have volunteering in the tri-state area?

Anybody from any volunteer agency, FD/EMS/Auxiliary Police please share with the forum if you have any minorities on your departments? What is the "percentage" of minority membership in volunteer emergency services?

Seems that no "judge" would ever consider that members of volunteer departments gain valuable knowledge and experience while volunteering in their communities, and this often times leads to those members scoring well on city administered tests; and therefore getting a high enough grade to be hired.

Did the judge in the latest ruling regarding FDNY membership even KNOW of the commitment that some members make, for many years, in volunteer agencies? I dare say....NOT!

[Guest Firediver]

Reply from DC Mannix FDNY to above letter from Mr. Coombs. Please forgive me if link does not work.

http://www.nycfirefighter.com/Reports-from-the-Field/Rebuttal-to-Vulcan-President-Firefighter-John-Coombs.html

Edited January 23, 2010 by Firediver

[Mark Z 18]

Pardon me for not pulling punches, but that's a dumb example: there IS no 'correct' answer to a word association test! Such a question has no place in an exam - not because it's somehow biased but because it *has no single correct answer* (as you go part-way towards pointing out). Word association is for a psych interview, not a graded test!

No I won't pardon you, you don't need to be pardoned! I agree that is a dumb example but I was what I came up with as I was typing and I used it to hopefully make the point, sorry if my poor example further clouded the issue. I didn't mean to indicate that word association belonged in the qualification part of the process either. That is one thing I like about this and other firefighting boards, people aren't afraid to step up and let you know that you don't always get your point across the way you think you did!

Edited January 23, 2010 by Mark Z

[FirNaTine 370]

How come they don't seem to have this problem in the Corrections Dept. where the majority of the work force is Minority. There aren't too many Caucasians in this field of employment and not a word about it. Did it ever occur to anybody that some people may just not be interested in a particular Profession. I still don't know why the NBA will not lower their standards to recruit more white professional Basketball Players. It's only fair.