Croton Falls Working Fire 01-17-10

[JFLYNN 681]

I noticed in reading the IA on the Croton Falls Fire that it was dispatched at 1605 and at 1617 the Somers Ladder was "waiting for more manpower"...(12 minutes after the initial response) What does this mean exactly? Is this ladder part of the initial assignment? Were there other ladder companies responding? How long after 1617 did this ladder company actually respond and with how many personnel? This was on a weekend afternoon. I'm surprised that there would be any problem with manpower. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of responders in this area too?

[MJP399 4]

Excellent job Croton Falls, seems like a quick knockdown, and use of the tankers, could you elaborate, on the use of the tankers, since many Northern Communities rely on them. Excellent job.

[x635 4,066]

I noticed in reading the IA on the Croton Falls Fire that it was dispatched at 1605 and at 1617 the Somers Ladder was "waiting for more manpower"...(12 minutes after the initial response) What does this mean exactly? Is this ladder part of the initial assignment? Were there other ladder companies responding? How long after 1617 did this ladder company actually respond and with how many personnel? This was on a weekend afternoon. I'm surprised that there would be any problem with manpower. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of responders in this area too?

Somers is a very large district, and the closest members usually get the apparatus while the rest respond to the scene. When there's rain and ice on the roadway, it may take a little longer for those members to arrive safely at the firehouse. Somers also won't leave the district on mutual aid without a fully certified interior crew (usually 5+) on the truck. Somers responded right after that transmission was made. They could have responded right away with the apparatus if needed as they had a driver, but the aerial company is no good without a crew.

I know both Somers and Brewster have automatic aid agreements for truck companies with some structures (like the nursing homes) in Croton Falls. Much of their district you'd have a lot of difficulty manuvering the truck into, and there are a lot of houses that aerials couldn't get to.

Should they have a quint? I think every district should, IMO, But they don't, and most often Brewster or Somers is close enough. They make use of their ground ladders, and only use an aerial if a master stream is needed or to make ventilation safer. I praise CFFD though for instructing companies to leave room for the truck, and I beleive Somers Ladder (the new Sutphen) was specifically requested due to it's size and spec that allowed it to access the scene.

There were also numerous personel on scene.

Don't forget, when you read the Incident Alert, times are usually aproximated. For a volunteer department, the time of dispatch, the time the IC gets on scene (and makes requests), the time the first due company gets on scene, the time the mutual aid gets on scene......is completly different then the time structure of a career department.

[220LT188 11]

I noticed in reading the IA on the Croton Falls Fire that it was dispatched at 1605 and at 1617 the Somers Ladder was "waiting for more manpower"...(12 minutes after the initial response) What does this mean exactly? Is this ladder part of the initial assignment? Were there other ladder companies responding? How long after 1617 did this ladder company actually respond and with how many personnel? This was on a weekend afternoon. I'm surprised that there would be any problem with manpower. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of responders in this area too?

The ladder was not requested at the time of alarm...I do not know that exact time but definietly well after intial alarm. In upper Westchester there was an ice storm...heavy hail, sleet, freezing rain and freezing conditions on the roadways. The truck had six interior firefighters on it. Croton Falls does not have a truck..I know their engines carry truck equipment. The crew had called in on the first dispatch. Yes there is a problem with manpower but not just here but I believe county wide. The good things are that the IC did leave room for the truck in front of the building though maybe it should be called earlier and/or on the intial assignment. This is not an excuse or stand or rebuttle...just some information. Be Safe

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I read the beta incident alert as well. I couln't help but notice the ironic similarity to the Montrose incident in that a long driveway was described to the structure, but I also noticed the IC requested to leave room for the truck IFO the building (notwithstanding I had/have no criticism of Montrose's tactics).

I don't know the chief, the IC at this job, or any members from Croton Falls FD, but let me say this; if by chance the IC had come to this board and followed the discussion regarding the Montrose job, is it possible that was in the back of his mind, and therefore helped him make a very good call to notify units to leave room for the truck?

If the IC automatically thought to do that, and it had nothing to do with the evolving use of the site, well that just shows good leadership, so congrats to him and the rest of CFFD; respective of the very limited information I have seen. But if emtbravo's information helped the IC, that would also be a very good thing wouldn't it?

~Just an opinion

Edited January 18, 2010 by efdcapt115

[Guest DFFD227]

I am very familiar with this incident....

Upon dispatch, multiple Croton Falls units signed on responding since they just cleared from an EMS call. Prior to any unit getting on scene, car 2071 requested 1 engine and 1 tanker from Goldens bridge, and 1 tanker from Somers. Very shortly after this request, 2074 signed on location reporting heavy fire through the roof of a 3 1/2 story wood framed structure. The request for L48 (Somers) was made a few minutes after 2071 arrived on location. Being that Somers is a huge district, it did take them some time to respond, especially due to the extreme ice conditions. Also, Ladder 48 was the only ladder requested to the scene. In my opinion, these were appropriate response times due to the weather conditions, and due to how far out of the way this house was. I believe the 1st mutual aid tanker (Tanker 1) was on scene 9 minutes after the initial request.

[fireguy43 35]

A well worded reply. Good news is that someone had the correct information to explain what was going on. Bad news is that an explanation was necessary. We are all here to learn and share, not to be second guessed by people with no understanding of local geography, dispatch protocols, or equipment. It's getting a little old to read time and again how certain members disect every IA for precise times and raise questions that insinuate that things were not done correctly.

Somers is a very large district, and the closest members usually get the apparatus while the rest respond to the scene. When there's rain and ice on the roadway, it may take a little longer for those members to arrive safely at the firehouse. Somers also won't leave the district on mutual aid without a fully certified interior crew (usually 5+) on the truck. Somers responded right after that transmission was made. They could have responded right away with the apparatus if needed as they had a driver, but the aerial company is no good without a crew.

I know both Somers and Brewster have automatic aid agreements for truck companies with some structures (like the nursing homes) in Croton Falls. Much of their district you'd have a lot of difficulty manuvering the truck into, and there are a lot of houses that aerials couldn't get to.

Should they have a quint? I think every district should, IMO, But they don't, and most often Brewster or Somers is close enough. They make use of their ground ladders, and only use an aerial if a master stream is needed or to make ventilation safer. I praise CFFD though for instructing companies to leave room for the truck, and I beleive Somers Ladder (the new Sutphen) was specifically requested due to it's size and spec that allowed it to access the scene.

There were also numerous personel on scene.

Don't forget, when you read the Incident Alert, times are usually aproximated. For a volunteer department, the time of dispatch, the time the IC gets on scene (and makes requests), the time the first due company gets on scene, the time the mutual aid gets on scene......is completly different then the time structure of a career department.

[Guest]

I don't think every time someone asks a question that its critical, and even if it is, I don't see why that is a bad thing. Poor manpower is a problem throughout the country and the county, and needs to be addressed. Seeing as how the ladder wasn't requested on the initial, it shows that the time delay may not be due to the lack of manpower. Most posts here have attributed it to the weather conditions. With that in mind, I ask why don't departments have manpower at the station during times when travel can be seriously impeded? if its icy, it generally increases the chance of running calls so it seems logical on both fronts to be ready to go. Do any volunteer departments have any (written/unwritten) ways of dealing with this problem that effects literally every department in the country?

[jd783 64]

Do you have chains for the rigs (on the tires). If so does the chief have members put them on if bad weather is expected? Also I live on the croton falls Mahopac boader and what we had that day was a light dusting of wet snow not a ice storm. We did have a ice storm up this way Dec 13th 2009 that closed many roads and caused many accidents this was not even close to that

[JM15 386]

We do have chains but they don't really help on ice or small amounts of snow (they actually slow you down)... I think the reccomendation is anything more than 4 inches? Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[helicopper 1,050]

A well worded reply. Good news is that someone had the correct information to explain what was going on. Bad news is that an explanation was necessary. We are all here to learn and share, not to be second guessed by people with no understanding of local geography, dispatch protocols, or equipment. It's getting a little old to read time and again how certain members disect every IA for precise times and raise questions that insinuate that things were not done correctly.

Yes, we are here to share and learn but we're also here to be advocates for our disciplines and the public. If there's an issue with personnel, response times, equipment, training, or other things it is entirely appropriate to discuss it in forums like this and hopefully in board rooms and meeting rooms across the County.

It is only a matter of time before the public (or their insurance companies) starts holding us accountable for our budgets and our services and explaining why NFPA minimum standards for things like response times and personnel aren't being met.

I think what's getting old is that the same issues are being raised time and time again and nothing is being done to correct deficiencies or improve the level of service provided. Everyone seems too comfortable with the status quo. As I've said time and time again, stick to fighting the issues not the critics. If the issues are resolved, the critics will have nothing to say.

I don't think every time someone asks a question that its critical, and even if it is, I don't see why that is a bad thing. Poor manpower is a problem throughout the country and the county, and needs to be addressed. Seeing as how the ladder wasn't requested on the initial, it shows that the time delay may not be due to the lack of manpower. Most posts here have attributed it to the weather conditions. With that in mind, I ask why don't departments have manpower at the station during times when travel can be seriously impeded? if its icy, it generally increases the chance of running calls so it seems logical on both fronts to be ready to go. Do any volunteer departments have any (written/unwritten) ways of dealing with this problem that effects literally every department in the country?

Well said. How about adding a ladder company on automatic mutual aid instead of waiting to get there to request it, especially if response times due to geography and staffing are an issue?

There was a discussion about another department's "snow stand-by" not long ago. Do any other departments do that and how successful is it?

[JM15 386]

In Somers when the chief deems necessary members are paged out to report to their firehouses to chain apparatus. Once the work is done people usually stay around and BS for a couple of hours if not all night. If it is getting really bad we have in the past set up snow standbys once again by orders of the chief. We have had standbys for other weather events besides snow. Some that come to mind were blackouts, heavy rain and wind storms (tropical storms), Ice storms, etc. If the weather looks like it has the possibility to get bad then many members go to the firehouse on their own accord to hangout and help prepare. My opinion is that if weather has the possibility of hampering or delaying responses then standbys should be in effect for two reasons our safety(traveling wise) and the safety of the community that we protect(guaranteeing appropriate response times).

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Bad news is that an explanation was necessary. We are all here to learn and share, not to be second guessed by people with no understanding of local geography, dispatch protocols, or equipment. It's getting a little old to read time and again how certain members disect every IA for precise times and raise questions that insinuate that things were not done correctly.

Let's face it, this is EMTBRAVO... it will always be like this... I just hope when the shoe is on the other foot and questions are asked, they will not be deleted, and others are not bashed for asking questions... Like it or not, we are all in GLASSHOUSES, and one day we may be in the hot seat...

[fireguy43 35]

Let's face it, this is EMTBRAVO... it will always be like this... I just hope when the shoe is on the other foot and questions are asked, they will not be deleted, and others are not bashed for asking questions... Like it or not, we are all in GLASSHOUSES, and one day we may be in the hot seat...

Agreed... it is perfectly okay to ask questions to seek clarity on times, tactics, situations, etc. when done in the spirit of learning something. It is quite another to ask questions in an interrogatory tone that, when you read it, you just know that there is an agenda and an insinuation behind the questioning. We are all here to share and learn, not to raise the possibility that someone did something wrong or didn't get out of the barn fast enough. I'll refer to Post4031's thread of a few weeks ago, where he commented on about the same thing...... there are a few members who get their jollies out of picking on and picking apart whatever anyone else does. Come to think of it, not much different than the local firehouse.......

[JFLYNN 681]

Agreed... it is perfectly okay to ask questions to seek clarity on times, tactics, situations, etc. when done in the spirit of learning something. It is quite another to ask questions in an interrogatory tone that, when you read it, you just know that there is an agenda and an insinuation behind the questioning. We are all here to share and learn, not to raise the possibility that someone did something wrong or didn't get out of the barn fast enough. I'll refer to Post4031's thread of a few weeks ago, where he commented on about the same thing...... there are a few members who get their jollies out of picking on and picking apart whatever anyone else does. Come to think of it, not much different than the local firehouse.......

I'm sorry you feel this way but glad most others do not.

Yes, there is an agenda behind the question. I will again beat the drum here...I, and many others, believe that there is a serious problem in most parts of Westchester County with inadequate Fire and EMS coverage. For the most part, the public has no idea of this problem. I believe the problems can be solved through consolidation and regionalization. However, to solve this problem, we first need to educate both the public and many members of the Fire Service here in Westchester that there is in fact a serious problem. Questioning response times and manpower levels is part of this process. It is not personal, it is business. I do not "get my jollies from this", nor do I feel that I or my own department is perfect. I do realize that there are many (not most) who read this forum who are just chomping at the bit for an opportunity to criticize me personally or my department. Eventually you will have your opportunity I am sure. We all make mistakes and we all have areas in which we can improve.

SO, go for it when your opportunity arises...I won't cry, I promise...

[61MACKBR1 222]

Chief Flynn - As they say "You have hit the nail right on the head" and to some it "Hurts" - REGIONALIZATION and CONSOLIDATION is, indeed, the way Westchester County and other areas, throughout New York State and the Country, need to go, not only as it relatest to saving money, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, improving response times, providing the right set of manpower and equipment to an incident, and to ensure that lives and property are saved. Having a Northern Westchester County Department of Emergency Services Division (Fire and EMS) and a Southern Westchester County Department of Emergency Services Division (Fire and EMS) with the consolidation of these Paid and Volunteer Departments, all pulling their respective resources into one (or in this case 2) SOLID TEAM, is a "no brainer"

NOW THE BIG ISSUE !! - Allot of Egos and "Home Turf" attitudes will need to broken down. It should not be and never be about who is the "Biggest Chief" or the "Best Department", it should all be about saving lives and property, and these political attitudes and egos need to be placed in the trash can where they belong, whether or not you are a Career Department, a Split Department (Paid and Volley), or strictly a Volunteer Department.

I don't believe Chief Flynn's position is one of a personal nature or personal gains. As you all know, he is busy enough handling the management (along with Chief Fitzpatrick, Commissioner Pagano, and Chief Cuculo) of the Yonkers Fire Departmenet. You may not have to agree with everything that is posted on EMTBravo.net and even with some of Chief Flynn's comments and his perceived "so called attitude", related to other topics (I being one, "on occassion") BUT, I know and well as the majority of everyone here on EMTBravo.net, that Chief Flynn's heart is and has truly been in the right place here on EMTBravo.net and he does indeed care about FIRE PROTECTION (not only in Yonkers, but throughout Westchester County).

Believe it or not, but I suspect with the New County Executive Rob Asterino, the concept of REGIONALIZATION of EMS and Fire Protection in Westchester County will eventually become a reality. The way it can work out BEST for EVERYONE, is for everyone, Fire and EMS Exeuctives (like Chief Flynn, Captain Barry Benchis from New Rochelle FD and others), Paid Departments (EMS and Fire), and Voluntter Departments (EMS and Fire) to all get together and recommend to County Exeuctive Asterino exactly how it NEEDS TO BE DONE, rather than having some outside agency or firm telling the county how it should be.

TOGETHER WE CAN SUCCEED! SEPARATED WE ARE DOOMED TO FAIL

I'm sorry you feel this way but glad most others do not.

Yes, there is an agenda behind the question. I will again beat the drum here...I, and many others, believe that there is a serious problem in most parts of Westchester County with inadequate Fire and EMS coverage. For the most part, the public has no idea of this problem. I believe the problems can be solved through consolidation and regionalization. However, to solve this problem, we first need to educate both the public and many members of the Fire Service here in Westchester that there is in fact a serious problem. Questioning response times and manpower levels is part of this process. It is not personal, it is business. I do not "get my jollies from this", nor do I feel that I or my own department is perfect. I do realize that there are many (not most) who read this forum who are just chomping at the bit for an opportunity to criticize me personally or my department. Eventually you will have your opportunity I am sure. We all make mistakes and we all have areas in which we can improve.

SO, go for it when your opportunity arises...I won't cry, I promise...

[TL2L31 8]

I think a good place to start could be dual dept responses or automatic mutual aid. A lot of depts are already using system and it seems to work.

[helicopper 1,050]

I think a good place to start could be dual dept responses or automatic mutual aid. A lot of depts are already using system and it seems to work.

Dual department responses and automatic mutual aid are bandaid fixes for an endemic problem. The reality is there can be many improvements in virtually every area including cost savings and improvements in ISO ratings and thereby further cost savings to our constituents and employers - the public! Like it or not, admit it or not, the public is our employer.

The problem is most people want to turn a blind eye to the problem and maintain the status quo. This is only going to get someone hurt or killed one of these days and the time is ripe for these things to be done on our terms with an inside perspective rather than waiting and waiting and ultimately having change inflicted on you by others. If you haven't been paying attention, the state is virtually bankrupt and is going to raise taxes again and institute all kinds of new taxes and fees in an effort to keep the state afloat. The Governor already proposed mergers and consolidations of state agencies, the County has already started similar discussions so you're being naive if you don't think it will eventually happen to you. There's even grant money available for regionalization/consolidation so you could have help with the process.

We have two choices, take advantage of the opportunity and lead or continue to ignore the problems and wait until the solutions are decided for you. Unfortuately, I see the writing on the wall... it says "200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress".

[fireguy43 35]

I'm sorry you feel this way but glad most others do not.

Yes, there is an agenda behind the question. I will again beat the drum here...I, and many others, believe that there is a serious problem in most parts of Westchester County with inadequate Fire and EMS coverage. For the most part, the public has no idea of this problem. I believe the problems can be solved through consolidation and regionalization. However, to solve this problem, we first need to educate both the public and many members of the Fire Service here in Westchester that there is in fact a serious problem. Questioning response times and manpower levels is part of this process. It is not personal, it is business. I do not "get my jollies from this", nor do I feel that I or my own department is perfect. I do realize that there are many (not most) who read this forum who are just chomping at the bit for an opportunity to criticize me personally or my department. Eventually you will have your opportunity I am sure. We all make mistakes and we all have areas in which we can improve.

SO, go for it when your opportunity arises...I won't cry, I promise...

Chief- A few points. I'm not here to knock you or the Yonkers FD. I didn't even know that that was your affiliation until today. I don't know any active members of YFD, nor do I know anyone affiliated with either Somers or Croton Falls. You have a right to your opinions and beliefs, and a right to express them just like I do. No problem there. You can even have an "agenda" or a point of view that you want to reinforce when the opportunity presents itself, that too is okay with me.

Where we differ is that I would advance my "agenda" or point of view when I have the facts to support my case. What I have seen on a couple of occasions, most recently with the Croton Falls IA, is that you are jumping to conclusions which you believe support your case without a complete set of facts. Any IA, written by anyone on here, is subject to the faults (memory, hearing, ability to type fast enough, etc) of the writer. In the course of a long list of radio transmissions, the writer in this case did not note the specific dispatch of the Somers Ladder. When, further down in the alert, there is a notation that the truck was responding shortly, or whatever the notation, you automatically began looking for the reason why they took so long to get out, and immediately began a line of questions that clearly indicated that you thought that. You obviously are very passionate on this issue, all I'm saying is give it a rest once in a while and don't assume that in every IA, there is a delayed response or inadequate manpower situation based on a snippet of a radio transmission taken out of context.

Perhaps you are right on target with your thoughts on regionalization in Westchester. I don't know, I don't live there, and I don't know all of the details of the issue. Be happy to read anything you have in the way of a position paper or other documentation, if you care to provide me with a notation of some online source that I can go to to read it. As to my opportunity to criticize the YFD, I am not qualified. I'm sure that the members of YFD do a great job. Your promise not to cry when my opportunity arises to criticize your department is lost on me, it'll never happen. Stay safe.....