Why Aren't Pump Panels Enclosed?

[x635 4,066]

I am wondering why enclosing the pump panel into a compartment is not standard? Although I've seen it increasingly on newer apparatus, I'm wondering why I don't see it more.

It protects the pump panel from the elements, especially in the cold weather. It keeps the road grime off the pump levers, pulls, switches, guages, etc.

Here's an example:

[Tanker 10eng 140]

personally I am not a fan of it... being an engine guy I like to see the panel.... yeah, there might be some road dirt and dust, but its not an issue....( well it has never been in Croton ) I would be more worried about the dirt build up inside the pump/panel from inside and from the open bottom.... plus a roll up door is just another thing to break and get in the way...

my 2 cents...

[abaduck 123]

Pumps in the UK are 100% rear mount and 100% enclosed:

They don't seem to have any problems with it.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Our Tanker down at Ball Pond has an enclosed pump panel. Works great, never had a problem with it. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the new Engine got it as well in a few years.

[IzzyEng4 427]

The whole pump panel being enclosed idea started (on this continent) up in the northern US and Canada to prevent the pump from freezing during the bitter cold months of the year. I know of several manufacturers that have been constructing this style of pump panel (as well as enclosed pump operator controls in the cab). These modules were built with a heater around the pump housing and the doors were pretty much just added insulation and also for protection from ice, snow, ect. Other than that, there is no reason for a closed pump panel in my opinion. though it "may look cool" or give that "rescue pumper look" its not practical for general purposes. Also it does not add any other sort of protection to the pump or that area if the vehicles is involved in a side impact crash.

Another thing is the added cost of more metal for the housing, the care and maintenance of the door, standard wear and tear of the doors (Same thing why I am against personally for the PUC, MVP and rear mount pumps. Its not worth the added aggravation in my opinion unless you are worried about your pump freezing as soon as you pull out of the barn.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Engine 58 Port Chester will be the first inclosed pump panel for our dept, and Izzy you Can't come see it or ride on it !!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm not sure what the real reason they are starting to become enclosed other then appearance as it makes the apparatus look sleeker. Most of my experiences with T handle problems on apparatus had nothing to do with the lever right at the pump panel as its nothing more then the handle pinned to the rod that actuates the valve, where they gum up or get stiff over time. I also can't see how having the panel enclosed would help with any freezing issues unless its heated as mentioned. Again the pump, the plumbing and drains all come off the center..not at the panel. Lets not forget also that top mounted panels can still be utilized and other then having it part of the cab have never seen one enclosed in another fashion.

Enclosed or not...I'll get proficient with whatever I have in front of me. But I have to say..as Izzy pointed out, the few enclosed panels I've operated I found to be very compact and a bit of a pain in the a** in certain applications.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Engine 58 Port Chester will be the first inclosed pump panel for our dept, and Izzy you Can't come see it or ride on it !!

Sorry I forgot to make an exception for PCFD's new engine!! That will be the best!!!

(Not enough sucking up?????? LOL)

(Just joking around folks!)

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Oh sure. First thing they do is enclose the cabs, in spite of the valiant efforts of many a department taking a partner saw to cut them dang roofs off.

Then what do they do? Enclose the jump seats, then ban the riding of back steps. Safety; the number one reason for killing firefighting traditions! The nerve of them.

But now we have to look at this.......Euro-zone ("let's keep spritzing the fire with a booster line Hanz, until it eventually quiets down!") looking.....pump panel.

What's next those silly looking Euro helmets that ENCLOSE your head? What happens to all the fire photographers who won't be able to get those great "froze-stache" shots?

I can see the day; chief says "get the stick up!" and the reply from the Chauffer comes "as soon as we unrap the protective milar covering chief!"

C'mon, get some ice and salt on that Waterous/Hale whoeva.........

PS: Kiddin' aside, best of luck PCFD with the new rig

Edited January 19, 2010 by efdcapt115

[Patch6713 18]

We have one mini-pumper with an enclosed pump panel. The main problem we have had is that we wanted to put a ball valve on the five inch intake on the drivers side (the only one on that side). We couldn't do this however because the door was in the way. And since there is compartment space on top of the pump, leaving it open was not an option.

[64FFMJK 21]

concidering I was born in the hospital across the street from the engine in that photo's station I can tell you that they do have sever frezing issues. The Chicagoland area is subject to weeks of subzero temps every year and with there call volume there are times that that engine does not make it back to quarters for almost the entire shift. It also halps since they don't use salt in that part of the country do to rivers and lakes they use treated sand and would you want sand constantly being blown onto damp pump contrlols.

The one quote that I will not forget in a long tile was at my Grandmothers funeral in December 2000 in Downers Grove. - 10 degrees F with sustained 30 mph winds. "Crap its cold, how do people live here." said by my wife as she blew across a parking lot standing on the ice.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Oh sure. First thing they do is enclose the cabs, in spite of the valiant efforts of many a department taking a partner saw to cut them dang roofs off.

Then what do they do? Enclose the jump seats, then ban the riding of back steps. Safety; the number one reason for killing firefighting traditions! The nerve of them.

But now we have to look at this.......Euro-zone ("let's keep spritzing the fire with a boostle line Hanz, until it eventually quiets down!") looking.....pump panel.

What's next those silly looking Euro helmets that ENCLOSE your head? What happens to all the fire photographers who won't be able to get those great "froze-stache" shots?

I can see the day; chief says "get the stick up!" and the reply from the Chauffer comes "as soon as we unrap the protective milar covering chief!"

C'mon, get some ice and salt on that Waterous/Hale whoeva.........

PS: Kiddin' aside, best of luck PCFD with the new rig

You forgot got rid of the hand pumpers and went to steam and also got id of the horses and switched to a motor engine first!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

concidering I was born in the hospital across the street from the engine in that photo's station I can tell you that they do have sever frezing issues. The Chicagoland area is subject to weeks of subzero temps every year and with there call volume there are times that that engine does not make it back to quarters for almost the entire shift. It also halps since they don't use salt in that part of the country do to rivers and lakes they use treated sand and would you want sand constantly being blown onto damp pump contrlols.

The one quote that I will not forget in a long tile was at my Grandmothers funeral in December 2000 in Downers Grove. - 10 degrees F with sustained 30 mph winds. "Crap its cold, how do people live here." said by my wife as she blew across a parking lot standing on the ice.

Yes, but when the pump is hooked up to supply and handlines isn't the compartment open? What shelter from the elements does the door provide when the pump is in operation?

[Tanker 10eng 140]

to prevent the pump from freezing during the bitter cold months of the year. I know of several manufacturers that have been constructing this style of pump panel

Ok, I can buy this reason, what else is done to keep the pump warm ??? is there a floor under the pump ? Yes, I know heat rises, but when the rig is moving around ( to the calls, fueling up, or what ever ) there is allot of wind chill under there...

were built with a heater around the pump housing and the doors

is this a heater system apart of the engine's cooling system, electri our taken off the exhaust ?

I am NOT trying to battle with you, just looking for more information on this...

[ny10570 745]

The doors make the truck prettier. The linkages and valves are all ready protected behind the panel. Door or no door, you're still going to instal an electric heater or auxiliary radiator loop around the pump because just closing it up in a door is not enough to keep it warm. Without a heat source it will still be as cold as the outside environment.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Ok, I can buy this reason, what else is done to keep the pump warm ??? is there a floor under the pump ? Yes, I know heat rises, but when the rig is moving around ( to the calls, fueling up, or what ever ) there is allot of wind chill under there...

Excellent question on the floor part.

One thing I want to point out....WIND CHILL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER FREEZING...only ambient temperature does. Wind chill is an index that calculates what the temperature feels like with moving air on human skin. What the wind will do on equipment is assist to bring it down to ambient temperature quicker.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Couldn't you just circulate the pump to prevent it from freezing?

[IzzyEng4 427]

I'll do my best to answer some of the questions as I'm not authoritarian on the topic and only going by what I have been told. The information and what I have seen was from Smeal when I was out at their plant doing inspections on the truck my fire company has in service now.

When I was there, one of the vehicles going to Canada where most of the winter it's below freezing (I don't remember what town the pumper was going to) had an enclosed pump compartment completed with a separate heating system in the enclosure along with the doors. It was not off of the exhaust system, ect. as this was a custom spec for that particular department. The enclosure was also insulated on the inside and also below the frame rails (it was an interesting construction to say the least). As far as the pump compartment doors, the whole idea is basically to prevent snow, ice sand, dirt, ect. from building up on the pump panel area while responding to an alarm. Also since the pump area is heated and basically closed up, it will retain some (not a lot) heat on the panel and the plumbing, thus preventing the possibility of the plumbing and caps freezing.

Tanker10Eng, a heater is not part of the engine's cooling system. A cooling system is for what it literally states, to cool the pump while in operation and also to prevent the engine from overheating. This heater is solely for the purpose of keeping the pump warm and prevent it from freezing. Now with that said, I don't know if these departments keep their pumpers "wet" or they are "dry". Either way, there is a fear of the pump and plumbing from freezing. As for if there are systems taken off the exhaust system of the truck, I am not sure if there is a system made like that, usually heaters are a separate unit so they can be turned on and off.

Sage, yes circulating the pump / keeping water moving does help prevent freezing but these systems are not just for while pumping. These systems are made primarily to keep pumps from freezing to and from the firehouse and have them in an opeational state. Nothing is worse than responding to an alarm and finding out your pump froze along the way to the alarm during the XXX miles and time traveled then you can't move water to put out a fire.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

a heater is not part of the engine's cooling system. A cooling system is for what it literally states, to cool the pump while in operation and also to prevent the engine from overheating. This heater is solely for the purpose of keeping the pump warm and prevent it from freezing

Izzy, thanks for the information... good points about also keeping drifting snow/ice build up from the underside, never thought of that !! What I was referring to, was what is the source of the " heat " ?? Do they take the antifreeze from the vehicle's engine and run it through a coil to heat this area ? or is it electrical heat ? or do they run a seperate motor to create heat ? I did not mean the pump's cooling system.... my bad, I should of been clearer...

[IzzyEng4 427]

Izzy, thanks for the information... good points about also keeping drifting snow/ice build up from the underside, never thought of that !! What I was referring to, was what is the source of the " heat " ?? Do they take the antifreeze from the vehicle's engine and run it through a coil to heat this area ? or is it electrical heat ? or do they run a seperate motor to create heat ? I did not mean the pump's cooling system.... my bad, I should of been clearer...

No problem Tank, I figured that is where you were going with your question. I would assume that there are a bunch of different types of systems out there that can be used. I would assume also that these systems would be totally separate and independent from the engine, but I could be wrong.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Our newest pumper has an enclosed side mount panel. It is also a rearmount pump and the pump enclosure does have a floor in it. This obviously cuts down on the amount of dirt and grit that coats the actuation controls (yes their all manual valves). It also features a 40,000 btu auxiliary heater in the pump enclosure. The operators have been praising it this winter as it is very warm in the pump compartment so they're fairly happy standing there when it's cold.

All of our previous pumpers and two current top mounts have had removable "trays" under the pump for winter operations. This allowed a little more that retention in the pump enclosure and cut down on the dirt, slush and salt that got into the actuation mechanicals of the pump. In the spring these trays are removed too allow the pump to cool.

ALS: Don't you love the wind chill factor? We seem to need to re-educate people a few times every winter that the windchill is not making their car start harder. It's great when you tell someone that the windchill only effects living creatures and they give you the "dog hearing a high pitched whistle" look! Joking aside, the wind has some limited effect on objects as it carries away the warmer air faster allowing the object to reach the ambient air temp quicker, but the object will never go below the actual temperature no matter how hard the wind blows.

Edited January 20, 2010 by antiquefirelt

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Our newest pumper has an enclosed side mount panel. It is also a rearmount pump and the pump enclosure does have a floor in it. This obviously cuts down on the amount of dirt and grit that coats the actuation controls (yes their all manual valves). It also features a 40,000 btu auxiliary heater in the pump enclosure. The operators have been praising it this winter as it is very warm in the pump compartment so they're fairly happy standing there when it's cold.

All of our previous pumpers and two current top mounts have had removable "trays" under the pump for winter operations. This allowed a little more that retention in the pump enclosure and cut down on the dirt, slush and salt that got into the actuation mechanicals of the pump. In the spring these trays are removed too allow the pump to cool.

ALS: Don't you love the wind chill factor? We seem to need to re-educate people a few times every winter that the windchill is not making their car start harder. It's great when you tell someone that the windchill only effects living creatures and they give you the "dog hearing a high pitched whistle" look! Joking aside, the wind has some limited effect on objects as it carries away the warmer air faster allowing the object to reach the ambient air temp quicker, but the object will never go below the actual temperature no matter how hard the wind blows.

That answered the questions I was thinking about. Thanks Chief.

PS: Had any good lobsta lately.....

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Excellent question on the floor part.

WIND CHILL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER FREEZING....

Ok, ALS.... so now I know what I missed when I feel asleep during that day in Earth Science... Thank you for the infor...

[antiquefirelt 994]

That answered the questions I was thinking about. Thanks Chief.

PS: Had any good lobsta lately.....

With all the damn snow this past week has me hankering for a grilled spiny lobster down in the Caribbean! Don't tell anyone up this way though, the local lobstermen are hurting this year.

[fyrlt17 13]

Not only is the pump module heated, all the compartments are heated also.

Note the Tow hook front bumper

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Your quite welcome Ger...anytime I can pass some info to and old crusty jake I grew up in the fire service around I take pride in.

Antique...even better...the look when you bring it up in a meeting after a policy is set that the apparatus cannot leave quarters "anytime the temperature or wind chill is below freezing." I got deer in headlights look and even a couple of my own guys trying to spin it..even after I still showed them a print out of the info from NOAA.

So when I asked if we could change the policy to be correct as there are times as you know it could be upper 30's or lower 40's with stiff wind that brings the wind chill below freezing...one of my guys says "yeah but with the brass fittings and stuff its still a good idea."

[antiquefirelt 994]

Your quite welcome Ger...anytime I can pass some info to and old crusty jake I grew up in the fire service around I take pride in.

Antique...even better...the look when you bring it up in a meeting after a policy is set that the apparatus cannot leave quarters "anytime the temperature or wind chill is below freezing." I got deer in headlights look and even a couple of my own guys trying to spin it..even after I still showed them a print out of the info from NOAA.

So when I asked if we could change the policy to be correct as there are times as you know it could be upper 30's or lower 40's with stiff wind that brings the wind chill below freezing...one of my guys says "yeah but with the brass fittings and stuff its still a good idea."

That's great on the policy! Funny change the names and places, but the similarities run deep almost everywhere you go. Was the policy designed to protect the apparatus or the guys not wanting to go out when it's cold? Our rules say truck checks are abbreviated (less run time while on exhaust system) and done inside when the outside temp is under 25F. But the reason was to keep the heat in the station.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Not only is the pump module heated, all the compartments are heated also.

Note the Tow hook front bumper

Thanks for posting this rig because its the 'younger brother" of the one I saw a few year back in Nebraska at Smeal. This was the rig I was remembering.