River Emergencies - What have we done?

[helicopper 1,050]

It hsa been exactly one year since the "miracle on the Hudson" and Flight 1549's emergency landing in the river. At the time we discussed what would have happened if the plane had banked right instead of left and wound up off of Westchester County instead of New York County. My question is this... what have we done to improve our capabilities for a river emergency and are we ready for one?

Just yesterday we couldn't get any boats out for a single jumper down from the TZB and I wonder what we'd do if we were confonted with a larger scale emergency.

A few weeks ago the first boats to reach a "vessel in distress" in Westchester County were the FDNY and NYPD and that was even before ice had a chance to form.

What have we done? What are we doing?

[RWC130 594]

Do you know if Rockland County was able to get any boats in the water

for the Vessel in Distress or Jumper?

No Westchester County Fire or Police agencies got out?

NOT GOOD!

River Emergencies is an issue,

more so in the cold winter months.

[abaduck 123]

Just a thought... are we spreading ourselves too thin? Is this kind of water rescue too specialised for us, and too far outside our - or what should be our - core competence: fire prevention and suppression?

Perhaps a lesson from the UK is in order: in the UK, water rescue in large bodies of water is generally performed by the RNLI - the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, a charity. They operate several hundred lifeboats around the shores and on the inland waterways in the UK, staffed 100% by volunteers I might add.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_National_Lifeboat_Institution

They are tasked and co-ordinated by Her Majesty's Coastguard, an agency of the UK government, which has ultimate responsibility for SAR activity, and operates SAR helicopters. Involvement by UK fire & rescue services in water rescue is relatively minimal.

Rivers and seas are large and flow naturally from town to town, county to county, state to state. If there was ever an obvious case for consolidation on a very large scale, this is it. IMHO.

I speak for myself, not my department.

[v85 212]

Just a thought... are we spreading ourselves too thin? Is this kind of water rescue too specialised for us, and too far outside our - or what should be our - core competence: fire prevention and suppression?

Perhaps a lesson from the UK is in order: in the UK, water rescue in large bodies of water is generally performed by the RNLI - the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, a charity. They operate several hundred lifeboats around the shores and on the inland waterways in the UK, staffed 100% by volunteers I might add.

http://en.wikipedia....oat_Institution

They are tasked and co-ordinated by Her Majesty's Coastguard, an agency of the UK government, which has ultimate responsibility for SAR activity, and operates SAR helicopters. Involvement by UK fire & rescue services in water rescue is relatively minimal.

Rivers and seas are large and flow naturally from town to town, county to county, state to state. If there was ever an obvious case for consolidation on a very large scale, this is it. IMHO.

I speak for myself, not my department.

Don't we already have something like that in the US Coast Guard and Coast Guard Auxiliary? Although from what I'm hearing the USCG is spread thin and the Auxiliary is much like the NYPD Auxiliary (visible presence, observe and report type stuff) and doesn't/are not authorized to go really "hands on".

[jack10562 414]

It seems many areas have little more than "blue sky" river rescue response. That is, a fair weather, seasonal-only capability.

Throw in rough weather conditions and ice into the mix, and you get the picture. This is not a knock on those providers, they simply don't have the proper equipment.

We have dozens of tower-ladders and double that number for engines, sitting warm and snug in their respective houses, and we have very few boats, if any, that can do a year-round river rescue. That has to change.

From what I can tell, little or nothing has improved since Sully safely put his plane in the river.

[helicopper 1,050]

Do you know if Rockland County was able to get any boats in the water

for the Vessel in Distress or Jumper?

No Westchester County Fire or Police agencies got out?

NOT GOOD!

River Emergencies is an issue,

more so in the cold winter months.

I believe that Rockland County personnel boarded the Thruway Authority tug boat and were able to deploy from that. To my knowledge, no fire/police boats were on the water, either due to ice or the fact they've already been winterized.

Don't we already have something like that in the US Coast Guard and Coast Guard Auxiliary? Although from what I'm hearing the USCG is spread thin and the Auxiliary is much like the NYPD Auxiliary (visible presence, observe and report type stuff) and doesn't/are not authorized to go really "hands on".

The US Coast Guard is very thin and I don't believe that their auxiliary has any rescue capabilities. On the air side, they've got nothing between Atlantic City and Cape Cod. I don't know how many boats they've got but response times at this time of year will definitely be an issue.

Westchester and Rockland Counties are two of the most affulent in the nation. You'd think we could put a plan and enough resources together for the river no matter what the weather.

[NJMedic 96]

The US Coast Guard is very thin and I don't believe that their auxiliary has any rescue capabilities. On the air side, they've got nothing between Atlantic City and Cape Cod. I don't know how many boats they've got but response times at this time of year will definitely be an issue.

I seem to remember that the USCG and NYPD work under sometime of protocol that allows the NYPD to handle most of the air-sea-rescue work in the NYC area as first due, primarily due to the exented ETA of a USCG assest. In the summer I believe the CG stations a helicopter at Gabreski Field on Long Island, also the home of the 106th Rescue Wing of the NY ANG

[dragonrescue 28]

All departments on the river need to get together and address their deficiencies for a river emergency. One thought would be to combine some of the money in their training and equipment budgets for joint training and equipment purchases, to handle this type of emergency. NYC has enough on their plate and may not be available to respond when you need them....

[mike2931 13]

I'm in Irvington's Fire Dept. our boat is not winterized and is out of the water for only a couple of months, but we can launch if need be, both marine 4 and marine 44 our zodiack. This season has been difficult due to the heavy ice build up on the shores which doesn't happen in the city much, and if it does happen in the city NYPD and USCG have the capabilities to break up the ice with larger boats. Our department has exceptionally trained divers that can dive in any season and multiple people that are trained in the stearns suits for surface ice rescue. Years back the plane that went down off the shore in yonkers every department in lower westchester that had divers/boats did respond with FDNY, NYPD and YFD.

If something did happen in Westchester like Miracle on the Hudson, I myself believe that every department will get their boats out and we will also need the help from NYPD/FDNY/YFD definitely multiple agencies. Also there have been multiple incidents where NYPD harbor, and air-sea rescue have responded to jumpers off the TZB to assist with searches with Irvington, Tarrytown, DFPD, Westchester PD, Peirmont, Nyack, Rockalnd County Sheriffs etc.

[v85 212]

Orange County Sheriff's Marine 80 I also believe can be launched in an emergency at any time of year. Although I can't imagine the ETA would be too favorable.

[helicopper 1,050]

I seem to remember that the USCG and NYPD work under sometime of protocol that allows the NYPD to handle most of the air-sea-rescue work in the NYC area as first due, primarily due to the exented ETA of a USCG assest. In the summer I believe the CG stations a helicopter at Gabreski Field on Long Island, also the home of the 106th Rescue Wing of the NY ANG

I believe that when the Coast Guard left Floyd Bennett Field, the NYPD took over air-sea rescue in the NYC area to fill the void. I don't know if that was by design or by default but you're right, NYPD will perform air-sea rescue missions outside the city limits on a case by case basis. Maybe someone else on here knows the full history.

All departments on the river need to get together and address their deficiencies for a river emergency. One thought would be to combine some of the money in their training and equipment budgets for joint training and equipment purchases, to handle this type of emergency. NYC has enough on their plate and may not be available to respond when you need them....

From your mouth to the responsible parties ears! NYC will almost always help but it's not their primary job to do ours for us.

I'm in Irvington's Fire Dept. our boat is not winterized and is out of the water for only a couple of months, but we can launch if need be, both marine 4 and marine 44 our zodiack. This season has been difficult due to the heavy ice build up on the shores which doesn't happen in the city much, and if it does happen in the city NYPD and USCG have the capabilities to break up the ice with larger boats. Our department has exceptionally trained divers that can dive in any season and multiple people that are trained in the stearns suits for surface ice rescue. Years back the plane that went down off the shore in yonkers every department in lower westchester that had divers/boats did respond with FDNY, NYPD and YFD.

If something did happen in Westchester like Miracle on the Hudson, I myself believe that every department will get their boats out and we will also need the help from NYPD/FDNY/YFD definitely multiple agencies. Also there have been multiple incidents where NYPD harbor, and air-sea rescue have responded to jumpers off the TZB to assist with searches with Irvington, Tarrytown, DFPD, Westchester PD, Peirmont, Nyack, Rockalnd County Sheriffs etc.

How can you say that every department will get their boats out for an emergency on the river when most of the boats are winterized and out of the water? How long will it take to refuel, flush lines, remove shrink-wrap, etc.? I agree that everyone would want to get their boats out but if it's not possible today for the jumper, what suddenly makes it possible for the plane crash tomorrow?

As stated above, NYPD will respond to assist but it's not their responsibility to take care of our jumpers down (they have enough of their own). Air-sea rescue is just that, for rescue, so once it becomes a recovery we still need someone to get a boat in the water.

Bottom line, we're not ready and we really should be.

[JFLYNN 681]

I believe that when the Coast Guard left Floyd Bennett Field, the NYPD took over air-sea rescue in the NYC area to fill the void. I don't know if that was by design or by default but you're right, NYPD will perform air-sea rescue missions outside the city limits on a case by case basis. Maybe someone else on here knows the full history.

From your mouth to the responsible parties ears! NYC will almost always help but it's not their primary job to do ours for us.

How can you say that every department will get their boats out for an emergency on the river when most of the boats are winterized and out of the water? How long will it take to refuel, flush lines, remove shrink-wrap, etc.? I agree that everyone would want to get their boats out but if it's not possible today for the jumper, what suddenly makes it possible for the plane crash tomorrow?

As stated above, NYPD will respond to assist but it's not their responsibility to take care of our jumpers down (they have enough of their own). Air-sea rescue is just that, for rescue, so once it becomes a recovery we still need someone to get a boat in the water.

Bottom line, we're not ready and we really should be.

Chris, you make some excellent points here. I have nothing to do with water ops in Yonkers but from where I sit we are as guilty as anyone...everyone has to have their own boat and be in charge...if all of the police-fire agencies on both sides of the river got together and combined resources it seems to me that we could provide 24/7, 365 coverage with good response times, and trained personnel for less $ than everyone is spending now, and we wouldn't even have to pull over every poor slob with a jet ski to justify our existence...I was working the day the cessna went down off the Yonkers shore in November or whenever that was and it really sucked watching those two guys doing the backstroke in the middle of the river through binoculars until NYPD and the Coast Guard showed up and saved the day.

In my mind, this is definiely an area ripe for consolidation and regionalization, including Police and Fire, and perhaps even career and volunteer, as long as all the parties could agree to live up to the same training, medical, and physical fitness standards.

[JJB531 652]

In addition to saving money, I think the other positive part of regionalization and/or consolidation between Fire, Police, and EMS when it comes certain services, such as Water Rescue, Rope Rescue, etc. is that you have a wider pool of talent to choose from. When it comes to some of these specialized services, I don't necessarily think it's the line of work you're in that makes you a good technician, but I think individuals from each of these services may have something to bring to the table. An individuals experiences,past employment, and even hobbies can all influence their competence in some of the different aspects of rescue work. Someone who is a avid rock climber may be a good candidate for rope rescue work. Someome who is an avid Scuba Diver and/or swimmer might fare well on a water rescue team. When you have a FD doing their own thing, a PD doing their own thing, and well, EMS never really does anything specialized around here, you're limiting yourself to the members of your department.

IMHO I believe that it would be beneficial that we start working together some more and break the barriers of PD, FD, and EMS.

[IMAFF 2]

How can you say that every department will get their boats out for an emergency on the river when most of the boats are winterized and out of the water? How long will it take to refuel, flush lines, remove shrink-wrap, etc.? I agree that everyone would want to get their boats out but if it's not possible today for the jumper, what suddenly makes it possible for the plane crash tomorrow?

As stated above, NYPD will respond to assist but it's not their responsibility to take care of our jumpers down (they have enough of their own). Air-sea rescue is just that, for rescue, so once it becomes a recovery we still need someone to get a boat in the water.

Bottom line, we're not ready and we really should be.

Irvington's boat is not winterized, it is on it's trailer and in service.The reason they did not respond was to much ice at the launch site. The biggest difference in the two scenarios come down to risk/bennefit. A plane loaded with pasengers is worth more of a risk than a lone jumper who has been in the water (about 40degrees) for twenty minutes or more. I for one would not be comfortable risking the lives of several well qualified people and equipment in those conditions to recover the body of someone who decided that there life wasn't worth much in the first place.

[JJB531 652]

Irvington's boat is not winterized, it is on it's trailer and in service.The reason they did not respond was to much ice at the launch site. The biggest difference in the two scenarios come down to risk/bennefit. A plane loaded with pasengers is worth more of a risk than a lone jumper who has been in the water (about 40degrees) for twenty minutes or more. I for one would not be comfortable risking the lives of several well qualified people and equipment in those conditions to recover the body of someone who decided that there life wasn't worth much in the first place.

I have a few questions...

How is a single boat with a couple of firefighters on it going to handle a large scale river emergency such as a larger commuter plane down in the water? You talk about risk/benefit, what are the risks involved with sending out an inadequate amount of personnel to handle a large scale incident? If the Irvington boat couldn't get out for a lone jumper because of ice at the launch site, how would that same boat get out if it was a larger scale incident?

Since when is it our job to place a value on a persons life who decided to jump from the Tappan Zee Bridge? How is a plane loaded with passengers worth more of a risk over a jumper? If you're not comfortable risking the lives of people and equipment because someone suffering some form of emotional distress decided to jump into the Hudson, perhaps you need to re-think why you are involved in emergency services.

Individuals have been pulled from ice-cold water an hour after submersion and have had positive outcomes with a full and complete recovery. Hypothermia can be our friend.

[IMAFF 2]

"How is a single boat with a couple of firefighters on it going to handle a large scale river emergency such as a larger commuter plane down in the water? You talk about risk/benefit, what are the risks involved with sending out an inadequate amount of personnel to handle a large scale incident? If the Irvington boat couldn't get out for a lone jumper because of ice at the launch site, how would that same boat get out if it was a larger scale incident?"

I'm not saying that one boat with a few divers is going to save an entire plane load of people. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe some of the first responders to "The Miracle on the Hudson" were infact NY waterway ferry boats no? The run up and down the river all the time, why not utilize them until better tarined and equiped reinforcements arrive. As for not getting the boat out because of ice, I would not want to risk hull, engine, prop damage that may take my boat out of service for quite a while to recover a suicide victim (see below for the facts), I would risk those same problems for a plane load of people. I would like to think that all departments who were called would have made a stronger effort to respond if this was in fact a plane crash.

"Since when is it our job to place a value on a persons life who decided to jump from the Tappan Zee Bridge? How is a plane loaded with passengers worth more of a risk over a jumper? If you're not comfortable risking the lives of people and equipment because someone suffering some form of emotional distress decided to jump into the Hudson, perhaps you need to re-think why you are involved in emergency services."

In this situation most jumpers do not survive a 160+ foot fall into 40 degree water. I'm not saying a person with emotional problems is not worth saving. The fact is this was a recovery not a rescue. How would you tell the family of a brother or sister that you cost somebody there life to recover a deceased person? A plane loaded with people is much different, there might be some survivors and therefore worth taking more of a risk. Irvington's water rescue team has been in service since the early 80's and have responded to hundreds of jumpers. In this case I belive the right call was made in regards to risk/benefit.

"Individuals have been pulled from ice-cold water an hour after submersion and have had positive outcomes with a full and complete recovery. Hypothermia can be our friend."

There is a big difference between drowning in cold water and jumping from 160+ feet and hitting the ice breaker on the north side of the bridge.

[helicopper 1,050]

How is a single boat with a couple of firefighters on it going to handle a large scale river emergency such as a larger commuter plane down in the water? You talk about risk/benefit, what are the risks involved with sending out an inadequate amount of personnel to handle a large scale incident? If "any FD" boat couldn't get out for a lone jumper because of ice at the launch site, how would that same boat get out if it was a larger scale incident?

This is exactly my point. We've had a year to develop a plan, exercise it, plan some more, and call ourselves ready for a larger scale incident on the river. Instead, we sit here a year later and are at the same level of preparedness that we have been all along.

I'm not saying that one boat with a few divers is going to save an entire plane load of people. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe some of the first responders to "The Miracle on the Hudson" were infact NY waterway ferry boats no? The run up and down the river all the time, why not utilize them until better tarined and equiped reinforcements arrive. As for not getting the boat out because of ice, I would not want to risk hull, engine, prop damage that may take my boat out of service for quite a while to recover a suicide victim (see below for the facts), I would risk those same problems for a plane load of people. I would like to think that all departments who were called would have made a stronger effort to respond if this was in fact a plane crash.

The ferries were within sight of their respective piers for the US Airways incident. They don't run up and down the Hudson all that much anymore. In fact the Ossining-Haverstraw ferry may not be operating much longer due to $$$. They'd respond to an incident near the TZ for sure but they wouldn't get there for a long time.

I'd also like to point out that a few improperly equipped boats becoming disabled during a "rescue" would only exacerbate the problem. Imagine having a boat or two taking on water because of hull damage? What would that do to the response?

This is something that we should all be discussing formally and officially - not just here on Bravo.

[JJB531 652]

With a confirmed jumper where emergency services are immediately contacted, at what point do we determine it is a recovery and not a rescue? People have jumped from the Tappan Zee Bridge and survived. Are the chances slim, yes. You say that you would risk the equipment and personnel for a plane crash but not a jumper because who survives a 160 foot plunge into frigid water... but how many people survive when a commercial plane crashes? It was dubbed the "Miracle on the Hudson" because it was a miracle that there were survivors... fortunately everyone survived that day. But are your chances of surviving a plane crash slim, yes they are.

Yes, some of the first responders to the "Miracle on the Hudson" were in fact the NY Waterways Ferrys... but you can't compare the boat traffic in the NYC stretch of the Hudson River to the boat traffic as you continue north on the Hudson River. You mentioned utilizing these Ferry's until better trained and equipped personnel arrive, but once again we're talking about using another outside resource to do the work for us until we get up to speed.

Hundreds of jumpers? There have been hundreds of jumpers off the Tappan Zee Bridge since the 1980's? According to the New York State Thruway Authority 25 people have committed suicide on the Bridge from 1998 to 2008, the Journal News reports it at 40 people. So either hundreds of people have jumped and the overwhelming majority survived, which would dispel the statement that no one survives the jump, or your claim of hundreds of jumpers is a little far-fetched.

[dragonrescue 28]

This is exactly my point. We've had a year to develop a plan, exercise it, plan some more, and call ourselves ready for a larger scale incident on the river. Instead, we sit here a year later and are at the same level of preparedness that we have been all along.

The ferries were within sight of their respective piers for the US Airways incident. They don't run up and down the Hudson all that much anymore. In fact the Ossining-Haverstraw ferry may not be operating much longer due to $$$. They'd respond to an incident near the TZ for sure but they wouldn't get there for a long time.

I'd also like to point out that a few improperly equipped boats becoming disabled during a "rescue" would only exacerbate the problem. Imagine having a boat or two taking on water because of hull damage? What would that do to the response?

This is something that we should all be discussing formally and officially - not just here on Bravo.

You're right Chris. A meeting needs to be set-up.......YESTERDAY!

[IMAFF 2]

With a confirmed jumper where emergency services are immediately contacted, at what point do we determine it is a recovery and not a rescue? People have jumped from the Tappan Zee Bridge and survived. Are the chances slim, yes. You say that you would risk the equipment and personnel for a plane crash but not a jumper because who survives a 160 foot plunge into frigid water... but how many people survive when a commercial plane crashes? It was dubbed the "Miracle on the Hudson" because it was a miracle that there were survivors... fortunately everyone survived that day. But are your chances of surviving a plane crash slim, yes they are.

Immediately contacted? Do you call State police, Rockland, Westchester, Tarrytown, Nyack, Irvington, Piermont, Sleepy Hollow, Ossining. Many calls are redirected from state to control to local departments and not always immedatley. Yes people have survived but most who go from the super structure do not. Some have jumped from the much lower rockland side also. Resources from Rockland were able to board the thruway tug and effect a recovery, which in my oppinion was the right call.

Yes, some of the first responders to the "Miracle on the Hudson" were in fact the NY Waterways Ferrys... but you can't compare the boat traffic in the NYC stretch of the Hudson River to the boat traffic as you continue north on the Hudson River. You mentioned utilizing these Ferry's until better trained and equipped personnel arrive, but once again we're talking about using another outside resource to do the work for us until we get up to speed.

I can't disagree with you on the need to get up to speed. One big problem on the water is defining one's paritcular respone area. Usualy the first department to sign on is the lead agency. As for the ferries they run from Ossining to Manhattan daily. Until money is spent and a better plan is in place I would try to use what ever I had at my disposal.

Hundreds of jumpers? There have been hundreds of jumpers off the Tappan Zee Bridge since the 1980's? According to the New York State Thruway Authority 25 people have committed suicide on the Bridge from 1998 to 2008, the Journal News reports it at 40 people. So either hundreds of people have jumped and the overwhelming majority survived, which would dispel the statement that no one survives the jump, or your claim of hundreds of jumpers is a little far-fetched.

I don't have exact numbers but 25 a decade x almost 30 years of service is pretty close, and that does not include plenty of false jumper claims.

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

What have we done? What are we doing?

The short and realistic answer to your question is NOTHING! If something of this magnitude were to happen in Westchester the chiefs of both FD and PD would bank on the fact that the FDNY and NYPD will arise to the occasion and save the day yet again.

Until that "hear no evil, see no evil", "nothing is broken" mentality is fixed, NOTHING is going to happen other than a call out for mutual aid to the brothers down south.

And that's the way it is.

[ex-commish 490]

I have no knowledge of water ops and perhaps not qualified to comment here but what about a Coast Guard station in the vicinity of the bridge? The Hudson is used as a flight path. There is heavy boating traffic. There are more accidents in the river than there are jumpers. We are in close proximity of NYC so why can't it be done? If not the Coast Guard why not County Police from both Westchester and Rockland? We can't keep saying YFD, FDNY or NYPD will be there. They are quite busy as it is and are responsible for thier own cities. We need a dedicated unit for the river. Maybe between Westchester and Rockland a combined effort of the TRT's?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The short and realistic answer to your question is NOTHING!

In my humble opinion, you should have quit right there, because now your post raises a host of questions.

If something of this magnitude were to happen in Westchester the chiefs of both FD and PD would bank on....

And you know this because of how? Have you spoken with FD & PD chiefs throughout Westchester, in this case along the Hudson River in the Hudson Valley? Are you aware of any Westchester depts. who might utilize the Water Taxis that work the Hudson, as they seem to be able to respond rather quickly?

...the fact that the FDNY and NYPD will arise to the occasion and save the day yet again.

So, it's a foregone conclusion that:

#1 FDNY & NYPD "will arise to the occasion" as you put it

#2 "and save the day yet again."

1.Are you saying FDNY/NYPD WILL RESPOND to a Westchester water emergency? Do you know this for fact? Last I checked FDNY has only minimal mutual-aid agreements in place with certain cities in Westchester, although I am aware that recently the brothers were training together for a Westchester mutual-aid response INTO NYC, so this might have been updated.

Can you site the mutual-aid agreement you are refering too?

2.IMHO: It is NEVER a foregone conclusion that ANYONE will "save the day" let alone "yet again." I'm suprised by your bravado. Better start pullin up dem boots "brother"!

Until that "hear no evil, see no evil", "nothing is broken" mentality is fixed

The Westchester Career Chiefs have brought forward a plan of consolidation which could significantly improve the delivery of fire services in southern Westchester. Have you heard of this study, or possibly read it?

NOTHING is going to happen other than a call out for mutual aid to the brothers down south.

Are you dismissing without thought the efforts of all the volunteer fire depts. along the Hudson River? Do you not think they would respond to ANY kind of water emergency to the best of their ability?

And that's the way it is.

[chris 18]

Efdcapt115 - awesome!!!!!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

It hsa been exactly one year since the "miracle on the Hudson" and Flight 1549's emergency landing in the river. At the time we discussed what would have happened if the plane had banked right instead of left and wound up off of Westchester County instead of New York County. My question is this... what have we done to improve our capabilities for a river emergency and are we ready for one?......What have we done? What are we doing?

We have done NOTHING. In fact we have reduced response capabilities. Didn't the county have cutbacks proposed in WCPD's marine unit? And on Long Island Sound New Rochelle PD cut back its marine unit and eliminated its dive unit.

Just a thought... are we spreading ourselves too thin? Is this kind of water rescue too specialised for us, and too far outside our - or what should be our - core competence: fire prevention and suppression?

Interesting point, yes we are too thin, but that is because every dept is trying to do everything. Both NYPD & FDNY are large enough to have dedicated units to do this. What about marine firefighting, is that part of our core?

Don't we already have something like that in the US Coast Guard and Coast Guard Auxiliary?

We did, before the hoisted anchor (and rotor) and scaled back on the hudson, NYC & Long Island Sound (and a 50+ mile radius of the Atlantic ocean around NYC).

[Bnechis 3,961]

It seems many areas have little more than "blue sky" river rescue response. That is, a fair weather, seasonal-only capability. Throw in rough weather conditions and ice into the mix, and you get the picture. This is not a knock on those providers, they simply don't have the proper equipment. We have dozens of tower-ladders and double that number for engines, sitting warm and snug in their respective houses, and we have very few boats, if any, that can do a year-round river rescue. That has to change.

Very well said. How many departments would buy all those rigs without head lights? We do not need to respond to calls at night is no different than we do not need to respond in the winter. You can not expect the 20+ FD's (Plus PD's) to buy the multi million dollar boats that are actually needed. The only way we will ever have the boats needed is to consolidate and do it as a single agency.

I'm in Irvington's Fire Dept. our boat is not winterized and is out of the water for only a couple of months, but we can launch if need be, ..... This season has been difficult due to the heavy ice build up on the shores which doesn't happen in the city much, and if it does happen in the city NYPD and USCG have the capabilities to break up the ice with larger boats.

If a departments fire station was snowed in, do you think they would consider alternatives? The harbors being frozen means we have not done the planning and purchasing that is needed to ensure the safety of our personnel and the public.

If something did happen in Westchester like Miracle on the Hudson, I myself believe that every department will get their boats out and we will also need the help from NYPD/FDNY/YFD definitely multiple agencies.

A big part of the problem is most departments believe this. How many departments believe that their depts can get enough people to a working fire? Most are blind. If our planning is left to "I believe" then we (or those in the water) are doomed.

...everyone has to have their own boat and be in charge...if all of the police-fire agencies on both sides of the river got together and combined resources it seems to me that we could provide 24/7, 365 coverage with good response times, and trained personnel for less $ than everyone is spending now........ In my mind, this is definiely an area ripe for consolidation and regionalization, including Police and Fire, and perhaps even career and volunteer, as long as all the parties could agree to live up to the same training, medical, and physical fitness standards.

Chief well said!!! 14 fire departments in Westchester are on the river and 7 are on Long Island Sound (LIS) plus police departments. How many have boats? How many can do the job 24/7/365? if we had 3 larger boats on the Hudson and 2 on the Sound could they cover it all and for less?

I think we will never find out because of the turf you mentioned.

[JFLYNN 681]

The short and realistic answer to your question is NOTHING! If something of this magnitude were to happen in Westchester the chiefs of both FD and PD would bank on the fact that the FDNY and NYPD will arise to the occasion and save the day yet again.

Until that "hear no evil, see no evil", "nothing is broken" mentality is fixed, NOTHING is going to happen other than a call out for mutual aid to the brothers down south.

And that's the way it is.

Hey Bull,

It is very comforting knowing that you and your brothers are right there ready, willing and able to rise to the occasion and save the day for us...thanks for explaining this complex situation so succinctly...the depth of your understanding of the dynamics of both NYC and Westchester County emergency services is quite evident in your post

[16fire5 693]

Judging by the FDNY/NYPD response time to inwood and the heights for jumpers and people in the water I think that time would be inadequete to the Tappan Zee area. Other posters may be on to something with the regional response. A Westchester River Rescue type agency combining the multiple resources would probably be more effective than every small department on the river trying to have their own boat.

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

Well I didn't mean ruffle any feathers but I just call em like I see them. Historically, any major, water borne emergency in Southern Westchester you have either the NYPD responding with their helicopters and esu guys or you have some FDNY/NYPD marine company going up there as well.

Several incidents that immediately come to mind are the car into the Sprain Brook Reservoir (NYPD divers) the overturned vehicle into the Bronx River (divers, helicopter and NYPD ESU/FDNY units) and the small plane that touched down in the Hudson a few years ago (again NYPD helicopter, diver, NYPD/FDNY marine response). All incidents in which either the NYPD/FDNY or both responded with manpower and resources not found in Southern Westchester.

Standing on shore with a pair of binoculars watching those guys "do the backstroke" wasn't gonna get them out of the water.

If I'm wrong please correct me and enlighten me as to what sort of response is in place for these sort of emergencies.

[abaduck 123]

Interesting point, yes we are too thin, but that is because every dept is trying to do everything. Both NYPD & FDNY are large enough to have dedicated units to do this. What about marine firefighting, is that part of our core?

I don't know much about marine firefighting, but that's certainly part of our remit, at least inshore. So what do we do? Equip every town and village along the Hudson with a serious fireboat? No? Every second town? Every third town? Who decides, and on what basis, and who pays? No, I think that's something that shouldn't be down to individual communities.

Judging by the FDNY/NYPD response time to inwood and the heights for jumpers and people in the water I think that time would be inadequete to the Tappan Zee area. Other posters may be on to something with the regional response. A Westchester River Rescue type agency combining the multiple resources would probably be more effective than every small department on the river trying to have their own boat.

Exactly. You're half right, the problem with that is that Westchester is *only one side* of the damn river!

With no disrespect to those agencies that currently provide river rescue and firefighting capabilities, the only logical way, IMHO, to approach this is to take the geography the river gives us - and to me it seems a Lower Hudson River Fire & Rescue Authority would be the logical conclusion. This would distribute the required resources (rescue and fire boats) in the optimum positions on both sides of the river. This isn't something it's appropriate to handle at the town, county, or state level. This approach is used for other public services - the MTA and PANYNJ for instance - so I don't see why it shouldn't work.

(All dumb ideas are mine and mine alone; I speak for myself, not my department!)