Technical Rescue Teams

[JFLYNN 681]

Perhaps asking questions on emtbravo.com is not where your going to receive answers. Perhaps DEMANDING answers is not the right way to ask. Perhaps asking questions then ripping the team apart verbally is a reason they haven't received answers

P.s

This is my opinion

I have zero affiliation with this team.

As I stated in a previous thread, I had sent an email from my official Yonkers email account to the DES individual who is listed on their website as being the person, or one of the persons "in charge" of this "team". I had respectfully asked these same questions to him, explaining that as a Deputy Chief on the Yonkers Fire Department (and a former long time Captain of our Rescue Company as well as former NYS adjunct instructor teaching technical rescue), I felt that I should be aware of the capabilities (or lack thereof) of this team in the event that we might be working together at a large scale emergency. I received no response. I felt no need to pursue it further because in my opinion based on what I have seen and heard, the County Team is not a viable asset and should nort be taken seriously. I did however provide them the opportunity to begin a professional discourse and perhaps prove to me that my impression is incorrect.

The only times I have posted on this website regarding the County Team is to express my opinion after a previous poster has touted the capabilities of this "team". I have never criticized a particular individual on this "team", nor did I get involved in criticizing any particular incidents, such as the one in Hastings. The simple fact is that by any reasonable measure, the Westchester Technical Rescue Team, or whatever they are calling themselves, is not viable as a technical rescue asset and to purport otherwise is a disservice to those we are sworn to protect and may in fact cause loss of life in the future.

[Raz 14]

It is my belief that operational means that the team is able to respond to calls with an appropriate number of trained personnel in a safe and timely manner. They train twice a month. to my knowledge the requirements to be on the team is a minimum of Rescue tech basic with more classes encouraged. The team has had several activations since it going operational.

First off, RTB is the extent of my official training in tech rescue. I've always chosen to concentrate on fire and EMS, as those skills see more day to day use as well as pay my bills. So when I say this, it's not to down anyone as some holier than thou poster: RTB is nowhere close to being enough as far as minimum standards go. As far as I know, there isn't so much as a mention of the word "trench" in that class. I'm pretty sure it only entails low angle rescue and 3 to 1 Z rigs. I'm sure that some members have far more training, but a team is only as good as it's weakest members (anyone watching the Giants in the last two weeks will agree).

Again, not to knock anyone, but that's like calling for BLS when a job requires ALS.

[MJP399 4]

Training

2 drills per month is not enough to be competent in building collapse, trench collapse, confined space, rope rescue and the plan to add water rescue

Does New Rochelle have a technical rescue team, and if so how often do they train per month and respond per month? This knowledge could be helpful with developing a protocol for training in the future of this County Team. If New Rochelle does not have a technical rescue team, than what department in the Westchester area, does have it, and is trained more than twice a month with drills and such?

This is a good topic and maybe both sides can get answers they would like, as what does the county team consist of, and than how can the team better themselves by following the examples of established staffed technical rescue teams.

Edited January 7, 2010 by MJP399

[JJB531 652]

What about the Town of Greenburgh joint PD/FD TRT? Are they considered a valuable resource in terms of technical rescue? Assuming that members of a TRT are already competent in their skills, how many drills per month should a TRT conduct to ensure their competency?

I don't know much about the Fire Service, and the little that I do know is that the capabilities of Yonkers FD far surpasses most other career departments in the County. My only question is that if a unit like the Westchester County HAZMAT unit or TRT is considered an unnecessary duplication of resources, as was stated by another poster, since the City of Yonkers already has these resources available, will the City of Yonkers FD respond mutual aid to an incident in the northern parts of Westchester County? What if Yonkers FD responds mutual aid to an incident in Yorktown, and is now unavailable to the City of Yonkers?

I'm only asking because I really don't know a single thing about the Fire Service.

[JFLYNN 681]

What about the Town of Greenburgh joint PD/FD TRT? Are they considered a valuable resource in terms of technical rescue? Assuming that members of a TRT are already competent in their skills, how many drills per month should a TRT conduct to ensure their competency?

I don't know much about the Fire Service, and the little that I do know is that the capabilities of Yonkers FD far surpasses most other career departments in the County. My only question is that if a unit like the Westchester County HAZMAT unit or TRT is considered an unnecessary duplication of resources, as was stated by another poster, since the City of Yonkers already has these resources available, will the City of Yonkers FD respond mutual aid to an incident in the northern parts of Westchester County? What if Yonkers FD responds mutual aid to an incident in Yorktown, and is now unavailable to the City of Yonkers?

I'm only asking because I really don't know a single thing about the Fire Service.

To properly answer your question would take a bit of time which I don't have right now. Perhaps Billfitz or Bnechis can lay it all out but if they don't I will do it as soon as possible. For now, suffice to say that:

#1. I do not agree with your assessment that Yonkers "far surpasses most other career departments in the County" (but thanks for the compliment). many other departments in the Southern Westchester Special Operations Task Force have robust tech rescue capabilities.

#2. There is a task force in place which is broken up into squads 9seceral differeent career departments and at one time a squad or two of volunteers were invirted to participate but declined) We have responded when requested into Northern parts (volunteer) of the County More specifics on that later.

#3. As far as training levels as asked by another poster...the differences are immense and we can elaborate on that more later...hopefully billfitz or bnechis will take me off the hook and explain this better than i can.

[MJP399 4]

JFlynn I agree that the training differences are there, as I am not part of the Technical Rescue Team, so I am outsider looking in.

Do you do in house training as a refresher, as I can imagine some of the calls that you go on would require skills that are similar to those needed for this team on a daily and/or weekly basis. And the academy plus job standard in house training covers much, however, I guess I am asking is how is it handle and some suggestions that you seem fit, that your department does, to improve upon if needed of the technical rescue team.

Also I am not aware of the resources of Southern Westchester, but from your post if I am correct, there are district or zone teams? If so do they train often together, and how would they be called upon if such team does exist?

[Guest]

It is unneccessary duplication of existing reosurces and a drain on resources ($$$$) for other more viable resources

When you say duplication of resources are you implying that there are already teams that have superior training and are better able to handle incidents? While this may be true in some part of westchester, yonkers, the picture is different in northern areas of the county. In order for you to say that it is a duplication of resources than you are saying that there is already a team that will respond anywhere in the county. Or are you offering your TRT for the rest of the county to use?

[JFLYNN 681]

When you say duplication of resources are you implying that there are already teams that have superior training and are better able to handle incidents? While this may be true in some part of westchester, yonkers, the picture is different in northern areas of the county. In order for you to say that it is a duplication of resources than you are saying that there is already a team that will respond anywhere in the county. Or are you offering your TRT for the rest of the county to use?

This comes across more as an opinion to me than an actual question. And frankly, I would not normally dignify comments and opinions coming from an 18-20 year old (whether career or volunteer) with a response. It is basically impossible in my opinion for you to have adequate expertise in this area for anyone to take your opinions seriously. I do not mean this as an insult- it just is what it is...you have not had enough years as an adult on this planet to have accumulated adequate

e or experience on this subject to engage in debate. If you were a career Firefighter it would already have been explained to you in no uncertain terms to keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut (or in this case keep your fingers off the keyboard) until you have some time on the job. This is for your own good most of all...how can you ever learn if you can't humble yourself to just be quiet and listen for a while?

That being said, since you raised the point and others out there may be wondering and it gives me another opportunity to get the message out (thanks for that, BTW)...the history of the existing career team is clear...I cannot speak for the various Fire Commissioners / Chiefs of Department of the various teams which make up the career task force but there is an established history of the Southern Westchester Career Depts. responding when requested to Northern Westchester. I have no doubt that if there were an incident anywhere in Westchester requiring the response of USAR assets, and if the Southern Westchester Career Task Force was requested, that they would arrive in force and be operational long before anything even approaching an adequate response from this other "team" showed up. The shane is that we would not be called immediately most likely...there would very likely be a delay while the other team is called and responds with a completely inadequate number of trained and capable personnel.

But, you have apparently confused my posts on two different threads young man. I do not believe the Westchester Tech Rescue "team" is a duplication of resources...I believe they are an illusion and are not actually a viable resource at all. Further, many years ago, as I have stated previously, the Southern West Spec. Ops. Task Force had offered to have a squad or squads established in Northern Westchester which would include volunteers, however this effort was killed politically by the volunteers because they wanted their "own" team....

Thanks for throwing me the softball. I'm sure you are a great guy and have wonderful intentions but I would strongly advise you to stick witht the basics for a while...concentrate on hoses and ladders and all that stuff...

[x635 4,066]

There was an article published in Fire Engineering regarding the Westchester County Task Force Concept. It was written by Commisioner Kiernan of New Rochelle FD. It's good reading, and takes you through the very well thought out concept that was proposed:

"PROPOSED TASK FORCE WOULD EXPAND HOMELAND SECURITY NETWORK"

http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display/151147/articles/fire-engineering/volume-155/issue-6/features/proposed-task-force-would-expand-homeland-security-network.html

[Bnechis 3,961]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the county tech team consolidation? Instead of every town and village trying to form their own they created this team. From what I'm getting from this site, this is what everyone wants and now its no good?

No its not "consolidated". The Westchester Special Operations Task Force (WSOTF)was designed to operate with multiple squad companies county wide. The original plans included departments from one end of the county to the other. A small group of very vocal individuals insisted that they would start there own volunteer team and they would have nothing to do with a consolidated team. We trained over 700 responders (FD,EMS & PD) for Hazmat/WMD to tech level then trained about 400 to technical rescue technicians, rope, confined space, trench & building collapse. The group that became the counties TRT was offered in a number of times, in fact we brought equipment to Yorktown and to Valhalla to meet with different depts to go over the concept of those department participating in WSOTF. They refused. That would have been a consolidated well equipped and trained team. If it was not for the fact that the County found the pot of gold (Syossit FD) Tech rescue vehicles on sale for 70% off, the "County TRT" would still not exist.

[x635 4,066]

There was an article published in Fire Engineering regarding the Westchester County Task Force Concept. It was written by Commisioner Kiernan of New Rochelle FD. It's good reading, and takes you through the very well thought out concept that was proposed:

"PROPOSED TASK FORCE WOULD EXPAND HOMELAND SECURITY NETWORK"

http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display/151147/articles/fire-engineering/volume-155/issue-6/features/proposed-task-force-would-expand-homeland-security-network.html

[Bnechis 3,961]

Does New Rochelle have a technical rescue team, and if so how often do they train per month and respond per month? This knowledge could be helpful with developing a protocol for training in the future of this County Team. If New Rochelle does not have a technical rescue team, than what department in the Westchester area, does have it, and is trained more than twice a month with drills and such?

New Rochelle does not have a technical rescue team. We have a squad company thattrains collectivly with the other Squads and Yonkers.

[MJP399 4]

BNechis: Thanks for the info!

[ladder55 26]

BNechis: Thanks for the info!

Same here

[efdcapt115 1,511]

New Rochelle does not have a technical rescue team. We have a squad company thattrains collectivly with the other Squads and Yonkers.

Capt, you gotta stop spellin' like dem cops......lol

[TimesUp 148]

How much grant money has been spent on the WCTRT? Either for training or equipment or both?

[JFLYNN 681]

No its not "consolidated". The Westchester Special Operations Task Force (WSOTF)was designed to operate with multiple squad companies county wide. The original plans included departments from one end of the county to the other. A small group of very vocal individuals insisted that they would start there own volunteer team and they would have nothing to do with a consolidated team. We trained over 700 responders (FD,EMS & PD) for Hazmat/WMD to tech level then trained about 400 to technical rescue technicians, rope, confined space, trench & building collapse. The group that became the counties TRT was offered in a number of times, in fact we brought equipment to Yorktown and to Valhalla to meet with different depts to go over the concept of those department participating in WSOTF. They refused. That would have been a consolidated well equipped and trained team. If it was not for the fact that the County found the pot of gold (Syossit FD) Tech rescue vehicles on sale for 70% off, the "County TRT" would still not exist.

Thanks Barry. I knew you would bail me out with the details. I know you have more too...stop holding out on us

[bigyellowtaxi 6]

This is a good, but incorrect article.

The Fire commissioners of Lake Mohegan at the time could not see past their noses. They turned this, and the Haz-Mat team down because they were afraid of hiring more career firefighters and hurting some feelings.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Also I am not aware of the resources of Southern Westchester, but from your post if I am correct, there are district or zone teams? If so do they train often together, and how would they be called upon if such team does exist?

The Westchester Special Operations Task Force (WSOTF) consists of 10 departments operating a Technical rescue, Hazmat unit and 6 squad companies. The squads are from Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt Vernon, White Plains, Eastchester & Scarsdale, and Greenville/Fairview/Hartsdale. All squads are trained and equipped for in Hazmat/WMD and Confined Space, all are trained for trench & building collapse, but only 4 of the squads are equiped for that. We train together, we would like to train together more, but sometimes funding is funneled elsewhere and not to WSOTF ($400,000 from a WSTOF major collapse drill went far north). If you wanted the services of WSOTF they can be requested thru 60 Control, but you have to ask for them, if you want WSOTF otherwise they will send the team they feel is "best".

will the City of Yonkers FD respond mutual aid to an incident in the northern parts of Westchester County? What if Yonkers FD responds mutual aid to an incident in Yorktown, and is now unavailable to the City of Yonkers?

When you say duplication of resources are you implying that there are already teams that have superior training and are better able to handle incidents? While this may be true in some part of westchester, yonkers, the picture is different in northern areas of the county. In order for you to say that it is a duplication of resources than you are saying that there is already a team that will respond anywhere in the county. Or are you offering your TRT for the rest of the county to use?

Yonkers, Greenville and New Rochelle responded to Hawthorne for a building collapse after a tornado strike (about 2 years ago). 18 minutes after dispatch we had approximatly 56 technical rescue techs onscene which included 3 collapse units and 2 heavy rescue units. This was on a weekday afternoon.

Is it a duplication to have the Westchester TRT? what kind of response can they provide? Last weekend Valhalla FD had a vehicle into a building and they requested the WTRT to respond. The onscene time was 20 minutes from time of dispatach. How many members arrived in 20 minutes?

WSOTF was able to get 56 fully trained members to Hawthorne in the same time it tok WTRT to respond to Valhalla with "X" number of responders. Note: as of last summer they had approx 25 members who had completed the states building collapse course.

New Rochelle (and others) have responded M/A to other counties and even north to the Canadian Border. When we were trying to establish a county wide system (years before the WTRT) we traveled north a number of times to show volunteer depts that we wanted their participation.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Capt, you gotta stop spellin' like dem cops......lol

Sorry, long day and tough keys on this laptop....lol

[Bnechis 3,961]

The Fire commissioners of Lake Mohegan at the time could not see past their noses. They turned this, and the Haz-Mat team down because they were afraid of hiring more career firefighters and hurting some feelings.

Good thing that fire commissioners are sworn in to protect the community.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Yonkers, Greenville and New Rochelle responded to Hawthorne for a building collapse after a tornado strike (about 2 years ago). 18 minutes after dispatch we had approximatly 56 technical rescue techs onscene which included 3 collapse units and 2 heavy rescue units. This was on a weekday afternoon.

Is it a duplication to have the Westchester TRT? what kind of response can they provide? Last weekend Valhalla FD had a vehicle into a building and they requested the WTRT to respond. The onscene time was 20 minutes from time of dispatach. How many members arrived in 20 minutes?

WSOTF was able to get 56 fully trained members to Hawthorne in the same time it tok WTRT to respond to Valhalla with "X" number of responders. Note: as of last summer they had approx 25 members who had completed the states building collapse course.

New Rochelle (and others) have responded M/A to other counties and even north to the Canadian Border. When we were trying to establish a county wide system (years before the WTRT) we traveled north a number of times to show volunteer depts that we wanted their participation.

I'm sorry I used all my "rep" points up for today, because this post truly sums up the hard work the members have put in to WSOTF, and what it is capable of. Nice job Captain.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm sorry I used all my "rep" points up for today, because this post truly sums up the hard work the members have put in to WSOTF, and what it is capable of. Nice job Captain.

Thanks...Thats ok "the points don't matter" - Drew Carey (whose line is it anyway)

[HFD23 37]

Yonkers, Greenville and New Rochelle responded to Hawthorne for a building collapse after a tornado strike (about 2 years ago). 18 minutes after dispatch we had approximatly 56 technical rescue techs onscene which included 3 collapse units and 2 heavy rescue units. This was on a weekday afternoon.

Great Post Capt, Just a note Hartsdale and Fairview FD's Also deployed several Collapse Rescue Technicians to the Hawthorne Incident

[Bnechis 3,961]

Great Post Capt, Just a note Hartsdale and Fairview FD's Also deployed several Collapse Rescue Technicians to the Hawthorne Incident

Thanks, didn't mean to leave you out, I should have written Greenburgh Squad #6.

[ny10570 745]

Lets also not forget the response of the career depts to Pleasantville when the rear wall detached from a building on Manville Rd. The career depts have repeatedly shown they are fully capable of playing nice in the sandbox. Its time we focus on getting the job done right rather than getting everyone involved with the job.

[TFD141@aol.com 26]

To join the WCTRT you must be trained to the minimum of BRT which is a NYS course, be 21 and have taken FF or other (have some non-fire people i.e.; PD, EMS, Engineers, Surgeons, etc.) training, passed the annual NFPA/OSHA medical and have SCBA clearances for interior operations. Training continues with utilizing NYS Technical Rescue courses same as everyone else. WCTRT members progress from awareness to operational to technician as they take courses. They have varying amounts of awareness, operational and technical level responders in each of the seven TRT areas and meet all NFPA standards. The twice monthly are drills to maintain and refresh training based on the NYS courses and are usually under the guidance of a NYS instructor. Two years ago WCTRT were called about 12 times in one year and responded with over 20 technician level responders for each of the calls, with more operational and awareness level members. WCTRT went on structural collapses, trench rescues, swift water/Flood rescues, wilderness SAR, confined space, high angle rope rescues, etc. It was a busy year, but since then responses have averaged 4-6 per year which is what was anticipated. WCTRT also have been dispatched regionally by the state during storm and resultant flood waters and the state recognizes WCTRT have "come a long way in a short time”. Our apparatus & equipment is incredible in how it has grown and we have been trained on all of the various apparatus. Includes the MEC rail cars were we can access rail lines during TRT or haz mat calls. START training gave us technician & specialist T-T-T level training prior to initiation county-wide. The present 20-40 responders on each of the calls is typical and we can call on more if the call is extended. We have gone through 3 sets of 50 to 100 technicians prior to the present (4th round of) staffing which is between 50-100 averaging approximately 75. In the ideal world we would like to keep all of the people however, people and lives change and the pay is not so good. Most of our equipment and apparatus have been paid for through various grants with minimal cost to the residents of Westchester County. We also have a mutual aid team for back up and we are speaking to other regions to work together. To date all WCTRT members have not received one dime for our time or effort or even for our personal gas, nor do we ask for it. Response times are: apparatus out the door manned within minutes of dispatch as it is a central location and we need to drive to it. For one, I am usually there in about 5-10 minutes depending on traffic. Many members and team leaders respond directly to the scene depending on the location of the member to the call location to provide expertise to the local first responders. We have so much equipment it takes a large binder to maintain the records but I would estimate there is $5-10 million invested. We have saved more than one life, and as we all say in emergency services ..."if we save one life it was all worth it". I hope this answers your questions, and please show some respect for a quality team. I don't bad mouth your career squads and you should not bad mouth the "volunteer" team. We are both in it for one purpose....and the WCTRT has performed well in that respect. BTW, nice high angle rescue on that apartment building in Yonkers a while ago but you should have called us for back up (Ha-hah). You were called to the tornado in Mt Pleasant, in an OMG a 100% volunteer area. And just so you know, the county executive past and present, and the Board of Legislators realize we are cost effective and a highly regarded TRT by our peers. I only wish we could work together. I say that you should want a trained FF even if all you can afford is a volunteer (yes we meet all national and state standards regardless of what some of you think, and yes some volunteer leaders don't lead, but I see that in career departments as well) with minimum staffing and if it means a mix of volunteer until you can afford more, you should embrace it for the good of your community. I guess my glasses are a little too rose colored....

I know most if not all of the posters above and most of you know me. I am an original founder of the team started in August 2001, and the county approved the team several years later. So we have been in service for over 12 years, I believe 7 under the county. I usually don't answer requests on this site as it seems anything a "volunteer" does is no good to some, and eventually turns into a bashing and pissing match. That's not my style. I quote LA's Rodney King, "can't we all just get along (work) together?" So I say: The emperor has clothes in this case....and more....much more....it is not unnecessary, is the most cost effective and most viable special operations, that’s why it was chosen to serve all of Westchester County and continues serving with distinction today.

I would like to emphasize that in this post as well as in any post I make on EMTBravo, or elsewhere, I am expressing myself as a private citizen, in a non-official capacity. The content of my posts is not being disclosed in my official capacity and such content represents solely my opinions and does not necessarily represent the official position of the County of Westchester or the Thornwood Fire Department.

And yes, I realize it would be safer to express myself anonymously, but that is not my style and never will be.

[billfitz 109]

wow - it took almost 4 years to answer that question! - Did he just wake up out of a coma? Do they take that long to respond - lol - I stand by my original assesment - the emperor has no clothes!

[spin_the_wheel 460]

wow - it took almost 4 years to answer that question! - Did he just wake up out of a coma? Do they take that long to respond - lol - I stand by my original assesment - the emperor has no clothes!

You just made his point by bashing LOL.

[JM15 386]

That's not my style. I quote LA's Rodney King, "can't we all just get along (work) together?"

I really liked the Rodney King quote!!