Would you still volunteer.......

[Remember585 815]

The LOSAP system is an insult to those that joined for the right reasons. I find those that base their participation in a fire department solely to "earn" their LOSAP points aren't worth a fraction of those that come around because they joined to help their communities. The volunteer fire service needs true firefighters, not members on paper. As soon as we all realize this then maybe we could earn some respect from the career brothers.

Volunteer Fire Associations, no one in specific, harp on the "strength in numbers" thing, yet they don't make much effort to improve us as firefighters. More time and money is spent fighting for "rewards" that we shouldn't even be thinking about then pushing us to better train and prepare for the emergencies we're called upon.

The majority of our department is no longer using blue lights, mostly because they draw attention to you and the public doesn't care.

Like my Dad said earlier, we shouldn't have joined if we were looking for rewards. If you want rewards, buy a credit card or get cable TV. Although now you won't get the Food Network...

[Remember585 815]

That would actually be the 911 Dispatchers in New York State who continue to be snubbed by the political leaders in Albany year after year.

Actually, we have a pension system. But at the rate things are going, we'll have to work up to the day we die to actually see it, then it will be too late!

[markmets415 524]

Barry

I joined my dept way back in 1972, I wasn't promised anything and I expected nothing and I still feel that way. I was against and still am against our losap program and I believe it is one of the worst things we have done. We have people that come around just for thier points, the first thing they look for is the call sheet so they can sign in and then usually disappear, they do the same thing for training sessions as well. I continue to respond, train, attend meetings, etc because I want to not for the losap as I could car eless abot it. I really haven't seen an increase in members since we started this program, we get a few each year and lose a few each year and unfortunately the ones we lose are usuallly good firefighters.

As for the original topic "courtesy lights" My opinio is that no one really understands their purpose including those that use them as well as the general public. How many of you with blue lights have written authorization from your Chief as required by law?

As for asking the question of career Firefighters taking the job if there wee no pension, who in this day & age would take a job that offers no pension?

Excellent Points Chief.

Well being my Company does not have a pension plan and probably will never, nor do I care if I have a blue light, red light or whatever color light they choose to allow us to use to answer your question Dan, no I would still be a member and believe or not there are people out there in the volunteer service that joined just so they can have a light because if you're an active member of a volunteer department then you know that you have members that don't turn out for anything but they ride around with their nice fancy blue light bar on top of their vehicles.

[JFLYNN 681]

The LOSAP system is an insult to those that joined for the right reasons. I find those that base their participation in a fire department solely to "earn" their LOSAP points aren't worth a fraction of those that come around because they joined to help their communities. The volunteer fire service needs true firefighters, not members on paper. As soon as we all realize this then maybe we could earn some respect from the career brothers.

Volunteer Fire Associations, no one in specific, harp on the "strength in numbers" thing, yet they don't make much effort to improve us as firefighters. More time and money is spent fighting for "rewards" that we shouldn't even be thinking about then pushing us to better train and prepare for the emergencies we're called upon.

The majority of our department is no longer using blue lights, mostly because they draw attention to you and the public doesn't care.

Like my Dad said earlier, we shouldn't have joined if we were looking for rewards. If you want rewards, buy a credit card or get cable TV. Although now you won't get the Food Network...

John, nice post. It's a shame more volunteer Firefighters don't look at these issues as you do. That's a great thing about sites such as this though...little by little the information can get out and maybe we can wake people up to the realities and perhaps accomplish some positive change.

[KCRD 6]

Now let me ask this.........Would you still be a career FF...............if they didn't have pensions?

I can tell you that when I signed up to take the test @ 20 yrs old, the LAST thing on my mind was a pension that was 20+ years away.

[KRF178 49]

1st off I wouldn't stop volunteering if they took away blue lights, the LOSAP system, or tax credits etc., and I don't think many people would stop for those reasons.

Comparing a pension to a courtesy light? C'mon....

As far as LOSAP, I've seen through my experience that it doesn't aid in recruitment at all! Most of the people that join really want to help their community or be a FF. If a person approaches me with intrest in joining the FD, the last thing I lightly mention is that....and truthfully, its never really been a "dealbreaker" Has it aided in retention? The answer is yes, but in a negative way. Its retained the "free loaders," "bar problem solvers," and whatever other terms you may have for them. Everyone knows these people, they're the ones at the meetings, training sessions, that are only worried about the sign in sheet. But the one that really burns me is the ones that are looking for their point at a wake, funeral, or memorial service(literally, they will lay the paper on the casket to get that point). Its kind of like they are only concerned with getting an extra point than actually being there to honor a deceased member and pay their respects to the family. Maybe at one point these kind of members were an asset to the organization, but I don' t think that entitles them to turn into the blood-sucking mutants that they've become.

And before the question is asked, yes I sign the sheets too. However, that is NOT my reason for being a volunteer. I do it because I have family ties to it, I love to do it, and to serve my community. I feel that if the above mentioned members are entitled to it, I and other members similar to me absolutely are too. We're the ones that get up at 2am for the auto alarms, participate in training, and help out in every event in the department does, regardless of whether we get a "point" or not.

[gamewell45 258]

The LOSAP system is an insult to those that joined for the right reasons. I find those that base their participation in a fire department solely to "earn" their LOSAP points aren't worth a fraction of those that come around because they joined to help their communities. The volunteer fire service needs true firefighters, not members on paper. As soon as we all realize this then maybe we could earn some respect from the career brothers.

Volunteer Fire Associations, no one in specific, harp on the "strength in numbers" thing, yet they don't make much effort to improve us as firefighters. More time and money is spent fighting for "rewards" that we shouldn't even be thinking about then pushing us to better train and prepare for the emergencies we're called upon.

The majority of our department is no longer using blue lights, mostly because they draw attention to you and the public doesn't care.

Like my Dad said earlier, we shouldn't have joined if we were looking for rewards. If you want rewards, buy a credit card or get cable TV. Although now you won't get the Food Network...

I commend you for your honesty.

My next question to you is if your enrolled in your departments LOSAP program, are you going to collect your benefit when you become of age? or are you going to refuse the benefit?

I think many of the people in here who bash LOSAP will be the same people who line up with their hands outstretched for the monies when they turn 65 and you people know who you are. You are more of a hypocrite then those who admit they solely join for the LOSAP benefit. At least they are being honest about their intentions.

[IMAFF 2]

Just my two cents!!!!!

Yes I would. I don't have one now but when I did nobody seemed to care anyway!

I work for the town (southern westchester) that I grew up in and my mom still lives in.

I live 20+ mile from town but make all the training and meetings that I can!

Since I moved to my home (northern westchester) I don't accumulate enough points to earn my credits anyway!

Would I have become a garbage man if there was no pension, "HIGHLY DOUBT IT"

[Remember585 815]

I commend you for your honesty.

My next question to you is if your enrolled in your departments LOSAP program, are you going to collect your benefit when you become of age? or are you going to refuse the benefit?

I think many of the people in here who bash LOSAP will be the same people who line up with their hands outstretched for the monies when they turn 65 and you people know who you are. You are more of a hypocrite then those who admit they solely join for the LOSAP benefit. At least they are being honest about their intentions.

Not that I have to answer your question, but I will.

Will I line up to get it? As of now, probably not, because a part of me thinks it won't even be there, and the bigger part of me doesn't want it. Will my opinion change, perhaps.

If you are referring to me as a hypocrite, you don't know me. You're probably one of those gun-ho types who thinks all of these organizations and associations that suck dues money from the unknowning or those who actually think their dues go towards the bettering of the volunteer fire service. At least most of those guys who put money in to these associations don't pretend it's something more then it is, and go to the freeloads they've rightfully paid for.

People that generally think FASNY and other groups are helping us, are the hypocrites. Take the dues money and go on a dinner cruise or something, rather then fund better training for everyone.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Remember585

[ladder55 26]

My first post on this topic was simple... is this a serious question? I then asked the topic starter if he was just trying to stir the pot which he had no problem admitting to. It has gone from lights, to incentives back and forth and in the end it has no positive information. In my opinion you volunteer if you want to do it. If a career firefighter doesn't understand why we do it then feel free to sign up and maybe you will understand.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It has gone from lights, to incentives back and forth and in the end it has no positive information. In my opinion you volunteer if you want to do it. If a career firefighter doesn't understand why we do it then feel free to sign up and maybe you will understand.

Yes its covered a couple of different areas, but look at the title: "Would you still volunteer"? that could cover a number of different areas, as we have seen.

It is too bad that you can not see the positive info:

1) We have learned that the dedicated volunteers do not need blue lights and they feel they may do more harm then good.

2) We have learned that the dedicated volunteers do not need LOSAP and they feel they may do more harm then good.

3) We have learned that some members are very honest about their departments and are willing to discuse it.

I am still waiting to hear if anyone can show any positive effect LOSAP have had on VFD's?

Yes, there are a lot of reasons why people volunteer, why they stay and why they go. I also think the reasons are very different for those under 21 as for those in other age groups. In the past I have noticed that the under 21 group are the ones who put $4,000 lightbars on $2,000 cars (can you still get cars for that price?). The older group has less concern with lights.

A lot of career firefighters, including myself where volunteers. Some still are, others have moved on. We do understand and in my case I left over a year before getting called to my career dept. I left because of the level of BS (lights, training, attendance, drinking in the firehouse during calls, etc.) funny how many of those issues are still being debated 25 years later. As a note I think my former VFD has resolved many of those issues, but only in the last 10 years.

[ladder55 26]

You mention we have learned a few times in your post but who is we? Do you mean volunteers are learning why we volunteer? I agree that the volunteer fire service has it's issues, and on this site they are talked about constantly but what about the positive? I'm sure there are a low percentage of volunteers that do this with the wrong intentions but the great majority of volunteers do this for ALL the right reasons

[helicopper 1,050]

I'd just like to point something out that is completely off topic but entirely relevant to the site. How many posts in this thread call for "something to be done", "close this", "delete this" (post or thread", etc.? Yet the staff is criticized for doing it's job and moderating and big words like "censorship" are batted about.

Pick your poison! Either we're going to endure threads that make you mad or simply shake your head and get over it or we're going to become so politically correct that nothing ever gets discussed.

Someone asked what EMTBravo is becoming and that question is flawed. It should be what are you contributing to EMTBravo. This site is about the membership and all these discussions are YOURS. Some of them get heated and some are more critical than others but that's the price we pay, we take the good, the bad, and the ugly.

And for those of you who think it's funny to speculate on how long a thread or post is going to last, ask yourselves how you'd like it if you were a moderator on this site?

[ajsbear 11]

I have been involved in the Fire Service for over 35 years, when I started there was no LOSAP. I do not feel any different today as I did then. I am here to make a difference, to help my neighbors and no lights are going to make any difference. I can't tell you how many times I have been behind the wheel on a rig and can't get out of the parking lot because the cars do not stop for red lights and sirens so forget the blue lights, LOSAP? I don't care about that either. I will provide for my family with my pension, 401 and other investments.

[ex-commish 490]

1) We have learned that the dedicated volunteers do not need blue lights and they feel they may do more harm then good.

2) We have learned that the dedicated volunteers do not need LOSAP and they feel they may do more harm then good.

3) We have learned that some members are very honest about their departments and are willing to discuse it.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[x129K 1,393]

Well I am glad some can actually past the BS and nonsense and take some good from this post. Yes, it could have been taken as stirring the pot, and I will admit - it may have been - a little. BUT..I KNOW those vollies who post here, who are active in conversations, to gain knowledge and information from the more esteemed members ARE NOT THE TYPE WHO WOULD CALL IT A DAY IF THE TOOK AWAY THE BELOVED WHOOPIE LIGHTS. You, and I do it for the right reasons..

Barry nailed it - the young fellar in question who I saw, at a local gas station talking to his other young buddy, was driving a raggedy a** pick up, dual whip antennas, primer, bondo, stickers UP THE WAZOO, a dash light, lights in the rear window, and the holy grail of buffiness, a shiny new full length LED bar with yellow, blue, and red to the back (he turned it on to show his buddy)...His buddy laughed, said it was illegal and the Chief might make him take it off...his reply, "Hell with that! i'll quit first!"

For the record - I used to have a bazillion whoopie lights on my vehicles..(Seth can attest to that! LOL!)....got in trouble a few times too..actually had a Chief with BALLS who took them away for 3 months. I slowly learned my lesson.

It aint about lights...stickers...LOSAP...etc...It's about doing the right thing. Doing all you can to be the BEST firefighter you can...learning, training, and applying.

To those who cry shhut this topic down, perhaps the truth hurts?

[gss131 212]

http://jalopnik.com/5428800/ham-radio-car-sale-photos/gallery/1 All right dan,you can have my light ,BUT NOT MY RADIOS!

[DCJPells 29]

It aint about lights...stickers...LOSAP...etc...It's about doing the right thing. Doing all you can to be the BEST firefighter you can...learning, training, and applying.

Well said Dan!!!

[64FFMJK 21]

feel free to call me dumb but what the hell is LOSAP. Obviously the last FD I was with in NY was not a part of it and I care more about learning how to do my job properly instead of standing around saying "whats in it for me?"

I have been involved in the Fire service in one way or another since I was 16. Would I do it with out lights definitely its not about lights its about doing the right thing.

Here's a twist to your question. How many with out lights would run out and buy lights if Red lights and siren were legal for Volunteers for their POV?

I personally would not I would simply go with out.

[paratrooper75 41]

if "courtesy lights" were outlawed?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! No offense but blue lights are near useless anyway. lol. For the lights??? hahahahahahaha.

[DOC22 1]

It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if "courtesy lights" were outlawed all together. I haven't used a blue light since the 1980s.

[Bnechis 3,961]

feel free to call me dumb but what the hell is LOSAP.

Length Of Service Award Program

Its basicly a pension for volunteers, based on meeting a minimum % of calls, meeting & training over X number of years. The standards are set by the dept.

The idea is this would add in recruitment & retention and thats how it was sold to most communities (who had to hold referendum votes on it).

[Guest EFFP411]

I can say a couple years ago I may have been a little annoyed if they were outlawed, HOWEVER it would not drive me to leave the department, i wouldn't even entertain the thought for a second. You have to be some kind of idiot to just up and leave for something so insignificant. Those who know me well enough, know I was one of those guys that had lights out the wazoo when i was younger, but I have since had less and less time to devote to being a volunteer now that i have a good job, and "grown up" a bit so to speak. I turn my pager off at night if i have to work the next day, I cant afford to be exhausted at work because i was out on calls all night. As for the lights, I sold some off, the rest are collecting dust in my closet, there's 1 in my every day car and i don;t think i've used it in months. Again, mostly part due to the fact that i don't respond from home nearly as often as i used to, the time I do give is rostered on duty with at the firehouse, so I don't really have a use for it anymore.

As for the LOSAP thing, it started after I joined the dept. and in all honesty is nothing but a pain in the rear. Half the time if i go to a meeting i forget to sign the sheet and if i go to a drill the only reason i sign in is so i get the acknoledgement for the TRAINING

[gamewell45 258]

Not that I have to answer your question, but I will.

Will I line up to get it? As of now, probably not, because a part of me thinks it won't even be there, and the bigger part of me doesn't want it. Will my opinion change, perhaps.

If you are referring to me as a hypocrite, you don't know me. You're probably one of those gun-ho types who thinks all of these organizations and associations that suck dues money from the unknowning or those who actually think their dues go towards the bettering of the volunteer fire service. At least most of those guys who put money in to these associations don't pretend it's something more then it is, and go to the freeloads they've rightfully paid for.

People that generally think FASNY and other groups are helping us, are the hypocrites. Take the dues money and go on a dinner cruise or something, rather then fund better training for everyone.

I was not referring to you as a hypocrite; please re-read the post. Then if you feel you were wrong, you may retract what you referred to me as. As for the rest of your remarks, I'll PM you to discuss them rather then get into a pissing match in here.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I think in most Departments you need to be a member for 5 years before you get vested for anything. At least in my place the dead wood people who have joined for the wrong reasons are weeded out way before the 5 year mark. I don't think it really helped getting any new members but has retained some good guys who have stayed around for 20 or 25 years instead of leaving at the 10 or 15 year mark.

I still think the best system to attract if your not going paid is the pay on call system...so we dont call ourselves volunteers anymore, I think it is more attractive to a younger person knowing they will get a check for a certain amount of $ every 4 or 6 months. Fort Lee NJ has been doing this for decades now...anyone from the area know if this works well?

As for me I could care less about the LOSAP, it wasnt there when I joined and if it went away tomorrow I wouldnt miss a beat. Oh and I have always lived close to the firehouse so a blue light never mattered. I remember my old fireball in the winter would not work sometimes because of the cold..I would bang on it and it would finally start a slow rotate as I was pulling into the lot of the firehouse...but I do flash my high beams.

[Steve 78]

John, nice post. It's a shame more volunteer Firefighters don't look at these issues as you do. That's a great thing about sites such as this though...little by little the information can get out and maybe we can wake people up to the realities and perhaps accomplish some positive change.

JFLNN, What positive changes would you like to see in the volunteer fire service?

[FFLieu 70]

Oh goodie. Another God-forsaken blue light thread that nothing good will come of, mark my words. Someone should close this ASAP.

But, I'll add my two cents.

I volunteer because I want to help my community. I have a blue light in my truck and can count on one hand how many times I have used it in the past 3 years since I bought my truck. If courtesy lights were outlawed, I'd still volunteer because I'm not a superficial, one-dimensional character.

[post4031 16]

I think in most Departments you need to be a member for 5 years before you get vested for anything. At least in my place the dead wood people who have joined for the wrong reasons are weeded out way before the 5 year mark. I don't think it really helped getting any new members but has retained some good guys who have stayed around for 20 or 25 years instead of leaving at the 10 or 15 year mark.

I still think the best system to attract if your not going paid is the pay on call system...so we dont call ourselves volunteers anymore, I think it is more attractive to a younger person knowing they will get a check for a certain amount of $ every 4 or 6 months. Fort Lee NJ has been doing this for decades now...anyone from the area know if this works well?

As for me I could care less about the LOSAP, it wasnt there when I joined and if it went away tomorrow I wouldnt miss a beat. Oh and I have always lived close to the firehouse so a blue light never mattered. I remember my old fireball in the winter would not work sometimes because of the cold..I would bang on it and it would finally start a slow rotate as I was pulling into the lot of the firehouse...but I do flash my high beams.

Are we really volunteer if we will be getting a financial benefit? Paid-Call is not legal in NY as far as I know as I have asked reps from State Fire. I wish it was so those who bust their butts day in and day out could be compensated. Only opinion on lights is as long as the there are no other colors/hide away strobes, etc. I really don't care. Most people don't yield anyway.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

If we need to shed the volunteer title so be it...I think the paid on call method is better then LOSAP IF you are going to pick 1 of the 2. I did not know the paid on call method was not legal in NY...wonder why?

[post4031 16]

If we need to shed the volunteer title so be it...I think the paid on call method is better then LOSAP IF you are going to pick 1 of the 2. I did not know the paid on call method was not legal in NY...wonder why?

As far as a fire district is concerned it is, OFPC does list paid on call firefighters as part of it's statewide resources. However, I do believe these are Cities/Villages that can do this and they are considered part time employees. At least that is how it was explained to me. The Association of Fire Districts legal counsel along with another Fire District Attorney said there are no provisions in the law for this and it would create conflicts with host of other laws.