Spano "Achievements" Misrepresent DES Actions on 9/11

[JAD622 40]

If I remember correctly, DES purchased (by way of grant $$$?) several adapters and they keep them at DES, so in the event of a Mutual Aid event in NYC, units can obtain this equipment and take it with them.

True, however at the last drill (Oct) they had the bags there and they had some useful fittings but no magnetic wrenches.Hopefully they will be able to obtain some in the near future.

[Bnechis 3,961]

If I remember correctly, DES purchased (by way of grant $$$?) several adapters and they keep them at DES, so in the event of a Mutual Aid event in NYC, units can obtain this equipment and take it with them.

True, however at the last drill (Oct) they had the bags there and they had some useful fittings but no magnetic wrenches.Hopefully they will be able to obtain some in the near future.

Did they "purchase" them or did FDNY provide them, with the understanding that they would be issued to the depts/companies that they agreed would be responding M/A into the city? Since the FDNY/OFPC plan is to have the career depts. respond and we border them and can be on station in just a few minutes then why should we have to wait for DES to dig them out, and drive them around to 11 different fire departments before we can respond? And what will the delay be if it is during off hours, the extra wait for someone to go to DES to dig them out?

Yep we are as ready as we were 9 years ago. Good thing the career chiefs got additional equipment this year from FDNY.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Bnechis

[JAD622 40]

Did they "purchase" them or did FDNY provide them, with the understanding that they would be issued to the depts/companies that they agreed would be responding M/A into the city? Since the FDNY/OFPC plan is to have the career depts. respond and we border them and can be on station in just a few minutes then why should we have to wait for DES to dig them out, and drive them around to 11 different fire departments before we can respond? And what will the delay be if it is during off hours, the extra wait for someone to go to DES to dig them out?

Yep we are as ready as we were 9 years ago. Good thing the career chiefs got additional equipment this year from FDNY.

I agree that waiting for the "Bags" to be distributed during a real event seems counter-productive to a timely response. However, DES insists it be done this way. That is why we met with DC Dunne (Div.7) and acquired the fittings and wrench I mentioned in my previous post. At least the Engine Companies would have something to use until the "Bags" show up! Your right, "WE'RE READY"!!

[Guest]

Did they "purchase" them or did FDNY provide them, with the understanding that they would be issued to the depts/companies that they agreed would be responding M/A into the city? Since the FDNY/OFPC plan is to have the career depts. respond and we border them and can be on station in just a few minutes then why should we have to wait for DES to dig them out, and drive them around to 11 different fire departments before we can respond? And what will the delay be if it is during off hours, the extra wait for someone to go to DES to dig them out?

Yep we are as ready as we were 9 years ago. Good thing the career chiefs got additional equipment this year from FDNY.

Captain,

It sounds like DES has it all figured out. I use the good old tried and true 7 P's (Proper Prior Planning Prevent Piss Poor Performance)Handing out adapters as they are needed will turn into a bag of worms fast. I would like to be a fly on the pump panel when a company from northern westchester needs to get water through a standpipe to the 26th floor, smoke and fire showing. Quick hookup, standpipe vs sprinkler uhooo! OS&Y open, man several standpipe connections open with no means of shutting them down, stretch or back stretch? auxiliary pumps?

Murphy gets a vote, you have to train for these conditions and when you think you've got it, do it again, cause stuff will go wrong and it can't be taught from a book. Great post Barry

[billfitz 109]

I can only say what happened in Yonkers and there were no tones -"Everyone south of 287 respond to Manhattan" - maybe that is where part of the problems lies "who" said respond to Manhattan - I find that hard to believe unless you can say who said it! - Who are they?

There is currently a plan in place which we have been drilling on for the past several years with FDNY - which puts us in a better place than where we were in 2001.

As far as M/A within Westchester the Career Chiefs demonstrated the Day of Pat Joyce's funeral that they could send upwards of 20 units to cover Yonkers or any other jurisdiction instantaneously - there is a blueprint.

"The Emperor has no clothes"

"Everything is fine no need to worry"

Buffout! - as long as everyone thinks we did a good job that is all that matters!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I can only say what happened in Yonkers and there were no tones -"Everyone south of 287 respond to Manhattan" - maybe that is where part of the problems lies "who" said respond to Manhattan - I find that hard to believe unless you can say who said it! - Who are they?

Whoever was dispatching at 60-Control that day! What's up Chief, are you doubting what I said? Then let's go to the audiotape!

I'm very happy to hear everybody has been drilling with FDNY, too bad nobody has the hydrant wrenches yet. I hope they can fix that one soon.

I also heard that the mutual aid coverage was great for Pat Joyce's funeral. The only problem is some departments send better staffed apparatus on mutual aid then they actually staff for their own jurisdictions. Example: Dept. X has a two man engine, and a two man truck. They get a mutual-aid call for the truck, take the engine out of service, and ride four members on the truck for the MA call. And furthermore, these other depts had days to plan for the funeral. Ask for 20 units because you have a firestorm up in the hills somewhere again, and see what you can get in a timely manner.

This is the way it was when I retired in '06. Maybe things have changed for the better, I hope so.

Refer to my post if you think that I think we did a great job that day.

~Best Regards Chief.

Edited January 4, 2010 by efdcapt115

[grumpyff 1,159]

Whoever was dispatching at 60-Control that day! What's up Chief, are you doubting what I said? Then let's go to the audiotape!

I'm very happy to hear everybody has been drilling with FDNY, too bad nobody has the hydrant wrenches yet. I hope they can fix that one soon.

I also heard that the mutual aid coverage was great for Pat Joyce's funeral. The only problem is some departments send better staffed apparatus on mutual aid then they actually staff for their own jurisdictions. Example: Dept. X has a two man engine, and a two man truck. They get a mutual-aid call for the truck, take the engine out of service, and ride four members on the truck for the MA call.

This is the way it was when I retired in '06. Maybe things have changed for the better, I hope so.

I'll second that, I remember hearing 60-Control dispatch that as I was getting ready to head into the 50 Pct, and thinking "what the hell was that."

...as a side note all you need to open those magnetic hydrants is a good strong speaker magnet, and a pipe wrench. just ask any kid in the neighborhood to show you how to do it.

[wraftery 1,275]

I can only say what happened in Yonkers and there were no tones -"Everyone south of 287 respond to Manhattan" - maybe that is where part of the problems lies "who" said respond to Manhattan - I find that hard to believe unless you can say who said it! - Who are they?

There is currently a plan in place which we have been drilling on for the past several years with FDNY - which puts us in a better place than where we were in 2001.

As far as M/A within Westchester the Career Chiefs demonstrated the Day of Pat Joyce's funeral that they could send upwards of 20 units to cover Yonkers or any other jurisdiction instantaneously - there is a blueprint.

"The Emperor has no clothes"

"Everything is fine no need to worry"

Buffout! - as long as everyone thinks we did a good job that is all that matters!

I heard the same radio transmission and tried to verify what they actually wanted. Unable to verify, we went with our original orders to reeport to 233 st, My only means of communicating with my apparatus was via Nextel because alll freq's were loaded with unnecessary traffic.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I appreciate the members backing up my recollection of the radio that day. I'm going to expand a bit. The dispatcher also said words to the effect "all departments north of 287 respond to the Westchester Training Center."

I have no idea who went where initially, except for one rig. When we took our infamous bus ride to Ground Zero, there was a Westchester career department's rig hooked up to a hydrant, a few blocks north of the collapse zone on the West Side. The members working the rig looked exhausted.

Now; how do you think that rig got there? Do you think their Chief just decided to send apparatus to Ground Zero without orders or dispatch from someone? I highly doubt it.

The debate went on for many months as to what the "right" thing to have done that day would have been. If my chief had followed the directional from 60-control and sent us right to the World Trade Center (assuming the directive to respond "to Manhattan" meant just that), we would have done our duty and gone as ordered. Just as we did our duty, and did nothing regarding the original dispatch; as per Chief's orders; until the plan was evolved to relocate the rigs to the Bronx staging area.

[billfitz 109]

I appreciate the members backing up my recollection of the radio that day. I'm going to expand a bit. The dispatcher also said words to the effect "all departments north of 287 respond to the Westchester Training Center."

I have no idea who went where initially, except for one rig. When we took our infamous bus ride to Ground Zero, there was a Westchester career department's rig hooked up to a hydrant, a few blocks north of the collapse zone on the West Side. The members working the rig looked exhausted.

Now; how do you think that rig got there? Do you think their Chief just decided to send apparatus to Ground Zero without orders or dispatch from someone? I highly doubt it.

The debate went on for many months as to what the "right" thing to have done that day would have been. If my chief had followed the directional from 60-control and sent us right to the World Trade Center (assuming the directive to respond "to Manhattan" meant just that), we would have done our duty and gone as ordered. Just as we did our duty, and did nothing regarding the original dispatch; as per Chief's orders; until the plan was evolved to relocate the rigs to the Bronx staging area.

I certainly do not doubt you or the other members who heard that transmission - my concern is who authorized everyone south of 287 to respond to Manhattan - how ridiculous does that sound! - where is the accountability

Well enough about that -

We request 4 men on a rig for mutual aid because that is what we provide when we go out on mutual aid - simple as that - just like when we go to FDNY we put 6 on the rig

Edited January 4, 2010 by billfitz

[x635 4,066]

DES was not really "in sync" with 60 Control that morning, and it's unfair to make accusations towards 60 Control DISPATCHERS based on things we had no control over through no fault of our own. It's easy to blame dispatchers, who were only doing what they could with NO SOP to follow-including handling several other serious unrelated incidents in Westchester at the same time.

60 Control paged out on that morning for all departments to standby in their quarters, not knowing the full scale of the incident. Some units were requested to stage at the training center based on anticipated need. NO transmission was ever sent out stating for units to respond to Manhattan. There were numerous departments, not only in Westchester, that chose to disregard this order and do what they wanted. 60 Control emphasized that units not strip down their communities and not respond to the scene numerous times. I was on the line with directly with the Bronx CO a few minutes after the incident myself and maintained contact while the events were unfolding, and I relayed to my supervisor what they were requesting at the time and where to send them (staging areas). We were also listening directly to the radio traffic as it happened at the WTC from the minute it happened. The concern was covering incidents in the Bronx because everyone was in Manhattan, and not Ground Zero itself. There were a lot of emotions and ego conflicts that day that were way,way beyond our control. And for the record, NYSOFPC didn't get involved to later that day, and set up the staging area at Yonkers Raceway without even telling 60 Control. 60 Control had no control over that either, but was forced to go there to coordinate the units that somehow ended up there. Everyone was basically doing what they wanted, and we were just trying to keep up. Additionally, units from CT and Rockland ended up at the WCFTC.

Also, 60 Control coordinated a lot more then meets the eye that day, including dispatching Westchester units to the Bronx that were cascade equipped to fill FDNY SCBA bottles. Several departments also took and washed gear. That night, 60 Control dispatchers went to inventory Westchester units,and the day after, dispatchers, including myself, went to the Bronx CO and coordinated/innventoried Westchester units that responded along with FDNY units. That's why there is hole in the wall at the Bronx CO....drilled by their fire alarm technicians so we could plug our Mobile Command Center in. We were also included in their meal.

60 Control has no authority to tell departments what to do, but I have a photo documenting that 60 Control was tracking every unit they could,and keeping track of other things, like hospital beds available for victims that never were.

Also, this event was unprecendented in this country.We had numerous departments calling from all over, including NEBRASKA, offering assistance. A lot of Long Island units went directly to the scene because the missing were members of their company. Everyone wanted to help.

Again, it's unfair to blame the 4 dispatchers working 60 Control that day, including myself, who were victims of circumstance. DES had no plan, there was no SOP in Westchester, and to blame the dispatchers who were overwhelemed and had no protocol or plan to follow is not fair. We did our jobs to the best of our abilities, and to blame this whole thing on "the dispatchers" is just ignorant.

This was not a simple cut-and-dry incident.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I certainly do not doubt you or the other members who heard that transmission - my concern is who authorized everyone south of 287 to respond to Manhattan - how ridiculous does that sound! - where is the accountability

That's a very good point Chief; where is the accountability...

I guess there would have been no central command that knew exactly who went where right away. Only the individual Chiefs would have known what units they sent. I'm speculating that 60-Control was in touch with Manhattan dispatch at the time, and when they were hearing things over the radio like "we're under attack, send the army!" it might have been a quick judgement call to just send units to this catastrophy; and figure it out later.

At any rate, thanks for the response. I wish you and all the other Commanders in Westchester all the best in moving the fire service forward. Lord knows the time is well past due for some major improvements!

~Stay well Chief.

George Glover Jr.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

NO transmission was ever sent out stating for units to respond to Manhattan.

Seth, are you kidding me? You've got three members here telling the board that is EXACTLY what we heard! I never blamed 60-Control for anything, I'm just relaying the FACTS as I remember them, backed up by a couple of reputable posters here....

[x635 4,066]

[LTNRFD 266]

Seth, are you kidding me? You've got three members here telling the board that is EXACTLY what we heard! I never blamed 60-Control for anything, I'm just relaying the FACTS as I remember them, backed up by a couple of reputable posters here....

George...your are 100% right. Glenn at 60 got on the radio and said ' all Westchester county units from south of 287 that are responding to Baily Ave in the Bronx, are now to respond into Manhattan.' When those companies asked, where to respond to in Manhattan, the response was, respond into Manhattan and find someone to direct you. So most of the companies responded to ground zero. There they found out that a staging are was being set up at the Westside Dr. and Canal St. At this staging there was not anyone from FDNY that would take control or was in a position to take control. It was decided between some of the Westchester companies that the need to cover firehouses was more important then waiting to help at ground zero.

So off went a few companies to find firehouses in the area. There were Westchester County compainies that found empty houses, check in with the officer there who notified the Manhattan dispatcher of the M/A companies in that firehoues. They then covered calls for that house till well after midnight.

The Manhattan dispatcher might not have known exactly who was in the firehouse, just that an engine and ladder was there. The officer of the firehouse took ALL the info that might be needed to account for the people standing by at his firehouse.

[x635 4,066]

Seth, are you kidding me? You've got three members here telling the board that is EXACTLY what we heard! I never blamed 60-Control for anything, I'm just relaying the FACTS as I remember them, backed up by a couple of reputable posters here....

The tranmission was for certain units to respond to a staging area in Manhattan, to again, backfill as requested by the Bronx CO-who were overwhelmed themselves with good reason. I remember calling Yonkers FD dispatch and a couple of other southern Westchester career departments and asking them to send units to that staging area, knowing that they were at the time probaly the best resource to send to that location. To the best of my recollection, no units were told to go to Ground Zero and work- I remember watching the news that afternoon and being frusterated seeing select departments at Ground Zero. The staging areas were changed several times by FDNY, and the resources they needed changed by the minute.

The incident was a cluster on so many levels, but blaming the 4 initial dispatchers themselves who were doing the best they could given the complexity and size of the incident without a single protocol or a unified command is absolutely ridiculous. It was not an easy task.

[x635 4,066]

Oh, and I'm just giving the situation from my point of view and to the best of my recollection. I can't give an 100%accurate recollection of things that happened almost 10 years ago, but I'm pretty sure everything I did I made sure to log into the CAD.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The incident was a cluster on so many levels, but blaming the 4 initial dispatchers themselves who were doing the best they could given the complexity and size of the incident without a single protocol or a unified command is absolutely ridiculous. It was not an easy task.

You guys did the best you could under extremely difficult circumstances. NOBODY is blaming 60-Control dispatchers.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Glenn at 60 got on the radio and said ' all Westchester county units from south of 287 that are responding to Baily Ave in the Bronx, are now to respond into Manhattan.' When those companies asked, where to respond to in Manhattan, the response was, respond into Manhattan and find someone to direct you. So most of the companies responded to ground zero. There they found out that a staging are was being set up at the Westside Dr. and Canal St. At this staging there was not anyone from FDNY that would take control or was in a position to take control. It was decided between some of the Westchester companies that the need to cover firehouses was more important then waiting to help at ground zero.

So off went a few companies to find firehouses in the area. There were Westchester County compainies that found empty houses, check in with the officer there who notified the Manhattan dispatcher of the M/A companies in that firehoues. They then covered calls for that house till well after midnight.

The Manhattan dispatcher might not have known exactly who was in the firehouse, just that an engine and ladder was there. The officer of the firehouse took ALL the info that might be needed to account for the people standing by at his firehouse.

Thanks for your excellent recounting Brother Marc.

[LTNRFD 266]

You guys did the best you could under extremely difficult circumstances. NOBODY is blaming 60-Control dispatchers.

I second that !!! If you ever get a chance to hear the audio from the Bronx CO to 60-Control, you will realize that even FDNY didn't know what they needed and where to send the units. They basically said send what ever you can spare. The dispatchers at 60 used their knowledge of the evolving situation and their experience to decide, based on what was available, what to send into N.Y.C.

[wraftery 1,275]

I second that !!! If you ever get a chance to hear the audio from the Bronx CO to 60-Control, you will realize that even FDNY didn't know what they needed and where to send the units. They basically said send what ever you can spare. The dispatchers at 60 used their knowledge of the evolving situation and their experience to decide, based on what was available, what to send into N.Y.C.

There is a motion on the floor and seconded.

All in favor of the 4 Dispatchers doing an OK job say AYE...the ayes have it...they did their best.

Just remember that you have at least 3 experienced officers saying exactly the same thing, that's more than 95% surety that's the way it went down

[Bnechis 3,961]

DES was not really "in sync" with 60 Control that morning, and it's unfair to make accusations towards 60 Control DISPATCHERS based on things we had no control over through no fault of our own. It's easy to blame dispatchers, who were only doing what they could with NO SOP to follow-including handling several other serious unrelated incidents in Westchester at the same time.

Again, it's unfair to blame the 4 dispatchers working 60 Control that day, including myself, who were victims of circumstance. DES had no plan, there was no SOP in Westchester, and to blame the dispatchers who were overwhelemed and had no protocol or plan to follow is not fair. We did our jobs to the best of our abilities, and to blame this whole thing on "the dispatchers" is just ignorant.

Seth your post just proved exactly what the original poster had stated. Spano took credit for DES actions on 9/11. Maybe there would be less issues if he only took credit for the action of county dispatchers.

You guys did the best you could under extremely difficult circumstances. NOBODY is blaming 60-Control dispatchers.

I agree that nobody is blaming the dispatchers. Thanks Capt.

[TL2L31 8]

I appreciate the members backing up my recollection of the radio that day. I'm going to expand a bit. The dispatcher also said words to the effect "all departments north of 287 respond to the Westchester Training Center."

I have no idea who went where initially, except for one rig. When we took our infamous bus ride to Ground Zero, there was a Westchester career department's rig hooked up to a hydrant, a few blocks north of the collapse zone on the West Side. The members working the rig looked exhausted.

Now; how do you think that rig got there? Do you think their Chief just decided to send apparatus to Ground Zero without orders or dispatch from someone? I highly doubt it.

The debate went on for many months as to what the "right" thing to have done that day would have been. If my chief had followed the directional from 60-control and sent us right to the World Trade Center (assuming the directive to respond "to Manhattan" meant just that), we would have done our duty and gone as ordered. Just as we did our duty, and did nothing regarding the original dispatch; as per Chief's orders; until the plan was evolved to relocate the rigs to the Bronx staging area.

Capt,Which dept was it? I was on a Rye rig witha career driver that kept getting waved in at every checkpoint until we were asked to help a few blocks north of the WTC. We hooked a hydrant at the MIllenium Hilton later that evening. I was in the back of the rig so I didnt hear every radio transmission on our way down.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I like the motion Bill made on the floor. If I might, I really didn't want to be involved in the crucst of this discussion; I feel like my role was so insignificant in the bigger picture of that day, I just got drawn into this discussion.

I'd like to thank Seth for the insight into what went on inside 60-Control that day. We always appreciated the job that 60-Control did, for the years of 24 hour coverage, the assistance, I could go on but everyone here knows what I'm saying.

Thanks again brothers.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Capt,Which dept was it? I was on a Rye rig witha career driver that kept getting waved in at every checkpoint until we were asked to help a few blocks north of the WTC. We hooked a hydrant at the MIllenium Hilton later that evening. I was in the back of the rig so I didnt hear every radio transmission on our way down.

Good job. I have no idea about the rest of it, I've said all I can on this matter. Stay safe.

[grumpyff 1,159]

The tranmission was for certain units to respond to a staging area in Manhattan, to again, backfill as requested by the Bronx CO-who were overwhelmed themselves with good reason. I remember calling Yonkers FD dispatch and a couple of other southern Westchester career departments and asking them to send units to that staging area, knowing that they were at the time probaly the best resource to send to that location. To the best of my recollection, no units were told to go to Ground Zero and work- I remember watching the news that afternoon and being frusterated seeing select departments at Ground Zero. The staging areas were changed several times by FDNY, and the resources they needed changed by the minute.

The incident was a cluster on so many levels, but blaming the 4 initial dispatchers themselves who were doing the best they could given the complexity and size of the incident without a single protocol or a unified command is absolutely ridiculous. It was not an easy task.

Seth,

No one is blaming the dispatchers at 60-Control. You guys did the best you could in an overwhelming situation. The FDNY, NYPD and EMS were in chaos at the time, add in departments from all over wanting to help in some way, it definitely was not an easy task.

As a example of the chaos in the NYPD, I was off-duty an directed to report to the 50. Pct. Once I got there, they had no clue what to do with the 5 of us that showed up so we were out in a van and brought to the Bronx boro command, the 48 Pct IIRC. They had no clue either so we were sent back to the 50 and directed to take our personal cars to the Outdoor Range at Rodmans Neck. From there we boarded city buses to our commands. I left my house at 1000 and finally got to my command at west 42 st and 8 Avenue at 1930 hours. At that point they still had no clue who or how many police officers were missing, or where to assign us.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Capt,Which dept was it? I was on a Rye rig witha career driver that kept getting waved in at every checkpoint until we were asked to help a few blocks north of the WTC. We hooked a hydrant at the MIllenium Hilton later that evening. I was in the back of the rig so I didnt hear every radio transmission on our way down.

Excuse me I misunderstood your question. The rig I saw at ground zero, to the best of my recollection, was Greenville FD.

~exiting....stage right.....

[yfd910 8]

Seth,

Redundant as it may be at this point, I have to back up EFDCAPT115.....60 Control most certainly did tone out for Departments to respond to Manhattan that day. I was working on Eastchester's E31 and EFDCAPT115 was the Captain that day.....the only thing I remember hearing on the initial dispatch tones, and I'm going to say they came in around 10-10:15am, were for 'All Career Departments south of 287 are to respond to Manhattan, all other Departments north of 287 are to respond to the Westchester County Fire Training Center to back-fill for the Career Departments'. Any tones after that I might not have heard as we were out gathering supplies and fueling the rigs, or we were already in the Bronx and out of the rigs. That's what I remember specifically hearing, 8 years later......

That's what was most surprising about getting to E63/Batt15 on 233rd and seeing so many Northern Westchester County Dept's there......and I won't even get into the nonsense that went on that day down at that firehouse and out on the street as EFDCAPT115 has already touched on it.........oh, and at the Raceway later on that night.......

Who authorized that is beyond me......and I'm not blaming 60-Control for anything, just stating what I remember....

[Remember585 815]

Not that it really matters, but I thought the message I heard was (to the effect of), "All Westchester departments below 287 are to respond to Manhattan, and all departments north of 287 are to report to the Bronx for assignment." I was in the Officer's seat of our Rescue, trying to help my driver use the cell phone to get in touch with his wife, who was working downtown that day, so it might be a foggy recollection.

[x635 4,066]

I'll admit...there was a lot going on that day.....maybe one of the County cars transmitted it......but all I know is with the information I had units were to respond to specific staging points and that's what I relayed.....I'm not sure if I was on the radio much giving direction, as I spent a lot of time on the phone with the Bronx CO trying to help them out with what they needed and relaying that to everyone else. I completly believe what you guys said and heard, I just don't recall it being said.

It really doesn't matter now, though. I think the important point that Chief Fitz made is that nothing major has really changed in Westchester. All the accomplishments that Spano touts, nothing really has to do with 60 Control (the dispatch agency, NOT DES). Sure, they got a fieldcom and some better staffing and bosses, but has Westchester County expandaded and modernized 60 Control to meet the current needs of the County? Or is that building they purchased 10 years ago for that now just a general supply warehouse for the county? Has the pay been increased to a realistic level for dispatchers in this day and age? Have they increased dispatch staffing?

Departments like Yonkers, New Rochelle, Eastchester, Greenville and White Plains to name a few have really taken the lead post 9/11 to prepare for future situations. Some of their concepts have even been adopted nationally. Most of Westchester DES's "OEM"'s concern is with Indian Point. Does 60 Control have SOP's now to deal with something like 9/11? (that is a question)