Comptroller charges Nyack fire officials saddled taxpayers with $13 million firehouse they don’t own

[jfmuller 23]

Comptroller charges Nyack fire officials saddled taxpayers with $13 million firehouse they don’t own

Was this done to get around Wicks Law and backfire? Who is the non-profit that purchased the property and owns the Firehouse? The fire company?

Article is short on information.

[helicopper 1,050]

The full Comptroller's report is available here: http://www.osc.state.ny.us/localgov/audits/firedists/2009/nyack.pdf

[x635 4,066]

Has this firehouse even been built yet?

Will it consolidate all the Nyack fire companies into one firehouse?

[res6cue 67]

The firehouse was completed and occupied by the summer of 2006. They are talking about 10-100, the Park St house, quarters of Jackson Engine and the Fire Patrol. The house also serves as the Dept/District HQ.

Consolidate all eight companies under one roof? You must not be familiar with the area they cover if you're asking that question. It wouldn't be very realistic to consolidate just the six companies in the heart of the village, much less bringing Empire H&L in Upper Nyack and Orangetown Engine in South Nyack into the discussion.

Edited December 29, 2009 by res6cue

[dadbo46 50]

Did counsel advise the village on this ? Seems remarkable that they got the house constructed and legal counsel did not raise a red flag.

[res6cue 67]

You guys need to read the PDF file Chris linked if you're truly interested in this story, as it contains the answers you guys seek.

[RocklandFires 44]

This is the firehouse in question.

[RocklandFires 44]

Nyack's Other Firehouses

[dadbo46 50]

You guys need to read the PDF file Chris linked if you're truly interested in this story, as it contains the answers you guys seek.

My bad. I only read the executive summary.

Apparently, there was legal counsel and the "out of the box" advice was wrong.

Edited December 29, 2009 by dadbo46

[x635 4,066]

Consolidate all eight companies under one roof? You must not be familiar with the area they cover if you're asking that question.

Exactly. Which is why I asked the question. I know Nyack had some older and smaller firehouses and was just wondering what companies were going to be put there. Now I'm curious, even though Nyack has some beautiful and historic firehouses in the heart of the village, why would it be unrealistic to consolidate companies so close to each other? Traffic or the tight streets? I can understand the outlying companies- I actually thought Upper Nyack was a seperate department.

Was this the firehouse that was off the thruway exit adjacent to the DPW yard? Also, what apparatus is currently housed there? (Is that where the Green Hahn and Pierce Quantum tiller are?)

RocklandFires, thanks for the awesome photos!

[res6cue 67]

The new firehouse was built on the site of the old firehouse, nothing was changed. Same apparatus housed there, Jackson Engine's 1995 KME "10-1500" and the Fire Patrol's 1990 Saulsbury "10-Rescue", as well as the district van "10-Patrol"

This station is not near the Thruway, you're probably thinking of the Catherine St firehouse (Chelsea H&L's 1999 Pierce Quantum TDA "10-99" and Jackson Hose's 1984 Hahn "10-1001") which is near the High Ave entrance to the Thruway NB.

Check the map of Rockland firehouses I made for the location of their firehouses. I can't speak for the Nyack FD, but the layout of the streets and the traffic patterns would make for a pretty congested response if you tried to house six companies in the same building. The six companies in the heart of the village (1 TDA, 4 pumpers, 1 rescue) are housed in four firehouses. Mazeppa Engine and Highland Hose are each housed in their own buildings, the other four companies are paired up in two firehouses as I've detailed above.

http://signal-12.com/map.htm

Edited December 29, 2009 by res6cue

[Doc 11]

The comptroller's office is evidently angry that they were beat at their own game. Only state agencies can concoct such an "out of the box" plan. Wick's Law exists for a reason - anybody who's been involved in a construction project under the confines of Wick's Law knows this and is stronger for surviving it. It is regrettable that no congressmen or state legislators can tout this project as a personal success during their next campaign. It is also unfortunate that the project wasn't awarded to the proper contractors with the necessary political connection and campaign donation records. Indeed, the people of Nyack will suffer the consequences of a fire department operating within an uncondemned, safe structure, no doubt completed ahead of schedule and without various contractor bankruptcies, abandonment and residual lawsuits that make this nation strong. God save us all.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Nyack is not unlike many, many older East coast volunteer depts. where there are many firehouses, some around the block from one another. This exists in part from the formation of the towns themselves and the fire departments way back when. The center of town needed the fire protection and companies would form, rivalries were heated and individual companies would form to "compete" with each other where the "action" was...the center of town with the most structures. As towns grew and areas were built up other companies would form to protect these new areas, so you look on a map and there is a cluster of houses in the center of town, then other stations near the borders and outlaying areas of the districts.

Another thing to note in many cases these houses are owned by the individual companies. My dept. is like Nyack, 7 stations, 4 are owned by the individual companies, you cant just close them down, especially without an uproar from the residents in the area, it's not easy to close down a firehouse that has been in a neighborhood for 100 years.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

This is the station as it looked before circa 2002 or so...

[IzzyEng4 427]

There was no question that the old central firehouse where Jackson Engine and the Fire Patrol (and many years before that Jackson Hose was there too) needed to be replaced. Just sad to see this come about this way after the building was desperately needed. Hope everything works out.

I'm fond of Nyack as I spent a lot of time there since my ex live just up the road a bit. But I can also relate to it as it is similar to my home town. Its one of those old east coast areas where the roads were narrow cart paths and buildings were build close, if not on top of each other. When paving came about, the streets couldn't be widen mainly because of where all the buildings were build along the roadside.

Also if you look at the older firehouses like Mazzapa's, Highland's, Empire H & L (in Upper Nyack) and even the location where central station is, you can tell they were there during the days when men were men pulling their rigs some great distance, being tired as all heck then having to battle a fire. If anyone has evere done a carriage run or pumped an old hand pumper, then you know what I'm talking about. Even with horses, you needed to rest them since they could only go so far! Same reason why the N.J.F.D. (Nyack Joint Fire District) has two TDAs for aerial ladders.

I hope things work out.

[firefighter36 52]

Joe, thanks for the background of Nyack FD. A question just popped into my mind. Now that the brothers aren't pulling their rigs or using horses, are the firehouse locations practical or compliant with NFPA standards? How about the quantity and location of apparatus? Does it reflect the needs of the area? I'll be the first to admit I am not familiar with the lay of the land, the companies, stations, etc. Also, what is the community's ISO rating?

As far as the building goes, it is foolish for the FD to not own the building, and while they may have been in dire need of a station, the law is the law. I have heard of other FDs who lease fire stations from their fire companies, and these leases are among the highest per sq. ft leases for commercial space in the area. Is that in the best public interest?

I am all for fire stations, outfitting fire departments with the best, advanced, practical equipment possible, and right apparatus. This can and should only be accomplished within the bounds of the law, and the national standards we should be following.

Edited December 29, 2009 by mbendel36

[JetPhoto 626]

The firehouse in question was (I believe) the host of the parade held in 2006. I remember picking up trophy's out front. It has a lovely view of a restaurant Chinese I believe.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Now that the brothers aren't pulling their rigs or using horses, are the firehouse locations practical or compliant with NFPA standards? How about the quantity and location of apparatus? Does it reflect the needs of the area? I'll be the first to admit I am not familiar with the lay of the land, the companies, stations, etc. Also, what is the community's ISO rating?

Thanks to the strong lobbying efforts of both the IAFF and the volunteer fire service (with a special notice of FASNY as the lead in this issue) NFPA has 2 different standards that address this:

NFPA 1710 for career depts requires minimum response times which limits the distance by 4 minutes drive time for the 1st due engine and 8 minutes for the rest of the 1st alarm assignment.

NFPA 1720 for VFD's lets the locals determine what they need.

ISO considers any property beyond 5 miles drive istance to be unprotected. Their standard calls for engines companies within 1.5 miles of all properties and ladders within 2.5 miles. Beyond the 1.5 & 2.5 they prorate the department based on % beyond those distances.

As far as the building goes, it is foolish for the FD to not own the building, and while they may have been in dire need of a station, the law is the law. I have heard of other FDs who lease fire stations from their fire companies, and these leases are among the highest per sq. ft leases for commercial space in the area. Is that in the best public interest?

Agreed, this is one of the questions the the Comptroller was concerned with, what happens if the owner (this so called illegaly set up not for profit) no longer wants to rent it to the FD after 10 years? What happens if the principals are sued over this by an angry tax payer?

I am all for fire stations, outfitting fire departments with the best, advanced, practical equipment possible, and right apparatus. This can and should only be accomplished within the bounds of the law, and the national standards we should be following.

The report also mentions that the fire commisioners failed to meet other legal requirments, including mandatory training and purchasing in general.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I see nothing wrong with having multiple firehouses with individual companies operating in a close area. FDNY even has some stations in very close proximity to each other and look what happens every time the city tries to close a house, the community stands by their firehouse.

For the most part Departments like this are very large in membership and very active, as well as having loyal support from their communities. One exception I can think of off the top of my head is the city of Hudson VFD. They to had many single company firehouses close to each other, they consolidated 3 or 4 stations into one large building for other reasons...like ALL the buildings had become very very unsafe and to small for the newer rigs plus the membership in the companies dwindled down to almost nothing. Consolidating was a good idea for them. Nyack is a very active Dept. and the system they have works well for them, the issue is the building...not how many stations they have or apparatus. I dont know any other all volunteer dept. running 2 tiller rigs, that should speak about their active membership.

Hey if it could happen Id like a firehouse on every other street!!!

[x635 4,066]

spin_the_wheel, thanks for that interesting perspective. Just out of curiosity, I always assumed that the older firehouses were always built near the population centers, and with regard that the apparatus of the time could not travel as fast to a scene with the same equipment as modern apparatus can (especially horse drawn units or hose carts, etc).

After the war when suburban sprawl started, these outlying stations were built.

Is any of that part of it? This has nothing to do with Nyack FD as they are a very unique community, just my curiousity.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I guess it will depend on how old the area and Fire dept. is, Nyack is a very old Dept. with companies close to 150 years old, I think they were built more near the center of the "town" so to speak, homes were spread out more with more property, separating them, but were in the vicinity of the center of town.. It paid to protect the commercial interests. My Depts. first 3 stations were built around the School, Hotel, stores, post office and Belmont Race Track, August Belmont actually helped fund 2 of the first 3 companies, (see Firehouse magazine Aug.2009 for more history of how we protect the race track) After the main "town" area were homes and farms on large parcels of land. And then as you say when other areas began to develop other Firehouses/companies were built to protect these areas. But in general I think the oldest part of these towns would have the biggest cluster of close firehouses/companies.

Edited December 30, 2009 by spin_the_wheel

[ny10570 745]

Just because FDNY does or doesn't do something, doesn't make it right. I don't think anyone could argue FDNY and most NE communities wouldn't benefit from redistributing fire houses to better suit changes on last 10, 50, or even 100 years.

[dadbo46 50]

From today's Journal News:

State questions Nyack firehouse financing

Khurram Saeed

ksaeed@lohud.com

NYACK — Debate has been reignited about how the newest firehouse in the village was funded and whether taxpayers own it

http://www.lohud.com/article/20100103/NEWS03/1030377/State-questions-Nyack-firehouse-financing

[IzzyEng4 427]

Just because FDNY does or doesn't do something, doesn't make it right. I don't think anyone could argue FDNY and most NE communities wouldn't benefit from redistributing fire houses to better suit changes on last 10, 50, or even 100 years.

But I'm gonna throw a "devil's advocate" question back at you. In the mind set of communities and politicians which is easier and most cost effective, to replace several buildings with a larger one that would cost millions of dollars trying to find a good central building lot possibly having to go through eminent domain since there is a crunch for space or retrofit an existing building that is already still in excellent shape, in a central location and falls with in the standard ISO requirements? See where I'm getting at?

Don't get me wrong NY, I agree with you comments of benefiting from re-distribution but sometimes it is not feasible.

[firefighter36 52]

I wouldn't blame the separate fire companies, or brothers on the line here. All too often, all of us "street-level bureaucrats" have to bear the burden and consequences of the decision-makers, commissioners' and politicians' choices and actions. In a fire district, the level of service is determined by the Board of Fire Commissioners. These commissioners are publicly elected officials whose actions are governed by NYS law. Such actions could reasonably include providing for a building for the purpose of housing staff (career or volunteer) and equipment. among others. There are laws surrounding how buildings are to be built and purchases are to be made for a reason.

Anyone who has looked at real estate from a financial perspective knows that it is oftentimes more advantageous financially to buy a home rather than rent. Why should the Fire District do differently? Not only is it the responsible thing to do, It's the law.

Of course, we could only hope that commissioners will find it logical to meet NFPA and ISO standards as can be reasonably applied within their jurisdiction (NYS is big on Authority Having Jurisdiction.) Ultimately at budget time, there has to be a bottom line, and how that bottom line is met, within the confines of the various laws empowering fire districts, while meeting the recognized operational standards is the challenging part of a fire commissioner's job, but it is their job nonetheless. It will be interesting to see what happens..