The public is watching

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Let me first preface by saying that I'm the son of a 20+ year tradesman, a Fire Science college Junior, and hopefully a future fire or police academy student.

There seems to be some big stigma by the more "traditionalist" members of emergency services against those who have college degrees... why? Whats to say someone who graduates college doesn't know how to work with their hands or doesn't have any discipline?

The military is great, I almost enlisted myself right out of high school, but to be honest, it just doesn't work for some people. For example, I wanted to enlist as a firefighter in the Air Force, but the recruiter told me I had to pick 4 different jobs and I would be guaranteed one of the four. That's when I got up and walked out of his office. I have great respect for anyone in the military, but letting someone else choose what I do for the four years is not whats best for my career. For some people the military is best for their career, and thats outstanding.

Tradespeople are obviously useful in the fire service. Knowing concepts of building construction and mechanics are absolutely important and is great to have on the fireground. But at the same time the training as a tradesman does not provide any additional career building skills.

A college education in fire science or criminal justice is great. You get an understanding of the basic laws and principles of the field and training in areas such as building construction, fire protection systems, incident command/management, public administration (budgeting/grant writing, etc,) HAZMAT/Chemistry, fire investigation and hydraulics/water supply. All important areas in a modern fire department. But OF COURSE, most college programs provide very little practical "in-the-field" training that can NEVER be duplicated so the experience of a graduate is all theoretical unless they join a department as a volunteer to learn the hands-on skills needed. These degrees also include alot of "core" classes forced on by the Universities about things totally unrelated to the career path, but this is for the purpose of making students a better rounded individual as a whole. Also, I've found that most departments look for college graduates in general, not giving preference to those with degrees in their specific field, this is so the department can say "X% of our officers are college graduates, look how professional we are!" B.S.... just because you graduated doesn't make you professional, having a team of qualified, educated, experienced personnel is what makes you a TRUELY professional organization.

So whats my point? My point is that firefighters, police officers and EMS personnel should come from ALL THREE of these backgrounds. Having a company or shift with college graduates, military veterans, and tradesmen all provide different backgrounds of experience that make your organization more capable of having an all-hazards approach that is so important today, when duties are simply piled upon the emergency services field by politicians and government. Its important not to just take tradesmen, veterans or graduates just for the sake of tradition or because they are there, but because it would better build the repertoire of your agency and give you the widest range of experience to draw from as a Chief/administrator.

[FirNaTine 370]

Let me first preface by saying that I'm the son of a 20+ year tradesman, a Fire Science college Junior, and hopefully a future fire or police academy student.

There seems to be some big stigma by the more "traditionalist" members of emergency services against those who have college degrees... why? Whats to say someone who graduates college doesn't know how to work with their hands or doesn't have any discipline?

The military is great, I almost enlisted myself right out of high school, but to be honest, it just doesn't work for some people. For example, I wanted to enlist as a firefighter in the Air Force, but the recruiter told me I had to pick 4 different jobs and I would be guaranteed one of the four. That's when I got up and walked out of his office. I have great respect for anyone in the military, but letting someone else choose what I do for the four years is not whats best for my career. For some people the military is best for their career, and thats outstanding.

Tradespeople are obviously useful in the fire service. Knowing concepts of building construction and mechanics are absolutely important and is great to have on the fireground. But at the same time the training as a tradesman does not provide any additional career building skills.

A college education in fire science or criminal justice is great. You get an understanding of the basic laws and principles of the field and training in areas such as building construction, fire protection systems, incident command/management, public administration (budgeting/grant writing, etc,) HAZMAT/Chemistry, fire investigation and hydraulics/water supply. All important areas in a modern fire department. But OF COURSE, most college programs provide very little practical "in-the-field" training that can NEVER be duplicated so the experience of a graduate is all theoretical unless they join a department as a volunteer to learn the hands-on skills needed. These degrees also include alot of "core" classes forced on by the Universities about things totally unrelated to the career path, but this is for the purpose of making students a better rounded individual as a whole. Also, I've found that most departments look for college graduates in general, not giving preference to those with degrees in their specific field, this is so the department can say "X% of our officers are college graduates, look how professional we are!" B.S.... just because you graduated doesn't make you professional, having a team of qualified, educated, experienced personnel is what makes you a TRUELY professional organization.

So whats my point? My point is that firefighters, police officers and EMS personnel should come from ALL THREE of these backgrounds. Having a company or shift with college graduates, military veterans, and tradesmen all provide different backgrounds of experience that make your organization more capable of having an all-hazards approach that is so important today, when duties are simply piled upon the emergency services field by politicians and government. Its important not to just take tradesmen, veterans or graduates just for the sake of tradition or because they are there, but because it would better build the repertoire of your agency and give you the widest range of experience to draw from as a Chief/administrator.

Put 25 yrs in the Fire Service son and then let me know if you still believe all your rhetoric. I'm talking from 1st hand experience working in a Dept. that sees more then its fare share of fire duty. Going to Fire Science College and taking the same courses you're going to receive in the Academy and be offered throughout your career on the federal and state level is completely different then taking your regular academic courses.Can you please tell me how majoring in Economics, Bus.Law, Accounting, History, Marketing, etc.etc. is going to prepare one for the Fire Service and make you a better firefighter or Officer?

Edited December 21, 2009 by FirNaTine

[JBE 328]

How bout this?? WATCH WHAT YOU SAY, WATCH WHAT YOU DO!! We are ALL public servants, regardless of where we came from, how much school we went to, or where we work. We are held to a higher standard, sometimes unfairly, but we are held to a higher standard nonetheless. So what if the guy got 8 plus hours of OT standing around. HE'S DOING HIS JOB!!!! He is protecting the city in which he works. I'd rather he was standing on that street corner, instead of having to chase some skell down a dark alley. I score 12 hours of OT sitting on my duff. So what?? I'm doing my job. We know that, the folks we work with know that. The public doesn't. I know, I'm notorious for putting work related stuff on my Facebook. Usually complaining about the really crappy commute to 11Metro Tech. But, I am sure as hell thankful I got a job.

Bottom line here kids. The public, educated or not, is ignorant when it comes to what goes on in the Emergency Services Sector. They don't know much, if anything that goes on in that radio car, bus, or behind those big red doors. We gotta be a little smarter. Soapbox 10-9. Thank you.

[antiquefirelt 994]

How bout this?? WATCH WHAT YOU SAY, WATCH WHAT YOU DO!! We are ALL public servants, regardless of where we came from, how much school we went to, or where we work. We are held to a higher standard, sometimes unfairly, but we are held to a higher standard nonetheless.

Bottom line here kids. The public, educated or not, is ignorant when it comes to what goes on in the Emergency Services Sector. They don't know much, if anything that goes on in that radio car, bus, or behind those big red doors. We gotta be a little smarter. Soapbox 10-9. Thank you.

It's only going to get worse. Facebook, Twitter, Myspace and the like has turned things that used to be behind closed doors into public forums. I predict all the firehouse dramas will only be far worse and damaging in the future due to the explosion of technology.

[Guest bigal8]

So formal education is useless for firefighters? So is it also useless for soldiers? What about our top military brass who have graduate degrees from top universities like Harvard and Georgetown?

[antiquefirelt 994]

So formal education is useless for firefighters? So is it also useless for soldiers? What about our top military brass who have graduate degrees from top universities like Harvard and Georgetown?

I don't think anyone really is saying that. The issue is blind faith in either career tract. This job, not unlike the military takes more than book smarts. All of the knowledge in the world won't help without the ability to make decisions rapidly and without all the variables. It also takes know the difference between theory and what works. They can't teach sounds and smells in a classroom, yet sometimes these are our best indicators. Conversely, you can take someone with very little education and make them a great firefighter if they have motivation. Probably not climbing high on the promotional ladder, but they can do the job well. Without a doubt well rounded individuals have a better chance of excelling. Those who have gone through college likely have better study habits (but not all) and have a system for themselves how to attain knowledge in a certain area they lack it in. To rise to the top it very often takes peers and subordinates assistance. Few company officers exceed when their company thinks they stink. So people skills, the ability to pass on knowledge and their trust is a key factor in your career path.

As I've said before, our FD has no requirement for any degrees, though the city admin is usually pretty hung up on them for the top slot (well at the one time in 14 years we've had a Chief leave). Those that have degrees don't standout in any way I have seen in my time, other than payday. A few have actual fire science degrees and don't seem to be any better at hydraulics, tactics, building construction or any specific topic than those who've learned these things in-house/in the field.

I'm not trying to discourage higher education as those who have it are closer to being "well rounded" than someone who has to start taking classes while working (it's a B**** trust me). But your degree means little in the field, where you'll need to prove your mettle.

[helicopper 1,050]

So formal education is useless for firefighters? So is it also useless for soldiers? What about our top military brass who have graduate degrees from top universities like Harvard and Georgetown?

And their undergraduate degrees from one of the most prestigious schools in the United States... that's right West Point!

[ny10570 745]

You're talking about a formal education that is directed at some form of their job. These aren't soldiers with a Phd in philosophy. Going for an undergrad, make sure it applies to your career. My biochem education is nearly useless in law enforcement and only somewhat helpful as a paramedic. Trades however tend to be more directly applicable to our careers.

[CountryGrl1 0]

ok, so after reading the posts, it's amazing how this is who can pee farther than the other, WE ARE ALL ONE !!!! If I go to an EDP I want to know that the police have my back and if I pull up on a working structure fire, I want to know that the FD is there for us too. I'm in EMS and I will be there for the police and fire too.I'm not going to stop and ask what degree do you have?? We all either passed tests, both written and practicals to be in our positions. So lets just let this go! We all have to watch out for one another.

Because we are the ones who really know what stress levels really go with the job. We can be sleeping, eating, whatever but when the bell, pager or radio go off we are off and going to do our jobs without a moments hessitation. We get paid to be on call , and perform when needed.

So to all of you stay safe, and cover each other's asses.

[antiquefirelt 994]

You're talking about a formal education that is directed at some form of their job. These aren't soldiers with a Phd in philosophy. Going for an undergrad, make sure it applies to your career. My biochem education is nearly useless in law enforcement and only somewhat helpful as a paramedic. Trades however tend to be more directly applicable to our careers.

Well said. I'll admit that as the Union President I argued with the City over stipends for degrees. We of course were trying to get money for them and used the point that while a degree in the related field was likely most beneficial, the core coursework required of all degree programs tends to be where you see the most benefit.

Those with degrees tend to be better at writing letters, memos, after action reports and position papers. While few of these are requisite of line firefighters, as they move up in the ranks, some of this becomes more obvious. This is where we see benefits of Fire Science and paramedicine degrees, not in the field. And I would not trade this benefit for field experience as that's primarily what we are paid to do. A nice well written after actin report detailing the events leading to a failed rescue is not as good a as a poorly written success story.

In the end our people get stipends for any AS, BS or MS regardless of field of study. They also are reimbursed for up to 6 credit hours per semester if they pass with a 3.0 or better grade. But in hiring, it's nearly a non-issue, most people rarely fit into the "all other things being equal" that would make a degree a factor.

There is nothing bad about education, but it's not the only factor. While we're trying to elevate the FS to another level, it's still primarily a blue collar hands on job, that will not require any post secondary education.

[Guest Firediver]

Bottom line is WE as a whole (FD,PD,EMS) do not need to re-assure John Q. public of something most of them assume we do anyway.....NOTHING. WE know how it really goes down some tours and should keep it that way. I believe thats what "The Pot Stirrer" was getting at in his post, nothing more. I know of an individual who posted on his account (facebook or otherwise) that he was going to sleep from 2-4pm! WTF?! I would like to believe everyone has meet the MINIMUM standards to be hired by civil service, as for the degrees............thats how I measure temperature.LOL Enjoy the Holidays

Edited December 23, 2009 by Firediver

[lad12derff 283]

Bottom line is WE as a whole (FD,PD,EMS) do not need to re-assure John Q. public of something most of them assume we do anyway.....NOTHING. WE know how it really goes down some tours and should keep it that way. I believe thats what "The Pot Stirrer" was getting at in his post, nothing more. I know of an individual who posted on his account (facebook or otherwise) that he was going to sleep from 2-4pm! WTF?! I would like to believe everyone has meet the MINIMUM standards to be hired by civil service, as for the degrees............thats how I measure temperature.LOL Enjoy the Holidays

Thank you Firediver for being 1 of the few who understand me. I guess working together for the last 10 helps. Merry Christmas Brother and I look forward to your speedy return.

The DERFF