NYPost: "EMT's on break let pregnant mom die"

[INIT915 1,119]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/emt_duo_on_break_let_preg_mom_die_mrj8Jv8kjmS0Z3FNO4DmiL

A pregnant Brooklyn woman suffering a fatal seizure in a coffee shop in the shadow of FDNY Headquarters was ignored by two callous city medics who continued to buy their breakfast, eyewitnesses told The Post.

"The EMTs just said we had to call 911. They got their bagels and left," said a disgusted worker.

[jack10562 414]

WOW. That's some story! When seconds count, help is only minutes away.

[mmwolf65 1]

Ouch

[tonistarks 0]

Sounds like it may have been dispatch on there breaks, still completely unacceptable.

[INIT915 1,119]

WOW. That's some story! When seconds count, help is only minutes away.

Not even "minutes". It sounds like they were literally only feet away, inside the same deli as the victim.

[x635 4,066]

Here in Texas, they'd be arrested for failure to render aid, probaly immediately. THEY could have AT LEAST still called 911 and stayed with the patient.

I know how the NY Post significantly slants stories though, so this situation could have been totally different from what was reported.

[BFD2553 75]

Here in Texas, they'd be arrested for failure to render aid, probaly immediately. THEY could have AT LEAST still called 911 and stayed with the patient.

I know how the NY Post significantly slants stories though, so this situation could have been totally different from what was reported.

What happened to "Duty To Act" here???

[IzzyEng4 427]

Wait do I hear that "N" word coming????????

NEGLIGENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ny10570 745]

The Post can't totally off base. Two members of EMS were in the store around the time this woman fell ill and they are now restricted from patient care. The investigation is looking at what was and wasn't done on several levels including why the BLS took 11 minutes, why no ALS, and what if any equipment the voluntary unit was missing.

One other thing, the Post is an anti-labor rag that is better used as landfill than a media outlet.

Edited December 21, 2009 by ny10570

[mikerabbit 2]

Im sure there is a lot more to the story, let remember who comes first? Providers and scene saftey, the whole scene could have been chaotic with people yelling and threatening the EMS providers. Lets not jump to conclusions.

[helicopper 1,050]

Im sure there is a lot more to the story, let remember who comes first? Providers and scene saftey, the whole scene could have been chaotic with people yelling and threatening the EMS providers. Lets not jump to conclusions.

You're absolutely right that there's more to the story but let's be real, do you think scene safety was the issue? This is a place in Metrotech and the two being investigated waited around for the orders before leaving. Doesn't strike me as a hostile environment - unless they were out of decaf!!!

This is a horrible situation for all involved and we should wait for the investigations to be completed before rushing to judgment.

[JBE 328]

Did they have any equipment to render aid?? Did they at least call upstairs to the dispatch office and get a bus over there?? What aid could they have rendered?? I'm not taking sides here, but I honestly think these two, no matter what their defense may be, will be, and should be hung out to dry. Then, we wait for the city to pay out a few million in hush money to the family. PS, the Post used to be a decent read. The Daily News is also turning into a rag as well.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

According to this article in the NYPost, the EMTs were working as dispatchers, not as first responders apparently

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/mike_rips_emts_in_preg_mom_death_5d0UDQYANcSrLDN4ZnqitI

[gklein4 18]

No matter what really happened this incident now gives a black eye to all that do their job's correctly because as the saying goes " When you are good no one cares But when you are Bad everyone cares" Myself I will wait until all the facts come out before passing Judgment.

[jaf 0]

To stand there in uniform and complete your bagel order while someone in the same shop is need of assistance shows either stupidity almost beyond belief. Even if they had nothing and knew nothing they should have had the sense to at least attempt to help. If they had they would be cited as heroes now instead of literally being villified around the whole world. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. There is nothing else to say.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Im sure there is a lot more to the story, let remember who comes first? Providers and scene saftey, the whole scene could have been chaotic with people yelling and threatening the EMS providers. Lets not jump to conclusions.

Comments like this make me think a lot of FD's are right to not sell or allow their uniforms to non-department personnel. This is why the fire service is becoming what it is.

As a trained person who can render aid, how do you stand back and do nothing? Even if they were mistaken for EMS, if they have any uniform of an emergency provider they should be obligated to render whatever aid they can. If this is just updating 911 via telephone so be it, maybe it's taking control of the chaotic scene, which can be done in most cases short of weapons play, It sounds to me like the chaos was caused by these two refusing to act. Cowardice and a disgusting display of the type of people who should not be employed by any emergency service.We may not have the whole story, but given any part of this is true, it's pathetic.

[OnTheWheel 43]

Article said they were trained medics working as dispatchers. I don't care what "hat" they were wearing that day. Take a knee, get on the floor with the patient, do everything you possibly can with or without equipment. They apparently walked out too? These two should be locked up and do some time. Unacceptable and criminal if you ask me!

To go along with antiquefirelt's post that's why "scrubs" should be worn sparingly as well. A lot of people associate them with nurses, but everyone wears them these days!

Edited December 22, 2009 by OnTheWheel

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I am going to first state that I am not an expert in this at all but I did a little digging. I googled "NYS duty to act" and got this document.

http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/ems/pdf/98-05.pdf

Granted, it is a few years old but here are two things that I got out of it.

1) "NYS statutes do not obligate an individual citizen, regardless of training, to respond to a situation or provide care unless there is a formal duty by job description or role expectation. Such a duty to act arises from participation with an agency having jurisdiction."

2) "Pursuant to the provisions of Public Health Law, the individual having the highest level of prehospital certification and who is responding with authority (1), “has a duty to act” and therefore is responsible (2) for providing and/or directing emergency medical care and the transportation of a patient. Such care and direction shall be in accordance with all NYS standards of training, applicable State and Regional protocols and may be provided under direct medical control."

(1) Certified persons have NO authority or responsibility to respond independently. In NY there is no duty to act as an individual citizen, regardless of certification or licensure. Individuals may respond only as a part of an authorized agency’s response system and within an EMS system.

(2) Having an obligation, Webster’s II New Riverside Dictionary, 1984

If both of these are still true and accepted policy then nothing illegal, criminal or negligent was done in this situation. Moral obligation aside, it would appear to me, after reading this document, that the Dispatchers/EMT's in question did not have a duty to act. Again, I am not an expert, and I do not really know, this is just what I found with some basic research that all parties in this incident will be forced to do as well.

Edited December 23, 2009 by bvfdjc316

[v85 212]

I think the question, at least legally, would then become does the fact that they were in EMT/Medic uniforms and employees of the FDNY satisfy the "role expectation" and "participation with an agency..." wording.

I don't know the answer because I am not a lawyer, but on the face of it, this case feels very different than a case where a medic was off duty and driving on vacation with his children and decided not to stop at an MVA, a case where the medic is clearly not participating with an agency having jurisdiction and thus has no binding job description or role expectation.

What do you think?

[BFD2553 75]

I think the question, at least legally, would then become does the fact that they were in EMT/Medic uniforms and employees of the FDNY satisfy the "role expectation" and "participation with an agency..." wording.

I don't know the answer because I am not a lawyer, but on the face of it, this case feels very different than a case where a medic was off duty and driving on vacation with his children and decided not to stop at an MVA, a case where the medic is clearly not participating with an agency having jurisdiction and thus has no binding job description or role expectation.

What do you think?

From an article by the Associated Press...

"All of our members are qualified to make that initial assessment and in some cases, start medical care," said Robert Ungar, spokesman for the Uniformed EMTS and Paramedics, FDNY.

"Being dispatchers is not a defense" for inaction, he said.

A FDNY spokesman said all members take an oath to help others whenever emergency medical care is needed.

Department spokesman Jeffrey Hammond said, "The charges are appalling and the Department is vigorously investigating both EMTs."

The Fire Department has suspended Green and Jackson without pay.

Any questions?

Edited December 23, 2009 by BFD2553

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Does that mean at all times both on (obviously) and off (not so obvious) duty?

What is the actual language of the oath?

Edited December 23, 2009 by bvfdjc316

[Goose 188]

The problem here is that they were wearing a uniform and on city time and they did nothing. If they were in street clothes and off of work, you can't blame them as there is no obligation - just as there is no obligation for me, or any of us, to stop at a car accident. When you are uniformed you may as well be an agent of whatever authority you represent.

When you're eclamptic to the point of seizing there is not much that can be done from the BLS perspective, let alone without gear. But, at the very least, someone should have called 911 and the other person at least give the illusion that he/she was making a concerted best effort for the patient. Clear the area of any potential hazards and unnecessary bystanders and do what you can when she stops seizing...

The job probably got sent out as a routine seizure or OB call which is BLS in the city..

Crummy situation all around...

[jaf 0]

They were on duty, in their jurisdiction. Also, FDNY policies and procedures require all members to render whatever assistance they can when on duty and stipulate that communications personnel maintain certifications and must be prepared to respond at all times. There is no way they can say they didn't have a duty to act. Simple airway management and CPR doesn't require any equipment. If nothing else, they could have remained on the scene to assist the responding units. Somebody brought scene safety? They were in the Au Bon Pain in their own headquarters building not Afghanistan.

The key to proving negligence is that they failed to act as anyone else with their level of training would. Judging from the response from other members of the EMS community I would say that they are screwed on that one. The fact that they continued to buy their bagels and walk off with them would probably make the negligence gross and possiby criminal. At the least I would expect them to be charged with official misconduct. Looking at how this story is going, if they are charged, they should cop a plea or ask for a judicial trial. They don't want a jury.

[NYMedic37 22]

If these 2 EMT's (or Paramedics) were on duty, in uniform, and left the scene without treating the patient or transferring care to the approiate medical authority then they are guilty of abandonment. They should be fired, banned from ever working in EMS again, sued and the district attorney should review the case for possible criminal charges. Even if they didn't have any medical gear they could have monitored/opened the airway prn, CPR prn, called for an ambulance, updated dispatch as to the patient's status to expedite the ambulance crew, etc.

[mikerabbit 2]

I really think that we should stop bashing these guys without knowing all the facts. They instructed the staff to call 911 to activate the system. If they did not have gloves would you really expect them to touch a patient and perform cpr or any other assesment? All that they really could have done was call 911 and keep the scene clear.

Edited December 23, 2009 by mikerabbit

[INIT915 1,119]

I really think that we should stop bashing these guys without knowing all the facts. They instructed the staff to call 911 to activate the system. If they did not have gloves would you really expect them to touch a patient and perform cpr or any other assesment? All that they really could have done was call 911 and keep the scene clear.

Perception is key. If nothing else, all they had to do was wait on the scene until a truck arrived and they would have looked like hero's to the public who was looking on.

[nycemt728 49]

I really think that we should stop bashing these guys without knowing all the facts. They instructed the staff to call 911 to activate the system. If they did not have gloves would you really expect them to touch a patient and perform cpr or any other assesment? All that they really could have done was call 911 and keep the scene clear.

Lets cut the bull...big deal, anyone can (and did) call 911. It doesnt take a CFR, EMD, EMT, medic or doctor to tell someone to call 911. I guess you don't eat out much at all, b/c most food service locations at some point have some sort of gloves for prep. Most also have saran wrap...hello makeshift faceshield. Or ever see all those signs that sy CPR kit located behind counter? That's required by law. Perhaps you were unaware of the studies about compression only CPR being very effective? I'm sorry, I refuse to give the benefit of the doubt to two people who disgrace the uniform they were wearing and give the rest of us a bad name. Even if they were negligent and didnt perform any assesments or interventions, they still could have stayed by the patients side. At least then they would have been good human beings and New Yorkers. There are too many things that could have been done in this situation to even remotely defend these guys.

Further, I agree with the others here, they were on duty for the agecny having juristidtiction...so long as FDNY says they have to (and i highly believe they do) they had a duty to act according to NYS; there is no legal defense.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I really think that we should stop bashing these guys without knowing all the facts. They instructed the staff to call 911 to activate the system. If they did not have gloves would you really expect them to touch a patient and perform cpr or any other assesment? All that they really could have done was call 911 and keep the scene clear.

Some times it's better to keep quiet and let everyone think you're an idiot than to post and erase all doubt. Sorry but your attitude of "me above all others", with absolutely no risk to yourself is disturbing. You represent everything many of us resent about EMS and the direction a portion of the fire service is heading.

[helicopper 1,050]

I really think that we should stop bashing these guys without knowing all the facts. They instructed the staff to call 911 to activate the system. If they did not have gloves would you really expect them to touch a patient and perform cpr or any other assesment? All that they really could have done was call 911 and keep the scene clear.

I truly believe that these guys bashed themselves and no matter what the outcome of the investigation, they have tarnished their, and by extension our, images with their conduct or lack of conduct, whichever you prefer.

Yes, I really would expect them to touch a patient and/or perform CPR without gloves. You can "protect" the seizing patient and/or perform chest compressions (if indicated) without gloves. Best option, no, but given the circumstances you can do a great many things without contact with BBP.

If they had called 911 and STAYED ON SCENE to await the ambulance, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The bottom line is they just left and that is a disgrace.

On the subject of PPE, don't all restaurants in NYC have to have a medical emergency kit containing at the very least a pocket mask? Wasn't that a big push a few years back? That makes the PPE argument moot.

[NYMedic37 22]

I really think that we should stop bashing these guys without knowing all the facts. They instructed the staff to call 911 to activate the system. If they did not have gloves would you really expect them to touch a patient and perform cpr or any other assesment? All that they really could have done was call 911 and keep the scene clear.

Abandonment, Lawsuit, Morals, A duty to act. "If they did not have gloves would you really expect them to touch the patient and perform cpr or any other assessment?" YES! Perhaps, you should consider another line of work. Something where you don't have to touch people.