E-One Apparatus starting to look good?

[antiquefirelt 994]

Let me clarify my original statement.I am basing this on a stick not a bucket. FYI aluminum melts at 1220.666F and steel melts at 2400F. That's why I prefer steel and think any stick made of aluminum is garbage.

Pretty strong opinion about the sticks being garbage. Funny Boston Fire seems to have made them work for long stretch, regardless of their maintenance program.

I'm not trying to sway you, but it seems E-One, Sutphen and Aeriascope have all been fairly successful at putting out usable aluminum aerials. E-One certainly has a fair market share of sticks. My limited understanding of physics, tells me that the mass of the aluminum aerial will not stay heated enough to actually melt unless left in directly flame for longer than any aerials wires, hydraulic seals , etc. will last. I think we'd have seen more melted sticks by now if this was anything more than a Peirce salesman's gimmick. Sorry, old Peirce salesman, as they now offer an aluminum aerial after years of bashing them saying they were dangerous and would melt.

[mfc2257 464]

Pretty strong opinion about the sticks being garbage. Funny Boston Fire seems to have made them work for long stretch, regardless of their maintenance program.

I'm not trying to sway you, but it seems E-One, Sutphen and Aeriascope have all been fairly successful at putting out usable aluminum aerials. E-One certainly has a fair market share of sticks. My limited understanding of physics, tells me that the mass of the aluminum aerial will not stay heated enough to actually melt unless left in directly flame for longer than any aerials wires, hydraulic seals , etc. will last. I think we'd have seen more melted sticks by now if this was anything more than a Peirce salesman's gimmick. Sorry, old Peirce salesman, as they now offer an aluminum aerial after years of bashing them saying they were dangerous and would melt.

I believe that Sutphen has never suffered a failure of an aluminum aerial either.... Looks like E-One and Sutphen for all the other complaints out there about them have dialed in the aluminum stick market.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Let me clarify my original statement.I am basing this on a stick not a bucket. FYI aluminum melts at 1220.666F and steel melts at 2400F. That's why I prefer steel and think any stick made of aluminum is garbage.

Yeah.....if your aerial fails because it was heated to 1220 deg. F, I would call that user error. Not that it would matter, because I'm sure the poor operator would be cooked long before the bucket hits the ground.

That said, my opinion on Sutphen has nothing to do with the aerial material. I just think they're poorly designed and laid out. Not so great in terms of function. They look pretty though....

[mfc2257 464]

Yeah.....if your aerial fails because it was heated to 1220 deg. F, I would call that user error. Not that it would matter, because I'm sure the poor operator would be cooked long before the bucket hits the ground.

That said, my opinion on Sutphen has nothing to do with the aerial material. I just think they're poorly designed and laid out. Not so great in terms of function. They look pretty though....

Thats the frustrating thing about Sutphen's... Great looking cabs... Awesome sticks.... but really tough to get them set up so that they are effecient. The most frustrating thing ever is the stupid rack of ground ladders on the officers side where you need two people to get a 24, 28, or 35 off the rig. Much better when you can slide the ladder out, carry and throw by your self. I'm also not a fan of their turntable layout and controls. Some departments swear by them though... Orlando FD runs them exclusively and has for decades.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I've heard this melting point argument in the steel versus aluminum debate time and time again as well as had discussions about it when brought up in aerial operator courses.

I have to ask this: Is there anyone out there that has seen a pile of molton aluminum on the ground? Or ever even heard about an aluminum ladder "melting" at a scene? I've seen aluminum ladders that have had direct flame impingement and not had any issues during the event. Here's my take on aluminum which I would recommend every time.

While the numbers listed are factual...they do not tell the whole story in regard to aluminum and if explained by the experts who design and engineer aluminum ladders it becomes quickly apparent that the melting point argument has no validity when discussing the merits of the two. Fact is more steel ladders have failed then aluminum. I'm no metallurgist but the following makes sense to me and counteracts the entire "melting point" comment often passed by diehard steel aerial fans. The following is a link to a white paper on Aluminum Aerials by EOne. It addresses the melting point issue: Aerial White Paper

Its clearly points out that while aluminum does in fact have a lower melting point...it also transfers (conducts) heat 3.3 times faster then steel, as the cross structural material is 2 to 3 times thicker then its steel counterparts. Due to this greater conductivity and the thickness heat is conducted away from hot areas significantly faster then steel.

Oh yeah..here's another good fact about aluminum when it comes to heat. Aluminum's conductivity of heat improves as the temperature increases....steel...it decreases.

As far as EOne..a couple of points in regard to info on their aluminum ladders with their distnctive swirl. EOne aluminum aerials reflect heat at an extremely high rate and they boasts upwards of 93% to 95%. In comparison steel aerials because they are painted reflect very very little heat.

[res6cue 67]

The only time an E-One looks good to me is when it's recycled into BEER CANS!

[TL2L31 8]

Thats funny. Our Sutphen has always had problems with the bucket. I personally dont like them too much either. E one and Sutphen just seem to me to be very rickety apparatus. They just dont feel like solid rigs.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Thats funny. Our Sutphen has always had problems with the bucket. I personally dont like them too much either. E one and Sutphen just seem to me to be very rickety apparatus. They just dont feel like solid rigs.

I'm hard pressed to find any apparatus anymore that feel like "solid" rigs. Most bodies are all made from either aluminum or stainless steel today. Ferrara, E-One, Pierce, etc. all are becoming lighter and lighter with similar body construction engineering.

I can't comment on Sutphen, but my only experience with them was with an engine in a neighboring department that was purchased when a close friend was Chief. The apparatus had significant issues that were apparent immediately upon delivery. The only thing I can say is that after discussing the issues directly with Drew Sutphen at a trade show, Drew took a personal interest to ensure the issues which seemed to be lagging along with getting taken care of prior to ensure they were rapidly done at that point.

LOL Res6cue. Then again I guess you could take all metal from the steel aerial failures and use them to make a new battle cruiser for the Navy..lol.

[antiquefirelt 994]

That said, my opinion on Sutphen has nothing to do with the aerial material. I just think they're poorly designed and laid out. Not so great in terms of function.

Same here. We ran a Sutphen rental for one year. It was interesting to say the least. Our personnel got a fair shot at transitioning from a RM stick to the MM tower while using an older chassis with a terrible turning radius and very unforgiving placement parameters. The bucket is really the biggest issue I have with them. Completely designed for water tower use almost completely ignoring any other aerial use. Even then the guns on the sides are not as easy to work as a tiller barred manual gun, but alas, many major and small FD's use them successfully every day. More power to them I guess.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Let me clarify my original statement.I am basing this on a stick not a bucket. FYI aluminum melts at 1220.666F and steel melts at 2400F. That's why I prefer steel and think any stick made of aluminum is garbage.

BTW, with any aerial, I think you'd want to consider the lower critical temperature, that which shows a physical change in the material. So, I'll assume AL is far lower than steel, but steel shows effects (elongation) at as little as 1400 F. In the end, I think is all "much ado about nothing" M'Ave is right, if these temps are affecting your aerial, it's time to bop the operator on the helmet!

[x635 4,066]

There has to be something said about Pierce introducing more and more aluminum aerial products to their line, and another manufacturer about to come on line with some aluminum aerial products.

One thing about aluminum from a price standpoint, it's usually less expensive because aluminum is less expensive, easier to fabricate, and easier to welder then steel.

Also, from a weight standpoint, it is a lot lighter.

[res6cue 67]

ALS hit the nail on the head, and it's the old cliché of "they sure don't build things like they used to!" Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure many of the rigs us 30 and 40 year old hold in high regard that were built in the 60s and 70s and even 80s, the old timers probably looking down on as not being as well built as the rigs they grew up with. However I can say with absolute certainty that the Pierces of today just don't have the same feel to them that the Pierce rigs I grew up on had. You can't even specify the material you want the cab made from anymore, it's aluminum or bust (speaking strictly of Pierce here). Same with the body, unless you specify you want galvanized or stainless steel, aluminum is the default and in some cases, the only choice (midmount tower ladders). Speaking of aluminum vs steel, I get a kick out of how our Pierce dealers back in the day used to trash aluminum aerials as being "weak" and "dangerous". Now that Pierce has their own line of aluminum aerials, all of a sudden the tune has changed, and aluminum is the cat's meow! I'm not naive, I understand how marketing works, but that doesn't mean I can't be amused by it!

[M' Ave 1,466]

To play devil's advocate for just ONE sec. (Quickly, because I find myself liking the merits of aluminum)

Part of the reason that there have been more steel ladder failures is simple. They've been around a lot longer and there are many many more of them in service.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

To play devil's advocate for just ONE sec. (Quickly, because I find myself liking the merits of aluminum)

Part of the reason that there have been more steel ladder failures is simple. They've been around a lot longer and there are many many more of them in service.

Why thank you for playing devils advocate. As a person who isn't part of the kinder, gentler fire service nor bogged in the mud of tradition, I have no issues with aluminum and obviously based on my post 1 or 2 prior to my last can also back up my stance in any argument far more then calling anything "crap" nor is mine based on opinion based on little to no facts. Which I have to say if my department opted to get an aerial made of steel tomorrow, I would probably make my case of aluminum but wouldn't die over it.

So with that in mind in response to the devil's advocate stance....I'll make this even easier. Go through all aerial failures in just the past 10 years then tell me what you fine.

I'm not gonna let my cat out of the bag yet as I have another part of this statement I want to discuss..but I'm enjoying this discussion with a few of you even though some will no longer chime in. I'm going to wait and see if we get any further responses with those home with the snow to continue it further.

[ny10570 745]

ummm, steel doesn't conduct electricity as well. Thats about all I can come up with. Yeah, an aluminum ladder is physically larger, but its lighter, stronger, easier to maintain, and actually gets strong with use. Look to the sports world, where strength vs weight is a constant issue. For years Aluminum has been employed in place of steel in situations where failure means certain injury and possibly death. I know you're looking for a fight on this one ALS, but the numbers are pretty clear.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

ummm, steel doesn't conduct electricity as well. Thats about all I can come up with. Yeah, an aluminum ladder is physically larger, but its lighter, stronger, easier to maintain, and actually gets strong with use. Look to the sports world, where strength vs weight is a constant issue. For years Aluminum has been employed in place of steel in situations where failure means certain injury and possibly death. I know you're looking for a fight on this one ALS, but the numbers are pretty clear.

LOL. Bro..you losing it on me or you haven't read all my posts...I advocate aluminum aerials lol. The only thing I can tell you that I choose steel over aluminum in only one thing..carabiners. You basically reiterated exactly the points I was making for those who claim aluminum is "crap" but yet can't come up with a) why it supposedly is and how steel is supposedly so much better. But as I suspected things are stuck in peoples head based on opinion then actual facts.

[IzzyEng4 427]

When I too my aerial operator's class I got to use a wide variety of aerial devices and construction types. My department we have a 102 LTI ladder tower that I operate.

In the class I got to operate a Stuphen 70' mid mount tower, a 55' tele, our tower ladder, Norwich's old 1970s era Seagrave rear mount aerial (ex-FDNY) and a new Pierce 100 foot aluminum aerial ladder quint. (only truck I didn't get to play with was an Aerialscope, none were available in the area where I took the test.)

The Pierce aluminum ladder took some getting use to in both operations and also the sound. The best way to describe the sound when the cables or something hit the aerial device, it sounded like someone waving a piece of aluminum foil in the air! But the operations was a breeze and the overall feel was interesting and smooth. Compared to a heavy steel aerial, the feel of the truck set up was quite different as well, you can actually feel how much lighter it was. I know Boston has operated with E-One's aerials for quite some time and many prefer them over the Pierce steel aerials they also have. It was interesting to operate one and wouldn't mind if our department purchased one. each type of construction has its advantages and disadvantages.

[ny10570 745]

LOL. Bro..you losing it on me or you haven't read all my posts...I advocate aluminum aerials lol. The only thing I can tell you that I choose steel over aluminum in only one thing..carabiners. You basically reiterated exactly the points I was making for those who claim aluminum is "crap" but yet can't come up with a) why it supposedly is and how steel is supposedly so much better. But as I suspected things are stuck in peoples head based on opinion then actual facts.

Sorry, I forget that tone goes nowhere in quick forum posts. I'm with you. I wanted to keep the discussion going and all I could find is that aluminum conducts electricity better.

I've even switched to aluminum biners. I've seen too many old beat to piss aluminum carabiners get cross loaded, tri loaded, dropped, crushed, and never completely fail while climbing. Combine that with the corrosion resistance and I dumped my last steel carabiner 3 years ago.

Wait, I got it. Steel ariels create more American Jobs than alumin...poop...America has a bigger chunk of the aluminum industry than the steel industry.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I know Boston has operated with E-One's aerials for quite some time and many prefer them over the Pierce steel aerials they also have. It was interesting to operate one and wouldn't mind if our department purchased one. each type of construction has its advantages and disadvantages.

In all fairness to the othe manufacturers out there that do make decent trucks, most guys from Boston that I've spoken to, talk about the E-One's ability to set up on their very narrow congested streets. The jack spread is nearly 5 feet less than their Peirces and I think until this last batch the E-Ones were all single rear axles vs, the Peirces and new E-One tandem axles. For the most part, most really just care about the functionality of the equipment regardless of whose name is on the front.