Respond to the scene or to the firehouse?

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I am just curious to hear peoples opinions about responding to alarms. I am a member of Pleasantville FD and a mutual aid member of Potsdam FD. In Pleasantville, all gear is kept at the firehouse and when an alarm comes in we respond POV to the firehouse and man the rigs and respond to the scene on them. However, in Potsdam, all gear is kept with the member in his/her POV. When an alarm comes in, members who have been in the department for one year or longer respond directly to the scene. Members with less than a year in the department respond to the firehouse for their first year. Potsdam FD employs 4 paid drivers, one of which is at the firehouse at all times. When an alarm comes in the paid driver rolls out on one of their engines (E49). This engine arrives on scene and acts as an equipment truck as well as establishing command. I am just curious to hear what people think about the two different response types. Pro? Cons?

Edited December 8, 2009 by PFDRes47cue

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Not know the lay out of Potsdam, I would have to assume it is your normal up state town with allot of land to cover... the main issue would be to get the rig and equipment to the scene, as members show up things will start getting done.. if they arent' already on the scene....

In Croton some of us carry our gear in our POV's and depending on where the call is, still respond to the firehouse... but there are times when its next door, and you head to the scene.... I guess the main concern is to make sure to toys are there and you have the right things to do the job and safety...

[CFFD117 19]

Im a member of croton falls, depending on the time and type of call i will either go to the firehouse or respond to the scene. for example if its in the middle of the night and it is an ems run, i would go to the scene. uasually for middle of the night stuff we dont get a driver to take out an aparatus from the station that is closest to me ( station 2). but we can almost always get apparatus out from headquarters. for fires and other things i would go to the firehouse, becasue i would rather be in an appratus and have tools with me (and of course theres not worrying about my car). for the most part i think it works ok. although if we get too many people responding to the scene tight roads can become choaked with cars. also you dont know how much manpower you will have until you get there.

[abaduck 123]

Speaking for myself and not my department...

1. If you have a combination department it makes no sense for members to respond to the house; the career FFs on duty will have the apparatus on the road before any volunteers can get there, unless they live next door. The same could apply with a volunteer FD with a well-organised rota of duty drivers, especially if they actually do duty tours at the house. What works best is whatever gets the maximum number of FFs to the scene fastest; that's where they're needed!

2. POV clusters... well that's down to having and enforcing discipline and SOPs for responding, parking on scene etc. etc. - if you have POV discipline you won't have POV clusterf*cks.

Edited December 8, 2009 by jack10562
removed quote

[pvfdny1262 0]

In my fire district for me it depends on multiple factors whether I respond in my POV or go to the fire house for the apparatus. my factors are: time of day, day of the week, type of call, and the location of the call. My fire department has three paid staff during the week 7a to 330p. We also use an outside agency for our ems coverage during the week 5a to 5p. So those two factors change my decision during the week. On the weekends I try to respond to almost every call. The location of the call is a major factor also. I will not pass my fire house to respond to the scene unless the apparatus have responded. I will only go to the scene if I have to go the other direction away from the fire house. As you can see to the everyday responder like myself you have to use common scence and look at all the factors. I dont want to sound like a know it all but honstly people we have brains please use them!!!!

[16fire5 693]

Any departments use the web based software to make their decisions?

[IzzyEng4 427]

In my home department, we do both. Usually members that live cloer to the firehouse keep thier gear at the station while others keep thier gear in thier POVs. We promote going to the firehouse if you are able to but if you respond via POV, you are to park away from the scene. If not, you do face diciplinary action by the officers.

[ajsbear 11]

My department every one goes to the station first except the chiefs. We use I am Responding and if the scene is between you and the firehouse you can put in a code to bring your gear. It works as we are spread out over 20 square miles.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

My department every one goes to the station first except the chiefs. We use I am Responding and if the scene is between you and the firehouse you can put in a code to bring your gear. It works as we are spread out over 20 square miles.

How does I Am Responding work for your department? Do you guys benefit from it? I was considering pushing for it in my department.

[FFPCogs 863]

I've never been a fan of POV responses, but like all else in the fire service there has to be flexibility. Speaking for our specific circumstances there really is no need for POV responses initially..we have 4 rigs sitting ready at the house just waiting for crews and our district small. Now for us the general rule of thumb is you respond to the FH unless you are passing the scene or it is very close by and then only if you have gear with you which most guys do not...it is kept in the FH. Now if all 4 rigs sign on well then it is acceptable to get your gear from the FH and respond in your PV to the scene.

I do understand though that other factors apply hence the need for flexibility. Many FDs cover large districts in which having every member respond to the FD is far too time consuming, or they have a limited number of rigs on which to respond. So for them POVs make sense, so long as someone gets the rigs out the door.

[Patch6713 18]

For us it is a combination of responding to the FH and to the scene in POV. Our district is about 70 miles and takes more than a half hour to drive from one end to the other. For this reason most people drive to the scene in their POV. However, there is a group of people who live 1-2 miles away from the FH and they respond right to the building and get the trucks.

I believe that the way the you respond, either to the FH or scene, is based on a lot of different factors. As PVFDNY1262 said the time of day, day of the week, type of call, and the location of the call all should be part of where you respond to. Also taken into consideration should be where you live relative to the FH among others.

[antiquefirelt 994]

In our combination FD all career personnel except Chief Officers must leave their gear in the station and report there for any recall. All POC personnel are allowed to carry their own gear, though as of now, not a single person does. The career staff responds 1 engine, 1 tower and one bus. This leave 2 engines and 2 more buses as well as a utility vehicle. Upsides: much less congestion on intown streets during alarms. Even with decent discipline, POV's are hard to get out of the way in most of our intown district and with poor hydrant spacing, this can be a real issue. This also allows us to utilize second and third due engines in a more traditional fashion, rather than have all of them respond and get parked as many "paid driver" FD's do. Our on duty career personnel function as companies rather than drivers. On the downside, knowing when the 2nd/3rd due is coming is not consistent. You never know who will be jumping out of these pieces and the reality is there is a difference. The Chief and myself are the only two who routinely carry our gear out of the station. His is in the City Chief's SUV and my in my POV as I live in an adjoining town and next to another that we frequently respond M/A to and I can be onscene 10 or more minutes ahead of our apparatus (7-12 miles).

We use the I Am Responding system and really like it. Basically as the IC or Duty officer I get updates from ost dispatchers who have our IAMRESPONDING screen up on their computer, or at worst I can request the status and they'll tell me (ex: 4 FF, 1 LT, 1 A/C). The issue it doesn't solve is their response time. The times are preprogrammed for each individual based on their travel time from home, so the number is inconsistent and almost useless. The best thing for us with IAMRESPONDING is using it when recalling station coverage (anytime fewer than 2 personnel are in house. This allows the DO to see who is coming in and if another call occurs he can contact them and have them respond direct (mostly EMS) as this is a fairly frequent occurrence.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Technically in New Fairfield the only people supposed to respond POV are Line Officers, EMTs (To EMS runs if the bus is en route or standing by w/ a partial crew) and Fire Police. However, the general rule of thumb where I am is that if you have to pass the scene to get to the firehouse, stop at the scene, but don't park like an idiot. Park out of the way (on a cross-street or nearby parking lot and away from hydrants, or in a long driveway of a house nearby.)

[cman473 56]

The questions I have, Is what benefit is there to having someone respond to the scene with out apparatus and how effective is some one just standing there waiting for an apparatus? Paid drivers are different and I am not pointing them out although how effective are the drivers alone on a scene?

Also How does that look in the public eye when they are screaming "My Baby is inside, MY Baby is Inside" and all you can do is stand there?

Number 1; on Initial response for apparatus in my own department, our SOG is "all Members shall respond to their respective stations to man the apparatus. No Member except for Chief's and Safety Officers are allowed to go direct to the scene" Only on 2nd Alarm assignments are members allowed to respond to the scene, Only after they have responded to a station to man apparatus they may be left.

Number 2; Most departments do not issue everyone their own SCBA. So while waiting for the apparatus and doing nothing on scene, what goes on? They need to communicate with the crew that may be on the apparatus, DON SCBA, and then gather their "tools" just to begin the job. If you arrive on the apparatus, a lot of this is done before you arrive on scene saving those precious minutes. Remember the 1st 10 minutes of your incident will dictate the remainder of your incident.

Dont you think it would be beneficial to the OIC, the apparatus operator and the members to know who is on their IFA Crew. BY having them respond to the station and man an apparatus, they have the chance to discuss on the way to the alarm on what their strategies can or will be and who will go where. Communication is the key. They should use that response time to, 1 listen to commands orders, 2 discuss their plan, 3 discuss safety and 4 who is doing what...ETC

Just my 2 Cents....

[antiquefirelt 994]

Also How does that look in the public eye when they are screaming "My Baby is inside, MY Baby is Inside" and all you can do is stand there?

This is similar to EMS services in our state being banned from allowing unlicensed personnel respond to the scene until licensed providers are there. In our case, when call personnel took their gear home, they almost never arrived before the first due, as our district is fairly compact.

That being said, I must address the quote above with a likely unpopular bold question:

Who's standing around doing nothing? :angry:

If someone's real live child is inside, so am I. I can not imagine living with that persons' face and voice in my head if I didn't make every attempt to try and make a difference. Different levels of experience will allow you to go to places in the same scenario. But if you push it until you're certain you cannot go any further, you'll be better in your own mind. Sure the book says stand by, wait for the engine and an SCBA and legally you will have complied, but that's not the end of the story, you'll have the rest of your life to decide over and over if you did enough. Sorry I don't buy the "without full PPE and an SCBA I'm useless" argument. You have knowledge about fire and buildings that surpasses the average person, you can calculate risk better than the postal worker who will knock your sad sack butt out of the way to go in and make the attempt. Stand around doing nothing? I doubt it, pretty soon you'll have to fight neighbors to keep them out if a child is truly in there. It's a lose-lose. If this bothers you, you should certainly make is SOP that no one goes to the scene via POV.

I ask this scenario in every new hire interview to see what the candidate says. Do they try and give us the book answer,? Are they paralyzed by regulations and fear? Or do they know the rules but see this as a personal decision that has dire consequence no matter what you decide? I know who I want to work with.

BTW see the front page of FH.com today about the Shirley, MA FFer who did just this.

http://www.firehouse.com/topics/top-headlines/mass-firefighter-goes-against-procedure-save-woman

Edited December 8, 2009 by antiquefirelt

[cman473 56]

This is similar to EMS services in our state being banned from allowing unlicensed personnel respond to the scene until licensed providers are there. In our case, when call personnel took their gear home, they almost never arrived before the first due, as our district is fairly compact.

That being said, I must address the quote above with a likely unpopular bold question:

Who's standing around doing nothing? :angry:

If someone's real live child is inside, so am I. I can not imagine living with that persons' face and voice in my head if I didn't make every attempt to try and make a difference. Different levels of experience will allow you to go to places in the same scenario. But if you push it until you're certain you cannot go any further, you'll be better in your own mind. Sure the book says stand by, wait for the engine and an SCBA and legally you will have complied, but that's not the end of the story, you'll have the rest of your life to decide over and over if you did enough. Sorry I don't buy the "without full PPE and an SCBA I'm useless" argument. You have knowledge about fire and buildings that surpasses the average person, you can calculate risk better than the postal worker who will knock your sad sack butt out of the way to go in and make the attempt. Stand around doing nothing? I doubt it, pretty soon you'll have to fight neighbors to keep them out if a child is truly in there. It's a lose-lose. If this bothers you, you should certainly make is SOP that no one goes to the scene via POV.

I ask this scenario in every new hire interview to see what the candidate says. Do they try and give us the book answer,? Are they paralyzed by regulations and fear? Or do they know the rules but see this as a personal decision that has dire consequence no matter what you decide? I know who I want to work with.

BTW see the front page of FH.com today about the Shirley, MA FFer who did just this.

http://www.firehouse.com/topics/top-headlines/mass-firefighter-goes-against-procedure-save-woman

You are absolutely correct and I would probably do the same, except I have my Own SCBA and Mask in My Chiefs Car. Making it safer for me to do such...now this is where the chief in me comes out. When that person goes in and does not come out, who gets the blame? Not that member, Not the Home Owner but the chief of that department, whether or not they were actually on scene. So in the long run, they still did nothing but cause more of a problem. Who knows they went in? Did they even tell any one? Did they tell the home owner who forgot, only because they are rightfully preoccupied with the danger their child is in, to tell you that Joe FF went in to get them. Your now under the impression your looking for a child and you find a brother firefighter. Where was the accountability?

We have no say in what J Q Public does and we can only pray they didn't succumb to their attempts. We read about the saves neighbors and milk men make all the time, or the lone firefighter on scene, but unfortunately we hear more about the ones who died trying.

A side, 2nd Story flame blowing out of 2 windows and they tell you that's were the child is. Heavy smoke coming out the front door banked to 2 feet of the floor. Only people that have proper PPE on have the right to attempt to do a search of that building. Risk a lot to save a lot, risk little to save little. Driver alone does nothing for that soul inside and a member standing out side with nothing does nothing just the same.

Now as for trying and succeeding, great!

But to answer the question "Who was standing around do nothing?" If you went in alone with no equipment, no proper PPE and no accountability and that person dies, that person did nothing.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

The questions I have, Is what benefit is there to having someone respond to the scene with out apparatus and how effective is some one just standing there waiting for an apparatus? Paid drivers are different and I am not pointing them out although how effective are the drivers alone on a scene?

Well in Potsdam for example, the driver gets there first with the an engine and who ever was hanging out at the firehouse. The rule of thumb up here is that if the call is in the village, the paid driver rolls the rig 1 minutes after the call. If the call is out of the village or M/A the driver waits 5 minutes or for 5 crew members. Another benefit of going to the scene and having a paid driver who may be only respond is that the paid driver can size up and establish command. The driver informs responding firefighters of the situation. He can also cancel their response prior to the responding firefighters getting to the scene which is a big safety plus.

[cman473 56]

Well in Potsdam for example, the driver gets there first with the an engine and who ever was hanging out at the firehouse. The rule of thumb up here is that if the call is in the village, the paid driver rolls the rig 1 minutes after the call. If the call is out of the village or M/A the driver waits 5 minutes or for 5 crew members. Another benefit of going to the scene and having a paid driver who may be only respond is that the paid driver can size up and establish command. The driver informs responding firefighters of the situation. He can also cancel their response prior to the responding firefighters getting to the scene which is a big safety plus.

Very Good Points!

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Also How does that look in the public eye when they are screaming "My Baby is inside, MY Baby is Inside" and all you can do is stand there?

As said by previous posters... if I were to be the first person on scene and was confronted by a parent screaming that someone is trapped, I would be inside trying to locate the person. One person on scene early saving someone on their own is more beneficial then a full truck coming 5 minutes later and having to do body recovery.

[ajsbear 11]

How does I Am Responding work for your department? Do you guys benefit from it? I was considering pushing for it in my department.

I like it. As an apparatus operator of usually the first rig in I know who is coming to crew my truck. I know if anyone is going direct as well as knowing who is coming on the next rig behind me. I know if I have to grab someone's gear as well. The only minus is the extra time it takes to call in. I won't do it while driving. It's a toll free number then when is answers you have to hit a key to let it know what you are doing, to the scene, firehouse etc. It shows up on the computer in the radio room and so long as no one changes the screen it's there as you walk in.

[antiquefirelt 994]

You are absolutely correct and I would probably do the same, except I have my Own SCBA and Mask in My Chiefs Car. Making it safer for me to do such...now this is where the chief in me comes out. When that person goes in and does not come out, who gets the blame? Not that member, Not the Home Owner but the chief of that department, whether or not they were actually on scene. So in the long run, they still did nothing but cause more of a problem. Who knows they went in? Did they even tell any one? Did they tell the home owner who forgot, only because they are rightfully preoccupied with the danger their child is in, to tell you that Joe FF went in to get them. Your now under the impression your looking for a child and you find a brother firefighter. Where was the accountability?

As I said, from a departmental aspect this is really the only answer. You cannot tell people they should risk it all with little or no gear.

But on a human level, which liability and legal dept's have taken from us, I'd find it difficult to chastise someone who did make the attempt or is willing to. In fact as I said, that's who I want with me day and night. Sorry but if you're a completely risk adverse firefighter, there's other guys (and gals) who I'd rather have. I cannot imagine living with the thought that I may have been able to do more, and I want to be surrounded by folks that have that same feeling, cause when it gets snotty and you're in trouble I want people who are willing to push it not those using a safety algorithm to determine my fate or those of my firefighters.

read about the saves neighbors and milk men make all the time, or the lone firefighter on scene, but unfortunately we hear more about the ones who died trying.

Really? I cannot remember the last time I read of a firefighter dying while making an off-duty or under protected attempted rescue. I do remember many successful rescues and far more often than I care to, I see firefighter LODD's while operating with companies onscene. So while the risk is clearly evident, the cases for us dying while pushing too far before FD arrival don't prove that we assume too much risk to save precious life.

Edited December 8, 2009 by antiquefirelt

[antiquefirelt 994]

II won't do it while driving. It's a toll free number then when is answers you have to hit a key to let it know what you are doing, to the scene, firehouse etc.

Most of us have it preprogrammed into our cellphones for a one button dial. "In the Five Hole"! As soon as you hear the voice, you can hang up and the predesignated response is sent in. Of course this is where 95% of our crew responds to station, otherwise you must push a second number to tell it something else (like "to the scene") and for me finding a number on my phone in the dark is asking for a personal MVA.

[ajsbear 11]

Most of us have it preprogrammed into our cellphones for a one button dial. "In the Five Hole"! As soon as you hear the voice, you can hang up and the predesignated response is sent in. Of course this is where 95% of our crew responds to station, otherwise you must push a second number to tell it something else (like "to the scene") and for me finding a number on my phone in the dark is asking for a personal MVA.

That's it, I have a Blackberry. Find the key at 3 AM. Woops here comes a Deer, or worse. Keep your eyes on the road. We respond to enough people who were on their cells while driving. Don't want to be a statistic.

[FiftyOnePride 100]

I would have a hard time with any type of phone medium response program, too focused on driving safely given the potential rush of adrenaline or adverse conditions on the road, and more simply, I have hardly any service around my house, which could mess up the efficiency in my use of said system.

Response to the station or otherwise? I am a few miles from the barn so it depends on where it is and what time of day it is. Daytime I can usually make it to the station to grab a piece of equipment, but at night unless it is my duty night for EMS I am hard pressed to catch any rig let alone drive it. So the situation dictates the response, we have a pretty good organization as far as POV'ers responding who are appropriate in their response and staging/parking.

[cman473 56]

As I said, from a departmental aspect this is really the only answer. You cannot tell people they should risk it all with little or no gear.

But on a human level, which liability and legal dept's have taken from us, I'd find it difficult to chastise someone who did make the attempt or is willing to. In fact as I said, that's who I want with me day and night. Sorry but if you're a completely risk adverse firefighter, there's other guys (and gals) who I'd rather have. I cannot imagine living with the thought that I may have been able to do more, and I want to be surrounded by folks that have that same feeling, cause when it gets snotty and you're in trouble I want people who are willing to push it not those using a safety algorithm to determine my fate or those of my firefighters.

Really? I cannot remember the last time I read of a firefighter dying while making an off-duty or under protected attempted rescue. I do remember many successful rescues and far more often than I care to, I see firefighter LODD's while operating with companies onscene. So while the risk is clearly evident, the cases for us dying while pushing too far before FD arrival don't prove that we assume too much risk to save precious life.

Again, like I already said, you have to "risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little." As for me being a "completely risk adverse firefighter" is way off key as obviously some one who cant comprehend some one speaking on the side of safety. Never once did I say I would chastise some on for making an attempt. Attempts are made every time we respond, PERIOD. I am talking about that lone guy standing out front taking the risk of going into a burning building where the second floor is fully involved, with no one around to communicate with, before arrival of a frickin' hand tool to use while doing their fast paced search to save a life. All the training everyone takes and the speeches you here all year long stating "Everyone Goes Home"

And if the risk was way to high on a free burning fire and you are one person, alone, why are you taking the risk? God for bid you die in in that fire...That means Everyone did not come home, that means when OSHA, PESH and/or whoever come down for their investigation and found that something was done wrong and the chief of that department has to do jail time for "firefighters not being informed enough of the dangers of firefighting and not having the understanding of their own SOG's" means that chief didn't come home either. SOG's were not followed by someone and now other people that were "completely risk adverse firefighters" are paying the long term price when in fact all a educated person was doing was trying to keep everyone safe. Sometimes you can fix everything. All I was saying was be safe and use your head.

And that's why I make everyone respond to their respective stations to man the apparatus, which is the original topic. We have done it for 5 years with little to no incidents...it works and I recommend it to everyone to try.

[FiftyOnePride 100]

http://www.firehouse.com/topics/top-headlines/mass-firefighter-goes-against-procedure-save-woman

Food for thought or fuel for fire?

[BFD1054 1,552]

When i first joined my FD, all members kept their gear on their POV's and would respond to the scene. Through the years, we realized that this practice was pretty useless and POV's would just get in the way. We would instill the importance of POV placement (far from the scene), but there were those who never seemed to "get it."

Finally, about a year or so ago, we purchased our first gear rack that held 8 sets of gear. We let our most active guys, including line officers, have first dibs on it. That became so succesful that we recently purchased a 2nd rack, capable of holding another 5 sets of gear. There is also talk of ordering at least one more wall rack.

I currently serve as Captain and my gear is on the rack. I have a spare set of gear in my POV, but RARELY use it.

I feel that having members respond to the firehouse is imperitive. This practice will more often get a fully "staffed" apparatus on the road. The hard part is to get some of our "old-school" drivers to take a deep breath and wait a minute or so for a crew. Too often do we have drivers who get here quickly (+), jump in the rig and take off (-). It sounds great when "xyz" FD has a rig on the road in a minute or so of dispatch, but when in reality theres only a driver, it accomplishes nothing. It then becomes the old "smoke and mirrors" theory.

I will respond to the firehouse 99% of the time. I will then get on our fireground frequency and advise that i am en-route to the firehouse. Sometimes guys hear me, sometimes they dont. If i get here and all the rigs are out, im happy. I will then respond in my POV. If i get to a scene and all apparatus is there, but without full crews, that makes me very unhappy.

All in all, having our members keep their gear at the firehouse has been a positive initiative. It has drastically reduced the number of POVs on our scenes which is a huge plus. Nothing makes me cringe more than seeing the blue-light whacker parade going down the street lol.

As an officer, it makes it easy for me to do my job. I will ensure that the driver waits for a full crew. Then, while en-route i can assign different tasks to my crew depending on the situation. I work well with most of my drivers and that helps as well. My drivers know their job and many know hydrant locations. I know they will get us there in one piece and do their jobs with little to no help from anybody. That means i can focus on the task(s) at hand.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Again, like I already said, you have to "risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little." As for me being a "completely risk adverse firefighter" is way off key as obviously some one who cant comprehend some one speaking on the side of safety. Never once did I say I would chastise some on for making an attempt. Attempts are made every time we respond, PERIOD. I am talking about that lone guy standing out front taking the risk of going into a burning building where the second floor is fully involved, with no one around to communicate with, before arrival of a frickin' hand tool to use while doing their fast paced search to save a life. All the training everyone takes and the speeches you here all year long stating "Everyone Goes Home"

And if the risk was way to high on a free burning fire and you are one person, alone, why are you taking the risk? God for bid you die in in that fire...That means Everyone did not come home, that means when OSHA, PESH and/or whoever come down for their investigation and found that something was done wrong and the chief of that department has to do jail time for "firefighters not being informed enough of the dangers of firefighting and not having the understanding of their own SOG's" means that chief didn't come home either. SOG's were not followed by someone and now other people that were "completely risk adverse firefighters" are paying the long term price when in fact all a educated person was doing was trying to keep everyone safe. Sometimes you can fix everything. All I was saying was be safe and use your head.

And that's why I make everyone respond to their respective stations to man the apparatus, which is the original topic. We have done it for 5 years with little to no incidents...it works and I recommend it to everyone to try.

Brother, take a deep breath. I'm not trying to paint you in any light, merely debating some points and explaining my position. You may have missed my point, so I'll say it again, just read it and in those infamous words: QTIP. It ain't about any one it's about every one as an individual.

Being faced with the scenario that you are the lone firefighter at the scene of a structure fire with a person reporting a trapped child, you will be faced with a significant decision. What do I do? No one can fault you for taking a safe approach of completing a total size-up, killing the gas, and those duties that will make the attack faster and/or easier. But, you will likely have to wrestle with that decision for the rest of your life if that child dies. Of course there is a great chance that you wouldn't have been able to enough anyway, but you'll not know for certain. If your me, I know I'll have a very difficult time with that, so much so that I can't fathom not making every attempt possible. Now, here;s the tricky part, I'm not some BS hero or suicidal,but I still would push myself within the limits I perceive to be my best attempt.No taking a breath and plunging headlong into zero visibility with no direction, but maybe I go under some smoke, I can check a room, maybe two, who knows. Maybe I'm right back on the doorstep realizing there is n way. The point is while SOP and rules and all of that tell us the "right answer", this could be a life altering event for which you cannot be faulted for choosing the attempt. Depending on how much experience you have, you may be able to take more calculated risk, or maybe your over confident and have no business being in there and mistakenly charge in to your death. We all use risk/reward for every decision in life, not just fireground stuff. Ask 10 people here to evaluate the same scenario and assign a risk value 1-10 and you'll likely get a few different answers based on each individuals personal experiences. So do you just peek in the door? DO you check the relatively clear living room? Do you go to the top of the stairs and yell out? You're the only one who will know.

In the end, you/me/someone will make a decision based on the situation at hand, not some made up scenario on computer. The smells, sounds, faces and people yelling will all have an effect. It's like so many people who say, "Screw them, I'd shoot that guy in heartbeat if it was me", without really being faced with the actual decision to end a life. A lot more though and feeling goes into these things than you can muster up while sitting in your office. So don't make this about any one person yourself or otherwise, just know that a decision as significant as the one presented cannot be completely thought through and made into a blanket policy that people will actually follow because it's policy.

[antiquefirelt 994]

When i first joined my FD, all members kept their gear on their POV's and would respond to the scene. Through the years, we realized that this practice was pretty useless and POV's would just get in the way. We would instill the importance of POV placement (far from the scene), but there were those who never seemed to "get it."

It seems this is really a common experience among POC and combo FD's. With the best intentions we rarely could not create obstacles for responding apparatus. Happened in my first VFD and to a degree when I started on the carer side of a combo FD. BUt as I said before a few officers take their gear, two of us always and another POC Capt. pretty regularly does. We've had guys arrive before the first due and because they were trained and radio equipped were able to be very helpful to the initial crews. It's nice pulling up having a more complete story than dispatch got, and getting said story from a calm collected person, not a screaming distraught homeowner. It's nice knowing it looks like the basement is clear, and the fire seems to be ... Maybe we are told we need a supply line on the way in or there's no room for the tower etc. There are benefits, but like anything too many cooks spoil the soup. For that reason we'll likely capitalize on the fortune that only a few officer take their gear and make that a rule. It's toug enough to be in the Fire SUV and find a place to get out of the way but still see everything or have command equipment readily available, more than 2 or 3 of these in my little burg and we'll all have to be on the neighbors lawns.

[antiquefirelt 994]

http://www.firehouse.com/topics/top-headlines/mass-firefighter-goes-against-procedure-save-woman

Food for thought or fuel for fire?

Here's another from today!

http://www.firehouse.com/topics/top-headlines/duty-new-york-firefighters-save-two-blaze

Edited December 8, 2009 by antiquefirelt