Unionized EMS?

[ny10570 745]

But thats the problem. Transcare isn't some monster brutalizing its work force. The pay is good enough, there are benefits, and few see this as a career. Why am I going to give up 10, 20, 70, or whatever dollars a check when I'm outta here as soon as x or y job comes through.

Why would anyone vote to unionize transcare? Did any of Mt Vernon's unions say anything when union jobs were handed to a non-union employer? If there's no pressure or incentive to hire union then there will always be some non-union company waiting in the wings to undercut the next contract. While being union doesn't necessarily make you uncompetitive it does make it harder and takes longer to react to changes in the market place.

[Raz 14]

The pay is good enough, there are benefits, and few see this as a career. Why am I going to give up 10, 20, 70, or whatever dollars a check when I'm outta here as soon as x or y job comes through.

And that post is exactly the reason why EMS will always be treated as the red headed stepchild of the emergency services.

[WAS967 97]

What's really disturbing is that only 226 voted.

The estimates are that about 350 or so employees were eligible to vote. I'd say 226 of them (64%) is a pretty good turn out. That's better than voter turn out for presidential elections which averages 50-60%.

While it wasn't exactly a close vote, at least a year from now if things haven't improved or if they've gotten worse, then the union can re-visit and if enough support is present, then they can petition for another election. I"ve seen that happen before and the union came back and won the second time around.

For some reason the union guy (Matt Levy) claims to be confident that the election results will be "thrown out" and there will be another election. I'd be interested to know why he thinks that. If the employees have spoken and don't want the union, then why discard their decision?

Edited December 2, 2009 by WAS967

[ny10570 745]

RAz, my point was, thats why people will not vote for the union. They don't see or more likely don't care about the long term implications.

WAS, who exactly was eligible to vote? I was under the impression it was all full and part time medics and EMTs working 911. Shouldn't that be closer to 800+ eligible voters?

[gamewell45 258]

For some reason the union guy (Matt Levy) claims to be confident that the election results will be "thrown out" and there will be another election. I'd be interested to know why he thinks that. If the employees have spoken and don't want the union, then why discard their decision?

Each side has 5 days to challenge the conduct of the election.

If the company threatened or coerced or made promises to the employees as a condition to vote no on the election, that would be a violation of the NLRA of 1934 and the NLRB could set aside the election and either order a new election or rule immediate recognition of the union by the employer.

If the so-called "Free Choice Act" goes through, it will eliminate most of the issues involved with elections as all you'll need for recognition is a majority of signed cards thus removing the need for an election in most cases.

[WAS967 97]

WAS, who exactly was eligible to vote? I was under the impression it was all full and part time medics and EMTs working 911. Shouldn't that be closer to 800+ eligible voters?

Good question, for which I don't have the exact answer. The Transcare page setup seemed to imply that it was in the area of 350.

[gamewell45 258]

Good question, for which I don't have the exact answer. The Transcare page setup seemed to imply that it was in the area of 350.

the union organizer should have an "Excelsior" list which is a list of all eligble voters.

[Guest paramedico987]

In my oppinion there are two key factors that prevent EMS from being held up onto a pedestal of even half the height of Law Enforcement or the Fire Service.

1) We are, truly, not necessary in the public eye. Don't get me wrong, I believe fully in what I do and that people are bettered by our existence, but when push comes to shove people would find a way to the hospital without us. If the Fire Service were eliminated and an entire city burned down [like Chicago back in the day] EVERYBODY would notice. If rogue criminals walked the streets, killing, raping, and robing indiscriminately EVERYBODY would notice. But when the small percentage of the population that utilize our services and are ACTUALLY saved as a result of our services aren't any more, the only one's that notice are those directly affected... There's no mass hysterical outcry for EMS. We must demonstrate on a regular basis that we are and can be a VITAL component of this society in the 21st century.

For example: Some time over the last year there was a fire in Yonkers due to illegal fireworks in which people were injured. The news paper story glorified how the FF's pulled the "victims" out of the burning house, but gave no such life-saving credit to the EMS crews that then treated and transported them. That's not to say that the FD doesn't deserve recognition for their work. I think we can all agree they do, but if instances of EMS having a positive impact on society aren't upheld, we'll continue to be the bastard children that we are.

2) We, the people, have to make a critical decision. Is EMS a business, like the phone company, or is it a public service, like the PD or FD? Until we decide there can be no genuine progress because the two, mutually exclusive, forces will continue to work against each other. A business will always get little sympathy from the public when it comes to budgetary problems.

I believe that there is a place for unions and that EMS outfits, in many instances, could make good use of them. But I remain weary of unions, in general, as they have this tendency to become bullies, which cause undue rise in the cost of doing business.

We'll have to continue waiting for a solution. Until then, the tones go out and we respond.

[ny10570 745]

The sooner we recognize we are not cops or firefighters the better EMS will be. Cops and firefighters enter dangerous situations to save lives. We go near dangerous situations and wait for the police or firefighters to do their thing. Yes, sometimes poo spills over and we get caught up. But so do ER docs and nurses. In my opinion, the solution is to better integrate EMS into the healthcare system. Rather than just being a taxi service EMS has to be empowered to tell people no and treat minor problems without transporting everyone.

[OoO 24]

The sooner we recognize we are not cops or firefighters the better EMS will be. Cops and firefighters enter dangerous situations to save lives. We go near dangerous situations and wait for the police or firefighters to do their thing. Yes, sometimes poo spills over and we get caught up. But so do ER docs and nurses. In my opinion, the solution is to better integrate EMS into the healthcare system. Rather than just being a taxi service EMS has to be empowered to tell people no and treat minor problems without transporting everyone.

I agree and disagree. I agree that it is not our job to go into dangerous situations, but often times something that appears trivial can become dangerous fast. Furthermore, there are dangers associated with EMS that doctors and nurses do not face, such as the risk of an MVA, increased risk to blood borne pathogen exposure and being in a confined space with a sick and possibly contagious person.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Years ago the employees of Sloper decided to unionize in Dutchess county. The end result was the employees went over 2 years without a contract. This equated to 2 years without raises or improvements in benefits. The union they chose was lack luster at best. The company nearly went bankrupt due to all of the lawyer costs that piled up. The end result was they sold the company to Alamo. Many of the employees who worked there regretted checking yes on the ballot. They were a small not for profit company and the union expenses were the death of a good place to work. The union threw out proposed contracts that had starting pays that were off the charts and were nowhere near the realm of possibility. Watch out what you ask for because you just might get it when it comes to unions. There is no money in EMS 911 work and transports are suffering the same fate. Things will only get worse with this Obamacare if it passes. If your job is decent, leave it alone. The money the company spends on fighting the union will have to come from somewhere. Most likely it will be your salary.

You know, when my job unionized the members had to meet in secret when they were organizing. The story of unionization across this country was one of business interests pitted against working people who wanted to unite and create a better workplace. Violence against unions cost multiple lives across the decades. A great movie to watch would be "Hoffa" starring Jack Nicholson & Danny DeVito; a good dramatic version of the Teamsters story.

Many people sacrificed a lot. The members of the EMS community have to realize that the fight they conduct to organize and make things better for the JOB, might not neccesarily benefit YOU personally. You might have to step up and be the men and women that future generations of workers in EMS will look back on and say; "look what those members sacrificed to make things better for us."

EMS needs a national front, like the FD has the IAFF. They need to affiliate with AFL-CIO. And then they need to systematically unite EMS throughout the country. Some of you guys have no idea how beneficial it could be for EMS to be strong union. Think about the future; your "retirement", benefits and other things that being union gives you the right to negotiate with your employer. Trust me, it's worth the fight!

[Goose 188]

You know, when my job unionized the members had to meet in secret when they were organizing. The story of unionization across this country was one of business interests pitted against working people who wanted to unite and create a better workplace. Violence against unions cost multiple lives across the decades. A great movie to watch would be "Hoffa" starring Jack Nicholson & Danny DeVito; a good dramatic version of the Teamsters story.

Many people sacrificed a lot. The members of the EMS community have to realize that the fight they conduct to organize and make things better for the JOB, might not neccesarily benefit YOU personally. You might have to step up and be the men and women that future generations of workers in EMS will look back on and say; "look what those members sacrificed to make things better for us."

EMS needs a national front, like the FD has the IAFF. They need to affiliate with AFL-CIO. And then they need to systematically unite EMS throughout the country. Some of you guys have no idea how beneficial it could be for EMS to be strong union. Think about the future; your "retirement", benefits and other things that being union gives you the right to negotiate with your employer. Trust me, it's worth the fight!

The problem is the AFL-CIO will never affiliate with EMS because the IAFF wants all EMS to be provided by the Fire Department. They recently put out another position statement that outlines this very desire. There was a report that came out back in 2003 that was written by GW University and it stated that the Country needed to take EMS out of the DOT back office and create a national office for EMS on par with those bodies that represent fire and pd - the fire agencies were the chief opponents.

On paper it sounds nice, but i just don't see it happening. Ive talked with colleagues who are career firemen and moonlight as career paramedics as a B job and they speak of a "separate but equal" situation. Put EMS under the FD but have it separate - FFs stay on their trucks/engines and EMS has the ambulances we all work together, we all get good bennies, pay, etc.

I would be down for that, if it were ever possible - i think the planets would need to align and you would need to have the right personalities for it to ever work. So many firemen hate EMS and so many EMS members resent firemen, there would need to be some serious peace talks lol

Edited December 11, 2009 by Goose

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The problem is the AFL-CIO will never affiliate with EMS because the IAFF wants all EMS to be provided by the Fire Department. They recently put out another position statement that outlines this very desire. There was a report that came out back in 2003 that was written by GW University and it stated that the Country needed to take EMS out of the DOT back office and create a national office for EMS on par with those bodies that represent fire and pd - the fire agencies were the chief opponents.

On paper it sounds nice, but i just don't see it happening. Ive talked with colleagues who are career firemen and moonlight as career paramedics as a B job and they speak of a "separate but equal" situation. Put EMS under the FD but have it separate - FFs stay on their trucks/engines and EMS has the ambulances we all work together, we all get good bennies, pay, etc.

I would be down for that, if it were ever possible - i think the planets would need to align and you would need to have the right personalities for it to ever work. So many firemen hate EMS and so many EMS members resent firemen, there would need to be some serious peace talks lol

Goose I think a lot of firemen may hate DOING EMS work, but in my personal experience I saw a big change in attitudes on both sides as the years went by. Years ago in my district there was outright hostility at times. This came to be replaced by cooperation as firemen began to work more closely with professional paramedics and saw the lifesaving skills you guys bring to the victims. There came to be a mutual respect.

But yes, there are many FD locals across the country that are fighting private companies that compete against FD based EMS ops. Because the privates come in and bid for EMS at ridiculously lowball numbers. This has a direct impact as the municipality then squeezes the union, and good jobs are threatened. And all the while the private company is underpaying, or underbenefiting the EMS workers.

EVERYTHING can be negotiated, so I would never say never regarding the IAFF or the AFL-CIO. What the IAFF does not want is privates that underpay and compete against union jobs. What the IAFF does want (in my opinion) is for EMS workers to be getting proper pay and total compensation. Union workers tend to root for each other as we all have similar struggles and stories.

Edited December 11, 2009 by efdcapt115

[gamewell45 258]

Years ago the employees of Sloper decided to unionize in Dutchess county. The end result was the employees went over 2 years without a contract. This equated to 2 years without raises or improvements in benefits. The union they chose was lack luster at best.

I notice you put a negative spin on this. You could also make the claim that for two years the company was prevented by law of reducing your benefits/salary since under federal law, once the union is elected, the company cannot change the terms and conditions of employment (meaning they cannot reduce your benefits nor cut your salary) until you have a labor agreement in place..

Furthermore, during that period of time, I personally had the opportunity to speak with some employees of Sloper who complained that most of the employees were content to sit back and let the union do most of the work and very few of the employees showed much support towards the negotiating committee when it came time for solidarity. While it was only 5 or 6 employees i spoke with but all of them had the same thing to say so to me its very telling about the lack of support the negotiating committee received from the rank and file.

[gamewell45 258]

You know, when my job unionized the members had to meet in secret when they were organizing. The story of unionization across this country was one of business interests pitted against working people who wanted to unite and create a better workplace. Violence against unions cost multiple lives across the decades. A great movie to watch would be "Hoffa" starring Jack Nicholson & Danny DeVito; a good dramatic version of the Teamsters story.

Many people sacrificed a lot. The members of the EMS community have to realize that the fight they conduct to organize and make things better for the JOB, might not neccesarily benefit YOU personally. You might have to step up and be the men and women that future generations of workers in EMS will look back on and say; "look what those members sacrificed to make things better for us."

EMS needs a national front, like the FD has the IAFF. They need to affiliate with AFL-CIO. And then they need to systematically unite EMS throughout the country. Some of you guys have no idea how beneficial it could be for EMS to be strong union. Think about the future; your "retirement", benefits and other things that being union gives you the right to negotiate with your employer. Trust me, it's worth the fight!

They should also consider reading John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath". Part of the book details during the Great Depression how people who wanted to unionize were murdered by business owners in order to keep unions out of the workplace.

When I was in high school it was required reading, but i'm not sure if it is anymore.

[gamewell45 258]

The problem is the AFL-CIO will never affiliate with EMS because the IAFF wants all EMS to be provided by the Fire Department. They recently put out another position statement that outlines this very desire. There was a report that came out back in 2003 that was written by GW University and it stated that the Country needed to take EMS out of the DOT back office and create a national office for EMS on par with those bodies that represent fire and pd - the fire agencies were the chief opponents.

Goose I don't think thet the AFL-CIO would deny affiliation with them because the IAFF wants all the EMS work particularly in view of the Change to Win Federation (AKA the Great Labor Schism of 2005) which was created by 6 unions unhappy with the AFL-CIO's policies. The IAFF only represents a small part of the Executive BoardEMS could always affiliate under a union like CWA, Teamsters, RDWU, local 1199, etc. There is plenty of unions that have EMS representation that are part of the AFL-CIO and Change to Win Federation.

If the AFL-CIO wouldn't take you, the Change To Win Federation would.