Unionized EMS?

[ems-buff 81]

With the recent topic of Transcare taking over a unionized EMS Companies (Empress EMS) 911 contract. I would like to see what every ones thoughts are.

I know that the IAEP R-20 Local (Yonkers) has saved a lot of jobs in the past, and has given employees the voice, and fearlessness to question things they don't like at Empress, but a union is only as strong as it's people in it.

So my question is this. Do you think having EMS unionized helps improve the quality, and safety of it's employees, or do you think it's just a game of roll the dice with management?

[Goose 188]

It sounds good in theory, but honestly, there really isn't a good EMS union. We have nothing that is on par with the PBA or IAFF/UFA and in my opinion nothing that is worth my money.

[IzzyEng4 427]

AMR in New Haven and I believe ARM Bridgeport are unionized. There EMT's and Paramedics are properly compensated and have a fairly decent relationship with management as far as I know off hand.

If you feel that the employer is not addressing the concerns of its employees, proper compensation and benefits, ect. then you may want to investigate starting a local. I've been a unionized worker for most of my working life and have benefit from it. However everyone has to be on board with the decision to unionize and also be represented by a good union that is AFL-CIO affiliated (in my opinion).

As you said, a union is as only as good as its members make it.

[x635 4,066]

It sounds good in theory, but honestly, there really isn't a good EMS union. We have nothing that is on par with the PBA or IAFF/UFA and in my opinion nothing that is worth my money.

There are a variety of different unions that EMS can belong to. In some cases, they can even be members of the IAFF/UFA, or PBA. They could be part of the CSEA, 1199, or form their own AFL-CIO bargaining unit. It depends on where and how they are employed. For example, Boston's EMS Union is a part of the Police union, even though they have nothing to do with the PD. A union is only as good as the members make it to be, hence unionized.

One of the main reason for the great pay, job security, and benefits that cops and career firefighters have is because of the unions. There are a lot of unions that fought hard for that.

However, it depends on the relationship with the employer. If employees have a good relationship with the employer and are comfortable with that, then fine. If they feel they need the protection of a union, then that is something they are afforded.

Of course, there's corruption in unions and some things that aren't so great. I don't agree with everything some unions do, and are dubious of some, but if you study the history of before and after of unions especially in the NYC area, you can see why they were needed in a lot of cases and how things did improve.

In a lot of cases, EMS Unions fail because employees are afraid of losing their jobs or retrobution from their empoyer if they participate.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The reason that Commercial EMS unions have not worked is because of the amount of funding that municipalities are willing to pay for EMS service.

If unionized company X agrees to pay its employees $100 per hour, it will need to bid 5 times (or so more) for the municipal contract. As long as there is compitition available the municipality can go with the non-union company that will charge less, the other option it will have is to start a muncipal service.

If the unionized companies charge too much, they will not have contracts and there wil be lay-offs.

THe bigger issue is how much money is medicare/medicaid and private insurance willing to pay for EMS service. As long as its the current rate unions will have little effect on the amount of money EMS employees make.

[x635 4,066]

But unions do have an effect.

What if a private company came to a City, and said we could provide better fire and police services and cheaper then your departments can with a non unionized workforce?

Does anyone think that the IAFF or PBA would tolerate that?

[Bnechis 3,961]

But unions do have an effect.

What if a private company came to a City, and said we could provide better fire and police services and cheaper then your departments can with a non unionized workforce?

Does anyone think that the IAFF or PBA would tolerate that?

In general unions have had a major effect. I have yet to see them do much of anything for EMS. I've worked multiple EMS union and nonunion shops. Worked one where the best thing that happened was we tossed the union out.

People here have said it depends on the people, it also depends on what deals were struck and by whom to get into the union. I know one where the EMS crews wanted out of EMS, got the place to go union, then got fired and the union rewarded them with 2x the pay driving supermarket 18 wheelers. I also know a company that managment went to the union to set it up, not the employees, who do you think the local was working for in that case.

RM did come to Westchester for "less" they performed so badly that the were shown the door. Then the IAFF got the state to ban private fire. THe difference is Union EMS cant get the numbers to change Albany

[x635 4,066]

You're absolutely right. I just find it so frusterating that seemingly EMS will never really be where it should in NY, and there doesn't seem to be much a movement to push it in the right direction. It seems that people care more about their trash pickup (which in most communities in Westchester, is municpal and union) then EMS. And a lot of that lies with EMS workers themselves for not getting out there and proactively marketing themselves as a valuable community asset and making themselves constantly visible.

[E58RET 24]

Barrry, You and Seth are right,EMS in Westchester is so scattered between paid and Volunteer and"mixed" services that it would be almost impossible to unionize The variuos systems that are now operating.

[Goose 188]

You're absolutely right. I just find it so frusterating that seemingly EMS will never really be where it should in NY, and there doesn't seem to be much a movement to push it in the right direction. It seems that people care more about their trash pickup (which in most communities in Westchester, is municpal and union) then EMS. And a lot of that lies with EMS workers themselves for not getting out there and proactively marketing themselves as a valuable community asset and making themselves constantly visible.

You want proactive? Everyone stop working their "B" job and well see how many ambulance calls get answered in this county...

If EMS is you're sole source of income you probably work 2 jobs (assuming you're a field provider and not management) and, if you're like me, you don't want to be bothered with EMS when you get time off after working insane hours. I don't know about you, but i surely don't have the time or the energy to try and fight a battle that will never be won and most don't give a crap about.

Things will either change piece meal (ie: when someone's loved one dies b/c an ambulance does not get out) or in the wake of (God forbid) a major disaster where life is lost and said loss could have been prevented.

Look, the powers that be know the issue exists - i am convinced they have to...ask any 60 Control dispatcher about mutual aid EMS requests, i am sure they have more than a handful of stories...the tapes are there, the data is there...but they can't do a damn thing about it...

Edited November 28, 2009 by Goose

[helicopper 1,050]

I've worked for both and have seen good and bad in each. I don't think there's a magic cure (union or otherwise) to the ills that plague EMS and most EMS agencies don't have the numbers of people to be a real lobbying force.

Goose, people have died and we've had media coverage about response times and disparate levels of care but little has really changed. The sad fact is that we (generally speaking) are just as apathetic and complacent as the public when it comes to this.

[ny10570 745]

The union can't stop communities choosing money over quality. There are hard facts that demonstrate cardiac arrest survival is better with FDNY on scene than an all voluntary arrest yet they are still looking to cut more ambulance tours and turn them over to the voluntaries. The union's job is to get get the best deal it can from its employees. If the company cannot be competitive it can take that to the unions during contract negotiation. Unions also have little control over the quality of the employees they represent. The company hires and then the union represents. You can't blame a union for Empress not being able to maintain the Mt. Vernon contract without being party to the actual bid. Was it purely a dollars issue or was there a performance standard that empress couldn't meet?

Either way, there will be no substantial changes in EMS in this area until transcare gets unionized. Pay and benefits are almost universally better in union shops, so why are people against the union? Transcare is the single largest employer of EMS in the area. They set the standard, and it hasn't substantially changed in years. I haven't seen the transcare anti union website and can't find it, but I have yet to hear a convincing argument against unionizing.

[firefighter36 52]

I think that there are quite a few underlying issues here. First and foremost, if a company is not making money, they cannot operate. That means they can't employ people, pay bills, etc. There have been plenty of EMS agencies (commercial and community based) that have had bad business leadership and are no longer in business.

Second, no matter what the contract, what the company, I always see the same people hopping around working 3-4 EMS jobs. If EMS wants the pay and recognition they deserve, everyone needs to stick to one job. Working per-diem, etc. will take overtime from another employee at another job.

Third, Commercial EMS is just that, COMMERCIAL. The company needs to make money to stay in business. 911 calls are not profitable. The business models that I have seen from Commercials for bidding 911 contracts are inherently flawed in that they all rely on insurance collection to make up the balance between the contract fee and the break-even point. Show me another industry where the break-even point and the initial fee have such a variable. A commercial ambulance is similar to a taxi in that, if the vehicle is not moving with a paying passenger, than it is not making money for the company. I hate to reduce it to such a low, but that is the very root of the business. The training, patient care, and job are all respectable and necessary and honorable, but a commercial ambulance is there to make money for the company. Without that, nobody gets paid. Period.

Fourth, collective bargaining is just that, bargaining. Its give and take. I am a union officer, and I have negotiated contracts. I took labor relations class in college, and I have been to numerous seminars, trainings, etc. to do with collective bargaining, both from a union and management standpoint. The easiest way to describe collective bargaining to a novice is to imagine a pizza. The cheese, sauce, toppings can all be changed, even the size of the slices can be changed, but the medium sized crust can't get any bigger without more dough (money.) If the union demands too much, the company cannot stay alive. Look at the auto companies.

Finally, EMS deserves more respect, we all know that. 911 EMS needs to be provided on a town, city, village, county level with career, volunteer, some combination of staffing that keeps ambulances staffed to respond to 911 calls. Following NYS law, some agencies can also bill for cost recovery from insurance carriers to help soften the hit to taxpayers. If it is a career agency, the employees deserve competitive wages and benefits that make it worth going to work. If the company is making huge profits, off the backs of its employees, and not increasing compensation, and not providing safe and fair working conditions, then maybe the employees need to unionize so they have a voice. There is nothing wrong with unionization as long as things stay honest and fair. I know many corporations and employers would tell their employees otherwise for fear of having to keep things on the up and up.

I think that the overwhelming thing here is that municipalities must provide 911 EMS in some fashion as part of a full-circle public safety umbrella. It is unfortunate that the decision makers don't always view this as an important thing, but then again, it is something that is not seen until it is called and needed.

Edited November 28, 2009 by mbendel36

[jcoppola 52]

This is an interesting topic, and one that was visited several years ago in Norwalk. About 10 or 11 years ago, my Local IAFF affiliate, Local 830, voted to allow the Norwalk Hospital Paramedics and EMTs the right to inquire with thier administration about joining our Local. You could just imagine how that request was handled. From what I heard, and can remember, the Hospital wanted absolutely no part of their employees unionizing. I also heard some of the employees at the time were opposed to it.

Our union was in favor of it. It would only make us stronger, and it would help the Paramedics negotiate better contracts. No doubt it would put them at an advantage with gaining and keeping benefits.

Here's something to check out: National Labor Relations Act. This act gives employees the legal, constitutional right to establish a labor union in a workplace.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The union can't stop communities choosing money over quality.

Very true. During a proposal for a higher quality EMS system a city manager stated to me: "they all say NYS Certified on the back, we don't need to pay for better quality than that". As long as that is the position of the person contracting the service money will always be the factor.

Unions also have little control over the quality of the employees they represent. The company hires and then the union represents.

This is not completely true, If the union is strong enough on a statewie level they can lobby for (and have) stronger standards. We have all seen commercial services who have hired medics who should be working at McDonalds and not EMS, we have also all seen medics with the ink still wet hired and ut on the street when a slot needed to be filled (even if the copany "standards" normally required a break in period).

Most agencies like to point out how progressive they are. What special skills there medics can do. None even acknoledge that some of there medics are "border line" and when you add those sills, it maybe beyond there abilities. Consider this system: you have been autorized to start a new service and hire 30 medics. The community wants the best and will pay medics $250,000/yr. you get to hire the best 30 medics in the world. One will still be the worst of the 30 and the system must realize that (even if he/she is better than all the other medics in the world).

Either way, there will be no substantial changes in EMS in this area until transcare gets unionized. Pay and benefits are almost universally better in union shops, so why are people against the union? Transcare is the single largest employer of EMS in the area. They set the standard, and it hasn't substantially changed in years.

I have worked full time for 4 different EMS services (as a medic). 2 union, 1 non-union and 1 was union and the employees decertified and went non-union. The non-union jobs paid better (1 much better) and the job that decertified paid the ame before and after, but I got to keep my dues.

All that being said: I am pro union, an active member both locally and on the state level and I believe unions can be very effective, but they must be large enough to lobby the state to change laws and set the stage. IAFF & PBA's are. EMS unions are too small for the state to even notice.

[gamewell45 258]

I know that the IAEP R-20 Local (Yonkers) has saved a lot of jobs in the past, and has given employees the voice, and fearlessness to question things they don't like at Empress, but a union is only as strong as it's people in it.

You hit the nail right on the head.

The union will only be as strong as the membership who are part of it. A strong membership base will result in a strong contract; a weak one will also be reflected in the contract. Either way your better off with a union; at least you know what the rules are and they can't change them in mid-stream like many of them like to do when it comes to benefits or disciplinary measures.

[helicopper 1,050]

I have worked full time for 4 different EMS services (as a medic). 2 union, 1 non-union and 1 was union and the employees decertified and went non-union. The non-union jobs paid better (1 much better) and the job that decertified paid the ame before and after, but I got to keep my dues.

All that being said: I am pro union, an active member both locally and on the state level and I believe unions can be very effective, but they must be large enough to lobby the state to change laws and set the stage. IAFF & PBA's are. EMS unions are too small for the state to even notice.

Well said, I too worked for non-union shops where the pay was better than at comparable union shops so that is a good point.

Most PBA's are even too small (obviously NYPD is an exception) to be recognized by the state; that's why they have joined associations of PBA's to form a larger base and louder voice.

I believe that you get what you pay for and most communities try to do EMS on the cheap instead of trying to invest in a quality program. Until that changes, it won't matter whether you're union or not, you're still at the mercy of elected officials who don't give a darn about you or the system.

[Bnechis 3,961]

strong membership base will result in a strong contract; a weak one will also be reflected in the contract.

The strongest membership in the world will only get what the market will bear. Thats why union EMS does not do drimatically better than nonunion, and as I previously wrote, sometimes works the other way.

Either way your better off with a union; at least you know what the rules are and they can't change them in mid-stream like many of them like to do when it comes to benefits or disciplinary measures.

The main reason for unions was and will always be, when the employees feel that managment is not looking after them. When managers understand the value of the workforce and set clear policies and compinsation employees will never want a union. Too bad so many managers do not understand this. When I worked for a hospital based non-union job 1199 wanted to come in and organize us. The CEO allowed 1199 to meet with every employee and post materials, then we had to vote on the union. over 6,000 employees vote, less than 150 vor the union. Why? The summer before 1199 went on strike at HHC citywide for 6 weeks or so. We were to get our annual raise during that time. The CEO advised us it would be delayed, but do not worry. about 6 weeks later, 1199 settled with HHC and the next day we got our raise, it was 1/2% higher than the % 1199 got, with retroactive pay and we did not lose 6 weeks of pay. Our CEO understood how to take care of us and we understood that the union could not help us.

You maybe much better off with a union, but it is clearly not written in stone. I believe the IAFF has done a pretty good job of moving the fire service forward, same for the state and the same for the PBA's and state PBA associations. I still have yet to see that unions provide EMS the same advantages.

Can anyone answer what the pay ranges are at TC (non-union) and empress (union)? I think if the ranges are similar my point is proven.

[gamewell45 258]

The strongest membership in the world will only get what the market will bear.

You maybe much better off with a union, but it is clearly not written in stone. I believe the IAFF has done a pretty good job of moving the fire service forward, same for the state and the same for the PBA's and state PBA associations. I still have yet to see that unions provide EMS the same advantages.

Agreed. If the union tries to get more then the market will support, then they are doing their members a dis-service. While monetary compensation is a primary concern for most members, likeswise, job security, benefits, a greivence procedure, training, safety and quality of life issues should also be a concern. These are benefits that a union can bring you if thats what the membership desires and some of them are of little cost to the employer.

While the IAFF and various PBA's have done a good job moving the fire service forward, they like any other organization had to start off small and work towards what they are today. I don't think there is any reason why EMS unions cannot become a strong enitity in their field and give close to if not the same advantages that their counterparts in the Fire & Police enjoy today.

[jcoppola 52]

Good topic. Great discussions and some good insight.

Keep it up.

JVC

[NWFDMedic 58]

The IAEP definitely leaves a lot to be desired. I can remember when they came into Sloper. They kept telling people "Do you want to make $20/hr, vote union". At that time, that figure was significantly out of joint with other services in the Hudson Valley. Of course, all the young kids and those who didn't know any better saw dollar signs saw this as a very attractive option.

I can remember reading the contract proposal prior to a meeting at the Holiday Inn with the IAEP people. Not only did the contract include pay raises that Sloper would be unable to provide, it also included forced practices that would drive up the cost of overtime significantly. To make matters worse, the contract was full of misspellings, grammatical mistakes, and inaccuracies. I brought a marked up copy of the contract to the meeting only to be shut down when I tried to ask questions.

The end result of the union presence at Sloper was bankruptcy. The good employees and senior employees at Sloper were offered jobs at Alamo but generally got a raw deal if they went over to Alamo. A lot of people worked at Sloper for the very reason that it wasn't Alamo, now the union (and bad management practices) left them without their company. Several years later, many of those same employees have seen Alamo go by the wayside as well and, of course, another raw deal if they decided to go to TransCare.

I'm neither for nor against unions. Clearly they are beneficial in some situations and not in others. I think it's more about labor and management working together to provide the best for the employee while maintaining the resources for organizational advancement. That can happen in either union or non-union shops and it can also fail in both situations.

[Guest]

Wow!!!

How did you ever post so much misinformation in just one post?

Sloper was in the red long before the IAEP was invited in by fed up employees. I know, I was there. IAEP never promised raises, let alone $20/hour. I know, I was there. Regardless of what promises from the IAEP you heard about, none of them ever came to fruition. Once Frank made the force driving Sloper towards the IAEP (Read as: Nitin Natarajan) a field supervisor, the IAEP just fizzled and disappeared. I know, I was there.

At least you got correct the part about bad management practices driving Sloper-Willen into the ground.

[gamewell45 258]

I can remember reading the contract proposal prior to a meeting at the Holiday Inn with the IAEP people. Not only did the contract include pay raises that Sloper would be unable to provide, it also included forced practices that would drive up the cost of overtime significantly. To make matters worse, the contract was full of misspellings, grammatical mistakes, and inaccuracies. I brought a marked up copy of the contract to the meeting only to be shut down when I tried to ask questions.

I'm neither for nor against unions. Clearly they are beneficial in some situations and not in others. I think it's more about labor and management working together to provide the best for the employee while maintaining the resources for organizational advancement. That can happen in either union or non-union shops and it can also fail in both situations.

I think there is more to this then meets the eye; I find it hard to believe that Sloper would agree to pay raises in a contract that they could not afford nor forced practices what would drive up the cost of overtime; Obviously they agreed to the various clauses in the contract or if not they would not be in the contract. You can't blame the union for that; if the union proposed and the company accepted, then they have only themselves to blame.

Bargaining is supposed to be done rationally; why in the world would any union make demands that would guarantee putting the employer out of business; why put your members out of work?? Its out of the realm of reality. You know that the employer had attorney's sitting in on all sessions to look after the company's best interests. As mentioned elsewhere, I suspect they are correct in that Sloper had existing problems.

As far as being neither for or against unions, that's like saying your for motherhood but against children (thank you Harry S. Truman). Unions in most aspects are like having an insurance policy; you hope you never need to use it but if you do its there for you. There's certainly no reason why labor and management can't form a working partnership and work together; just as long as you have a union to look after your best interests.

As a side note, all executives of major corporations have Personal Service Agreements (PSA's) which are labor agreements, detailing their terms and conditions of employment, pay raises, benefits, stock options, severance parachute, perks, etc. So my question to you is: How come they need a labor contract and rank and file does not? Food for thought.

Edited November 29, 2009 by gamewell45

[Goose 188]

I think there is more to this then meets the eye; I find it hard to believe that Sloper would agree to pay raises in a contract that they could not afford nor forced practices what would drive up the cost of overtime; Obviously they agreed to the various clauses in the contract or if not they would not be in the contract. You can't blame the union for that; if the union proposed and the company accepted, then they have only themselves to blame.

Bargaining is supposed to be done rationally; why in the world would any union make demands that would guarantee putting the employer out of business; why put your members out of work?? Its out of the realm of reality. You know that the employer had attorney's sitting in on all sessions to look after the company's best interests. As mentioned elsewhere, I suspect they are correct in that Sloper had existing problems.

As far as being neither for or against unions, that's like saying your for motherhood but against children (thank you Harry S. Truman). Unions in most aspects are like having an insurance policy; you hope you never need to use it but if you do its there for you. There's certainly no reason why labor and management can't form a working partnership and work together; just as long as you have a union to look after your best interests.

As a side note, all executives of major corporations have Personal Service Agreements (PSA's) which are labor agreements, detailing their terms and conditions of employment, pay raises, benefits, stock options, severance parachute, perks, etc. So my question to you is: How come they need a labor contract and rank and file does not? Food for thought.

From where i stand, there really isn't any union worth having in EMS right now. In the five or so years i've been working career EMS i've never had or felt the need to have a union and have always had a solid working relationship with the bosses - i've worked a number of systems and locales and have never been screwed by a shift boss or management. That said, would a union that fought for better wages, benefits, equipment, vehicles, safety, etc. and raised the bar for patient care be nice? Sure, no question. If there was a union that existed for EMS like that i would surely vote for it in a heart beat.

But right now, nothing exists that has the power and command to get the above stated done. I don't want to be part of the PBA, IAFF, Teamsters, or anything of the sort because i'm not a police officer, firefighter/fire officer or a tradesman - and as such i'm not sure those organizations would have the best interests of my partners and i in mind.

That said, the EMS Union issue is tightly linked to a number of other issues concerning EMS. Until some serious change happens in washington or albany concerning EMS, i just don't see any organization capable of representing me.

[ems-buff 81]

That said, the EMS Union issue is tightly linked to a number of other issues concerning EMS. Until some serious change happens in washington or albany concerning EMS, i just don't see any organization capable of representing me.

Goose what are some "issues" as you see it,in ether the state or federal level, That need to be change?

[WAS967 97]

Well since this thread is about Unions, and prompted by the Transcare stuff, I'll ask the following:

What were the results of the IAEP unionization vote made by NYC 911 Transcare employees?

The votes were due to be opened and read today.

[WAS967 97]

For those interested, the IAEP lost the organization vote in the NYC:

99 FOR

127 AGAINST

[rickperry99 8]

For those interested, the IAEP lost the organization vote in the NYC:

99 FOR

127 AGAINST

No surprise there.

[ny10570 745]

What's really disturbing is that only 226 voted.

[gamewell45 258]

What's really disturbing is that only 226 voted.

It happens; some are afraid or too lazy to vote.

While it wasn't exactly a close vote, at least a year from now if things haven't improved or if they've gotten worse, then the union can re-visit and if enough support is present, then they can petition for another election. I"ve seen that happen before and the union came back and won the second time around.