Petition the President

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Saw a piece on the news yesterday. the founder of TheBravest.com has started a petition to obama to stop these reckless trials in NYC, and not give an international stage to these terrorists who masterminded the 9/11 attacks, brutally cut off Wall Street reporter Daniel Pearl's head in Pakistan, etc.

10,000 signatures yesterday. Join up if you believe giving these murderers an American trial with some lib lawyer like Ron Kuby trying to get them off on some technicality, is an abomination of American justice. Give these murderers the military tribunals at Gitmo that they deserve.

http://www.thebravest.com/neverforget.htm

http://www.thebravest.com/ObamaLetter110909.htm

[ny10570 745]

After 6 years, 5 of which were under a Republican administration the military courts were not working. NYC Federal courts have proven track record convicting the terrorists responsible for the first WTC attack, embassy bombings and the millennium plotters. We finally have some closure. As far as the efficiency of military courts, no executions since the 60's even though they have had men on death row since the 80's. Good luvk clearing that log jam to get to these guys.

[Goose 188]

After 6 years, 5 of which were under a Republican administration the military courts were not working. NYC Federal courts have proven track record convicting the terrorists responsible for the first WTC attack, embassy bombings and the millennium plotters. We finally have some closure. As far as the efficiency of military courts, no executions since the 60's even though they have had men on death row since the 80's. Good luvk clearing that log jam to get to these guys.

That made me laugh. I'm not sure what closure you speak of, either. I still have vacant seats at my holiday dinner tables and these slugs are alive, well and entitled to civilian court privileges. We already tried treating the issue of terrorism as a law enforcement issue, and look how far that got us. We got what we need out of these people, now lets put one in their head and two in their chest and call it a day.

Thanks for posting EFDCapt, much appreciated.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Goose

[efdcapt115 1,511]

After 6 years, 5 of which were under a Republican administration the military courts were not working. NYC Federal courts have proven track record convicting the terrorists responsible for the first WTC attack, embassy bombings and the millennium plotters. We finally have some closure. As far as the efficiency of military courts, no executions since the 60's even though they have had men on death row since the 80's. Good luvk clearing that log jam to get to these guys.

With all due respect, did you happen to read the signed names on the original petition? Mostly 9/11 family members. Did you read the connection between A.G. Eric Holder's former lawfirm and Yemen? The question is; shall we support the 9/11 families position, or shall we give American civil liberties to people that plotted war from foreign soil?

Did we do that at Neurenburg?

[ny10570 745]

Goose I'm sorry to hear about your loss, but don't for a second assume my views are coming from some ACLU loving bed wetting liberal with no connection to that day.

Personally I'm disgusted at how long this has taken. Military or civilian courts so long as they receive an adequate defense I could give a crap. Why do I care they get an adequate defense, because I'm sick of hearing about them and their plight. I want them buried in a hole until the end of their life at the tip of a needle or however it comes. I don't want an appellate judge with an agenda to give them a second chance. I cannot indulge in a fantasy of dreams and desires where the animals who are responsible for any American death are caught, proven guilty, and quickly removed from this Earth. The reality is, its been 6 years since Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was captured and we are no closer to ending this than were that day.

The Nazis never made war on American soil. Embassy bombers, the first WTC bombers, and terror plotters are among the nearly 200 who have all been successfully tried in Federal courts. These animals are guilty and American Civil Rights will not prevent them from being punished.

[ex-commish 490]

The Nazis never made war on American soil. Embassy bombers, the first WTC bombers, and terror plotters are among the nearly 200 who have all been successfully tried in Federal courts. These animals are guilty and American Civil Rights will not prevent them from being punished.

We are in a diferent era. We have an administration which will not consider what happened in Fort Hood a terorist act. According to our president there is no war on terror. My concern is their so called civil rights will play a factor during thier trial.

[Goose 188]

NY10570 - i don't think any of that. I just respectfully disagree.

I'm sick an tired of hearing that these people (not sure they even deserve that much) have rights. If you ask me, they gave those rights up the second the committed themselves to a life of terror.

Moving this into the civilian sector really scares me and here is why:

1) What sort of additional security thread does this add to an already large target and how will this impact/effect every day life (ie: pulling cops from patrol to deal with moving this guy in and out of the court house, does NY become a fatter target with a personality like khalid sheikh mohammed living in downtown manhattan)?

2) Any defense lawyer that defends him is going to bring up water-boarding (which i have absolutely no problem with), we know that the libs pissed and moaned about this and it took this technique for him to spill his guts - will anything he admitted after being water-boarded be admissible? If not, how bad will this muck up the US prosecution? Look how many times it took the government to prosecute John Gotti Jr - they won't get it right and i fear the day that justice is adverted because of some bull$hit technicality or a poor prosecution..

Like i said earlier, terrorism and terrorists are not a law enforcement issue. It is a national security issue and should be dealt with via military channels. It's a testament to this country's morality and principled existance that these guys are even still alive.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Goose

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

NY10570 - i don't think any of that. I just respectfully disagree.

I'm sick an tired of hearing that these people (not sure they even deserve that much) have rights. If you ask me, they gave those rights up the second the committed themselves to a life of terror.

Moving this into the civilian sector really scares me and here is why:

1) What sort of additional security thread does this add to an already large target and how will this impact/effect every day life (ie: pulling cops from patrol to deal with moving this guy in and out of the court house, does NY become a fatter target with a personality like khalid sheikh mohammed living in downtown manhattan)?

2) Any defense lawyer that defends him is going to bring up water-boarding (which i have absolutely no problem with), we know that the libs pissed and moaned about this and it took this technique for him to spill his guts - will anything he admitted after being water-boarded be admissible? If not, how bad will this muck up the US prosecution? Look how many times it took the government to prosecute John Gotti Jr - they won't get it right and i fear the day that justice is adverted because of some bull$hit technicality or a poor prosecution..

Like i said earlier, terrorism and terrorists are not a law enforcement issue. It is a national security issue and should be dealt with via military channels. It's a testament to this country's morality and principled existance that these guys are even still alive.

It has been proven that torture is not a reliable technique when it comes to interrogation or intelligence gathering. It has been shown that those tortured for information give up false or misleading information under that kind of duress just to make the torture to stop. It only legitimizes terrorists actions and damages our reputation as a fair, free and human country when we engage in forms of torture. When we as a nation engage in torture for intelligence gathering we break some of very laws that this nation was founded on.

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/etn/2008/alert/313/

Edited November 16, 2009 by bvfdjc316

[nycemt728 49]

"1) What sort of additional security thread does this add to an already large target and how will this impact/effect every day life (ie: pulling cops from patrol to deal with moving this guy in and out of the court house, does NY become a fatter target with a personality like khalid sheikh mohammed living in downtown manhattan)?"

The papers clearly stated the defendants will be moved via internal tunnels from the detention center to the courthouse, no extra protection or chance of attack in that regard...complain all you want, but get the facts straight. Are you suggesting that the NYPD can not capably assist and supplement the U.S. Marshals?

[Goose 188]

BVFD, i've heard all the talking points but thanks for the refresh.

I don't care if you teleport the SOB, it still puts NY at an increased risk, in my opinion. And i said nothing of the NYPD - i've got blood on all jobs (PD, FD, EMS) as well as close friends....i don't want to see them or anyone unnecessarily and ignorantly put at an increased risk so our President and his administration can grandstand their moral fortitude.

Like i said a few posts back, put one in the head and two in the chest for good measure and let's be done with it.

[FFLieu 70]

Whether or not the Southern District of New York is the appropriate venue, what I can say is this: The United States Attorney's Office could indict and prosecute a ham sandwich if they so chose, so I highly doubt some "lib lawyer" would get this guy off.

[ec255 22]

The whole thing is a liberal abomination. I'm not particularly concerned with the security/threat aspect- it is the fact that we are going to extend constitutional rights to terrorists- non citizen terrorsists at that!If they appear for a Federal trial shouldn't due process have been followed? Mirandized, lawyered up, speedy trial etc? The discovery and release of classified information and sources could be devastating to our security. If we are not going to extend these rights then why bother doing this at all? A military tribunal would be just fine. Are our soldiers going to have to start cuffing and mirandizing these scum suckers on the battlefield? It's sick.

[Stench60 29]

" The Nazis never made war on American soil. "

Actually they did. They were then taken before a military tribunal, tried according to the laws of war, sentenced and executed; with the two saboteurs who had turned themselves in receiving lengthy terms at Ft. Leavenworth. This was perfectly in keeping with our legal system.

The fact is these individuals are in no way shape or form " criminals ", they have committed acts of war on the people of the United States,while all the while taking safety in their ability to blend into the general population by never openly declaring themselves combatants or wearing any article of uniform to openly display their combatant status. As such, the United States would be perfectly within it's rights to immediately execute anyone found under arms in such an illegal state. To equate these individuals constitutionally with someone who knocked over the corner liquor store is asinine to say the least.

The military tribunal system was established by congress, authorized by the President and found to be perfectly legal by the supreme court. If the rest of the world finds fault with it, so be it. Our constitution is not a suicide pact! Supreme court justices from Robert Jackson back knew this to be true. It was only with the accension of Earl Warren and the rise of the liberal courts of the 60's to the present that anyone saw it differently. Jefferson himself said that national survival superseded the constitution. The present administration knows that these individuals have innumerable grounds for appeal if and when convicted. For gods sake the United States Attorney General, Eric Holder, was involved in numerous organisations that worked for the release of all the Guantanamo detainees. This alone begs the question of why he did not recuse himself from this matter. Additionally, there is absolutely no possibility that this was not done without the direct knowledge and authorisation of the President.

To honestly believe that these people will respect us for " rule of law" is the height of ignorance. For 20 years this country dealt with this as a criminal matter, where did it get us? 9/11....

They respect blunt, brutal force. They will mock and bite the hand that feeds them, they will respect a clenched fist.

[Goose 188]

" The Nazis never made war on American soil. "

Actually they did. They were then taken before a military tribunal, tried according to the laws of war, sentenced and executed; with the two saboteurs who had turned themselves in receiving lengthy terms at Ft. Leavenworth. This was perfectly in keeping with our legal system.

The fact is these individuals are in no way shape or form " criminals ", they have committed acts of war on the people of the United States,while all the while taking safety in their ability to blend into the general population by never openly declaring themselves combatants or wearing any article of uniform to openly display their combatant status. As such, the United States would be perfectly within it's rights to immediately execute anyone found under arms in such an illegal state. To equate these individuals constitutionally with someone who knocked over the corner liquor store is asinine to say the least.

The military tribunal system was established by congress, authorized by the President and found to be perfectly legal by the supreme court. If the rest of the world finds fault with it, so be it. Our constitution is not a suicide pact! Supreme court justices from Robert Jackson back knew this to be true. It was only with the accension of Earl Warren and the rise of the liberal courts of the 60's to the present that anyone saw it differently. Jefferson himself said that national survival superseded the constitution. The present administration knows that these individuals have innumerable grounds for appeal if and when convicted. For gods sake the United States Attorney General, Eric Holder, was involved in numerous organisations that worked for the release of all the Guantanamo detainees. This alone begs the question of why he did not recuse himself from this matter. Additionally, there is absolutely no possibility that this was not done without the direct knowledge and authorisation of the President.

To honestly believe that these people will respect us for " rule of law" is the height of ignorance. For 20 years this country dealt with this as a criminal matter, where did it get us? 9/11....

They respect blunt, brutal force. They will mock and bite the hand that feeds them, they will respect a clenched fist.

I may just frame this and hang it on my while. Strong work!

[ny10570 745]

NYC was the #1 target before 9/11, after 9/11, and will still be the number 1 target tomorrow. Terror trial or no terror trial we're the target. All that changes which target in NYC is top.

Can we at least expect the US to not be hypocrites. In 1995 an American, Lori Berenson, was arrested in Peru and charged with leading a local militant group the country had identified as terrorists. In Peru anyone accused of actively engaging in or supporting terrorism is tried in a military tribunal. Appropriately enough the US State Dept demanded Peru cease and she be tried in open court according to established international treaties. She was convicted of treason and leading a terrorist cell. She was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. After years of continued pressure by both the Clinton and Bush administrations she was granted a civil trial where sentence was reduced to 20 years after the court found various flaws in the original prosecution. I believe she did what she was eventually convicted of in civil court. Lets face it, not all Americans are good people. We have no cleared example right now than Hasan. However there are Americans all over the world who could easily become innocent victims of an over zealous government without the protection of the same international treaties were looking to violate.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

NYC was the #1 target before 9/11, after 9/11, and will still be the number 1 target tomorrow. Terror trial or no terror trial we're the target. All that changes which target in NYC is top.

Can we at least expect the US to not be hypocrites. In 1995 an American, Lori Berenson, was arrested in Peru and charged with leading a local militant group the country had identified as terrorists. In Peru anyone accused of actively engaging in or supporting terrorism is tried in a military tribunal. Appropriately enough the US State Dept demanded Peru cease and she be tried in open court according to established international treaties. She was convicted of treason and leading a terrorist cell. She was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. After years of continued pressure by both the Clinton and Bush administrations she was granted a civil trial where sentence was reduced to 20 years after the court found various flaws in the original prosecution. I believe she did what she was eventually convicted of in civil court. Lets face it, not all Americans are good people. We have no cleared example right now than Hasan. However there are Americans all over the world who could easily become innocent victims of an over zealous government without the protection of the same international treaties were looking to violate.

You know what? If this American woman was a terrorist in Peru, she should be in a Peruvian military jail for the rest of her life, and be thankful the gov't down there didn't take her out back and execute her by firing squad. Hypocracy be d@mned; KSM and his croonies deserved to be waterboarded to death. The h@ll with ANYBODY in this world that doesn't like it. And to have the PResident of the United States playing King of All @sskissers; the guy just BOWED to THE FREAKING EMPEROR OF JAPAN (THE PRESIDENT DOES NOT BOW TO ANYONE!!!!!!) or was his shoe untied again like it was in Saudi Arabia? It's embarrasing to watch. And you mark my words, KSM and these people WITH THE HELP OF TAXPAYER FUNDED PUBLIC DEFENDERS (Yes NOW WE WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THEIR LAWYERS TOO) are going to make a mockery of our "justice system" and laugh in the faces of the families who lost loved ones on 9/11. REALLY NICE.!!!!!! And this obama administration doesn't want to call the Ft. Hood attack an act of TERROR? Are these people on crack or just plain stupid?

My gf and I just moved to the Florida Keys because we are so sick of all the bulls#it going on in this country, we wanted to get as far away as possible. Next stop; we're thinking Costa Rica.

[gamewell45 258]

My gf and I just moved to the Florida Keys because we are so sick of all the bulls#it going on in this country, we wanted to get as far away as possible. Next stop; we're thinking Costa Rica.

Try Belize. The cost of living is a lot cheaper then it is in the USA.

[Goose 188]

Well, at least Gov. Patterson gets it. I've got to give him respect for that!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Live coverage on C-Span 3 right now 0930 hours 11/18/09

[wraftery 1,275]

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PRISONERS ARE AT GITMO BUT I KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THEM.

Quietly, without them knowing, unlock the gates. Their best and most corageous will try to escape.

Shoot to kill the first 343 of them. Wound all the rest for life.

NEVER FORGET...NEVER

[SgtGumby311 0]

I watched AG Eric Holder answer questions regarding the trial....Charles Schumer brought up the fact, that at minimum, it would cost $75 Mil, just to cover security...But don't worry, Holder said the gov't would pick up the tab!!

[Goose 188]

Thats the least of Holder or our problems...when asked if there was legal precedent for this...we got the response "ughhhh....i dunno....."

[NJMedic 96]

After 6 years, 5 of which were under a Republican administration the military courts were not working. NYC Federal courts have proven track record convicting the terrorists responsible for the first WTC attack, embassy bombings and the millennium plotters. We finally have some closure.

The word "Closure" in this sense should be striken from the dictionary.

[ny10570 745]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/opinion/18simon.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/opinion/18simon.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

Thank you for posting that....some interesting points addressed in this article.

Edited November 19, 2009 by bvfdjc316

[Goose 188]

Thank you for posting that....some interesting points addressed in this article.

Interesting points? Complete garbage.

Maybe you just can't/won't understand. I can't explain the feeling when they find bone fragments of you're loved ones on-top of a building or in a storm drain and all you have to bury can fit in a zip lock bag.

It was liberals who spit on my father when he returned home from Vietnam, it's liberals who left us with our pant's around our ankles in the 90s and allowed (in part) 9/11 to happen, and now it's the liberals who want to give terrorists the benefit of the doubt...

You people may have forgotten that day, tucked it away as long ago, but i can tell you that i live with it every day - in fact i make it a point not to forget. And there are thousands that do the same. It's just a DAMN shame that our leaders are not amongst that group.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Goose

[nycemt728 49]

Interesting points? Complete garbage.

Maybe you just can't/won't understand. I can't explain the feeling when they find bone fragments of you're loved ones on-top of a building or in a storm drain and all you have to bury can fit in a zip lock bag.

It was liberals who spit on my father when he returned home from Vietnam, it's liberals who left us with our pant's around our ankles in the 90s and allowed (in part) 9/11 to happen, and now it's the liberals who want to give terrorists the benefit of the doubt...

You people may have forgotten that day, tucked it away as long ago, but i can tell you that i live with it every day - in fact i make it a point not to forget. And there are thousands that do the same. It's just a DAMN shame that our leaders are not amongst that group.

I don't know where to begin. I don't think anyone here or elsewhere is saying forget that day, or suggesting that there were not a multitude of selfless acts that day, or that wounds are easy to heal. What the article, and other people are trying to to point out to those who "can't/won't understand" is that there is more to this trial that it appears. The moment we execute these men esp w/o any semblance of a trial, we give birth to the next ten generations of men like them...they want to die, why let them become martyrs??? Commit them to hard labor somewhere...and make their lives as unpleasant as possible. The whole point of being an American is to say and to live in a way that we do not stoop as low as they do. It does not matter where we try them, we will ALWAYS be a target of hate and for attack. We CAN NOT hunt down and kill every terrorist....so if we are damned, why not be damned and still live up to the way of life that so many are giving their lives for every day!

Edited November 19, 2009 by nycemt728

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I don't know where to begin. I don't think anyone here or elsewhere is saying forget that day, or suggesting that there were not a multitude of selfless acts that day, or that wounds are easy to heal. What the article, and other people are trying to to point out to those who "can't/won't understand" is that there is more to this trial that it appears. The moment we execute these men esp w/o any semblance of a trial, we give birth to the next ten generations of men like them...they want to die, why let them become martyrs??? Commit them to hard labor somewhere...and make their lives as unpleasant as possible. The whole point of being an American is to say and to live in a way that we do not stoop as low as they do. It does not matter where we try them, we we ALWAYS be a target of hate and for attack. We CAN NOT hunt down and kill every terrorist....so if we are damned, why not be damned and still live up to the way of life that so many are giving their lives for every day!

Thank you.....your points about executing him are exactly spot on. Yes Goose you are angry, yes you want justice, yes we all want justice, but what is justice if it is not that, just. We must pull out all of the stops on this one ensuring that this dirt bag has a fighting chance so we don't spawn the next suicide bombers that will inevitably arise if we stoop down to their level. We must show them that they can do all of what they do to us but in the end none of their actions are going to change what we do. By subverting the rule of law in this country we send the message that we are barbaric and lawless as they are and what they are doing is working. If we really want to end this debate, let him get tried, let him get convicted, then lets send him back to Gitmo or maybe Alaska, somewhere cold. We give credence to those who seek to do us harm if we do not do what is right based on the morals, standards and values this country was founded on and blood is shed up to this day for.

Edited November 19, 2009 by bvfdjc316

[gamewell45 258]

Interesting points? Complete garbage.

It was liberals who spit on my father when he returned home from Vietnam, it's liberals who left us with our pant's around our ankles in the 90s and allowed (in part) 9/11 to happen, and now it's the liberals who want to give terrorists the benefit of the doubt...

You people may have forgotten that day, tucked it away as long ago, but i can tell you that i live with it every day - in fact i make it a point not to forget. And there are thousands that do the same. It's just a DAMN shame that our leaders are not amongst that group.

Goose,

You need to relax. Its quite easy to blame a political group for all the worlds ills as opposed to being part of the solution. If your unhappy with the job the government is doing, get involved, run for office and make a positive difference. I'm sure you've got some good ideas that the American people will have in common with you. Coming on EMTBravo.net and whining how bad things are accomplishes absolutely nothing.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Goose,

You need to relax. Its quite easy to blame a political group for all the worlds ills as opposed to being part of the solution. If your unhappy with the job the government is doing, get involved, run for office and make a positive difference. I'm sure you've got some good ideas that the American people will have in common with you. Coming on EMTBravo.net and whining how bad things are accomplishes absolutely nothing.

With all respect, Goose is in the proper forum to express his opinions, and I agree with him on many points. Some of the other posts here are self-conflicting. So the arguement is; we hold up to our "moral standards", give KSM a trial in the Southern District of NY Courthouse (I served on a grand jury in that building in 1983 and indicted quite a few criminals including a rogue CIA agent who was trying to sell weapons to Libyia), we try him and POSSIBLY convict him, then maybe execute him and that will prevent ten more generations of jihadis? As opposed to making him a martyr by giving him what HE wants, a military tribunal, where he will be executed. Hmm.

So we show the young Taliban that our "justice system" works, and that will prevent the jihad huh? I seriously doubt that one brothers. No matter what we do, they are going to continue to try and wage war on this country. They HATE our freedoms, they hate our society, and they could care less about where KSM is tried. WAKE UP. We are dealing with an enemy that willingly killed themselves to bring down the WTC. Their most popular fashion statement is a suicide vest, and their cowardly way of waging war is planting IEDs.

Taliban and their murderous cohorts only respect one thing; the ability to do violence. This will not change during this or subsequent generations; so we should all suck it up, REMEMBER what happened, and continue to pursue these men until they do not have the ability to fight us anymore. Our Generals and troops are waiting for more soldiers in Afghanistan; this President should get off his high horse and make a decision about how many more to get in there to get the job done.

The saying is; Afghanistan has never been conquered, and it brings down Empires. We are a Republic, a Democracy, but we are not an Empire. We do not conquer; we destroy the enemy and help rebuild countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, and give the place back to the people. Want an example? How about Japan or Germany?

This AG has conflicts of interest; his former law firm represents Yemeni nationals like the hoodlums accompanying KSM. He should have recused himself from this case. Instead, he and the current administration have opened the door to allow terrorists to possibly walk away from justice. All it takes is one juror. Let's say we get a jihadi sympathizer on the jury. He tells no one of his secret hatred for this country. BANG. Game over, KSM gets a mistrial, and the millions of dollars it just took to uphold our "morals and principles" goes down the drain.

Opening the door of our Republic and the rights entitled to it's citizens to wartime criminals from other countries is the biggest mistake EVER made during a war. The President may be a bright young guy, a smart college guy; but he don't know s#it about how to beat these jihadis, and he'd better start listening to those who do, or we are in serious trouble.