First line In With TIC

[hudson144 150]

Again another firefighter was injured because he fell through the floor, a previous post about the 1st line is was closed but i wanted to mention this again because of the recent incident in Toledo OH. The firefighter possibly not aware of a basement fire fell through a hole burnt through the flooring. Again the importance of the TIC is unmeasurable, a valuable tool to possibly recognize a hole in the flooring. Again if we can all add to this we might help someone avoid a serious injury or death from falling through the floor.

[Remember585 815]

We've equipped all three of our Engine Companies with a TIC. The Officer is to take the TIC inside for all calls, even if it isn't needed, to make it a habit.

We were denied the TIC for our Truck this year, hopefully we can get it next year.

One thing worth reminding others of is the value of a 360 recon. You may not see anything to inidicate a basement fire from the front, but side or rear windows to the basement could tell you more of what's going on. Look for windows, Bilco doors and you can even take a quick peak for dryer vents to see if smoke is coming from them.

Firehouse.com story

[antiquefirelt 994]

One thing worth reminding others of is the value of a 360 recon. You may not see anything to inidicate a basement fire from the front, but side or rear windows to the basement could tell you more of what's going on. Look for windows, Bilco doors and you can even take a quick peak for dryer vents to see if smoke is coming from them.

Spot on. A good recon will likely tell you if the fire is in the basement, especially in frame dwellings. Between opens such as doors and windows, the joints at the sill/foundation are usually not tight enough to contain any smoke under pressure. Smoke coming from the siding low on the first floor should also raise your level of suspicion. Of course the TIC is a fine tool that can be invaluable, but is also not infallible. Knowing what to look for when the TIC fails is paramount.

[hudson144 150]

Recon 360 deg is key however at times this can not be done because of manpower, access for a 360 walkaround etc. To realize that you have a basement fire is a priority,if the IC knows that there is a basement fire the troops need to be notified and interior crews should be aware of possible floor failure,holes burn't through etc.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Please remember that situations dictate tactics. Most FD's don't have too many TICs so saying the engine officer should have one, is great unless it means the search crew goes without. What if we know where the fire is? Members searching above the fire, or unsupported are often in far more danger than members operating on the line. Use your resources as the situation requires. Get more TICs! Make sure everyone uses them all the time! You must learn what things look like through routinely viewing stuff with the TIC, if not you'll be slow and inefficient. Ensure you know what to do when the TIC fails, because it will! Make the walk around happen! Know to the best of your abilities the fire area or floor.

[FFPCogs 863]

I have to side with the "older" crowd here. Technology is great, valuable and even necessary, but NOT the end all be all of the game.

As mentioned a 360 should basically ALWAYS be done even with limited manpower, except when the building's construction prevents it or makes it impracticle Knowing where the fire is will greatly influence the use of that manpower as well as help idicate any unexpected circumstances. (Anyone remember the LODD fire in Pittsburgh where the front was at street level but the rear was a couple of floors below and no one knew). Once the line gets in action if the crew has a TIC great, but they should be trained to operate without one. When advancing the line stay low on one knee, the other foot out front feeling the way even in light smoke...listen to the stream as you make a sweep of the floor...look for any fire or smoke coming up from below and learn to know what a spongy floor feels like. Use the TIC if available by all means but don't come to rely on just that. Of far more value to me is the combined experience of the crew I'm working with and the training of how to operate without technology that has proven invaluable.

Cogs

[IzzyEng4 427]

Hudson, I did a search of the original and it was so far back that the forum software closed the topic since it was inactive for awhile. It's better to just continue the topic here with the new thread since people began to reply here.

As for my stance on this, a TIC is a great tool and any first in personnel should have it with them Though many departments don't have a TIC on every apparatus, one should be going in at least with the primary search team or Inside vent team together. Now before anyone says this may create a bottle neck, tactics have to be practiced and coordinated for it to work. With building construction the way it is, a fire below grade can have a major headway before the first arriving unit. Just like any military battle, it would be foolish just to rush in and attack. You a general need to know what you will be facing and depending on the size of the building, you will need to determine how many people will have to do that "size-up". Each situation is different and has to be handled differently but there is no need to rush in.

[helicopper 1,050]

We've equipped all three of our Engine Companies with a TIC. The Officer is to take the TIC inside for all calls, even if it isn't needed, to make it a habit.

One thing worth reminding others of is the value of a 360 recon. You may not see anything to inidicate a basement fire from the front, but side or rear windows to the basement could tell you more of what's going on. Look for windows, Bilco doors and you can even take a quick peak for dryer vents to see if smoke is coming from them.

<a href="http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=66423" target="_blank">Firehouse.com story</a>

Great post. Creating a culture where the TIC is used routinely provides two benefits - one, it's being used as a matter of course and not "oh yeah, go get that thing out of the dusty box on the engine, and two, it's training everytime it is used. I've harped on the need to regularly use it to learn how to interpet the data that it provides so you know when something unusual is going on. If you only break it out once in a while you can miss a lot of info.

The issue of not relying on technology is well stated to and that's why the 360 degree visual recon (when possible) is so crucial too. (And for your crusty old guys who hate anything that requires batteries or has an on/off switch!!! )

Bottom line is that combining the use of sound fireground tactics with the use of the best available technology is the best recipe for a successful conclusion.

[JFLYNN 681]

Some excellent points have been made in this thread.

A few I would add:

1. When you can't see where you are placing your foot, CRAWL! (Possible exception to this would be the nozzle man and backup man who, while advancing the line, may do the duckwalk technique previoulsy discussed)

2. The idea of a 360 recon is nice, but is often impractical...aim to get a look at at least 3 sides of the building before entering...the time you take to get an immediate look at the 4th side of the building when it is not readily accessible could allow the fire to grow exponentially and could mean the difference between life and death for anyone still inside.

3. CRAWL!!

4. Incident Commander should assign members early on to get a look at the back of the building and communicate findings to everyone on the fireground (again, this may not be practical to assign to first due Engine or Ladder Companies).

5. CRAWL!!!

6. Develop a mindset of constantly sizing up the building from a six-sided perspective. This doesn't mean you need to actually see all six-sides (all four "sides" plus what is above you and what is below you), but rather that you are "situationally aware" of there being six sides the building and that all members on the fireground are continually assessing and communicating to one another fire and smoke location, structural integrity, etc.

The biggestmistake we make is not knowing what exacctly is going on below us and getting caught above the fire sometimes.

7. CRAWL!!!!

[FiftyOnePride 100]

The biggestmistake we make is not knowing what exacctly is going on below us and getting caught above the fire sometimes.

In general, a lack of size-up from all aspects of fire ground operations can be a real hazard, even if one little thing is missed by several layers, the potential for nasty things becomes larger. Situational awareness I have found is a built-in trait for some, and a very hard thing for others to acquire, how do we teach these people such things?

I try to convey a 'big picture' kind of approach to it, try and break the tunnel that they might see with via a deep breath and a hopefully mentally regimented system before the incident.

[Guest truckiehand]

The TIC is one of the best tools we have on our rigs now, but training is even better, we have talked about the need to remember the basics, but also remember that the screen(hence victims) looks a lot different from the stations house to a working fire. We must train in live fire environments with the TIC or we will never know that in live fire conditions the victims is going to be the coolest things, not the hottest object, or that when looking for a downed firefighter in a collapse or flashover situation looks for the cool SCBA tank on his back not his outline which could be obstructed. Train often, but more importantly train realistically! Stay Safe.

[FFPCogs 863]

Some excellent points have been made in this thread.

A few I would add:

1. When you can't see where you are placing your foot, CRAWL! (Possible exception to this would be the nozzle man and backup man who, while advancing the line, may do the duckwalk technique previoulsy discussed)

2. The idea of a 360 recon is nice, but is often impractical...aim to get a look at at least 3 sides of the building before entering...the time you take to get an immediate look at the 4th side of the building when it is not readily accessible could allow the fire to grow exponentially and could mean the difference between life and death for anyone still inside.

3. CRAWL!!

4. Incident Commander should assign members early on to get a look at the back of the building and communicate findings to everyone on the fireground (again, this may not be practical to assign to first due Engine or Ladder Companies).

5. CRAWL!!!

6. Develop a mindset of constantly sizing up the building from a six-sided perspective. This doesn't mean you need to actually see all six-sides (all four "sides" plus what is above you and what is below you), but rather that you are "situationally aware" of there being six sides the building and that all members on the fireground are continually assessing and communicating to one another fire and smoke location, structural integrity, etc.

The biggestmistake we make is not knowing what exacctly is going on below us and getting caught above the fire sometimes.

7. CRAWL!!!!

Hey Chief what was that again...CRAWL???...LOL

ok enough comedy

Here's a few other tips when operating at basement fires in most PDs.

First off stretch enough hose inside the building on the floor above or flaked out in line with the basement steps to make the basement, you don't want to come up short on the stairs or only get a few feet in and have to manhandle the line to get at the fire.

Next when advancing the line down the stairs face front, even if that means going down step by step on your a**. Face the fire, nozzle at the ready in case it comes at you. You can hit it and advance or worst case make a hasty retreat under the protection of the line

Also when going down the stairs to search go down with your back towards the fire. With no line for protection if it comes at you, you are facing the direction you need to be to get out.

Cogs

Edited December 22, 2009 by FFPCogs

[JFLYNN 681]

In general, a lack of size-up from all aspects of fire ground operations can be a real hazard, even if one little thing is missed by several layers, the potential for nasty things becomes larger. Situational awareness I have found is a built-in trait for some, and a very hard thing for others to acquire, how do we teach these people such things?

I try to convey a 'big picture' kind of approach to it, try and break the tunnel that they might see with via a deep breath and a hopefully mentally regimented system before the incident.

Respectfully, from reading your post, and noticing your age,do you think that maybe you are a little overconfident about your own "situational awareness"?

[Guest]

That tunnel you speak of for some gets broken through education, for most others its broken through experience. As Chief JFLYNN states "CRAWL" sound the floor with your tool, feel for heat on your hands and knees etc. These actions need to automatic, these are basic. It sounds like your department is very busy, what's your job load?

In general, a lack of size-up from all aspects of fire ground operations can be a real hazard, even if one little thing is missed by several layers, the potential for nasty things becomes larger. Situational awareness I have found is a built-in trait for some, and a very hard thing for others to acquire, how do we teach these people such things?

I try to convey a 'big picture' kind of approach to it, try and break the tunnel that they might see with via a deep breath and a hopefully mentally regimented system before the incident.

[16fire5 693]

A 360 is nice and hopefully can get done ASAP. It's easy to get fooled with balloon construction because smoke and fire will show early from the eaves with basement fires. Failing to recognize the fire originated in the basement can put crews in greater danger if they fail to realize they are operating above the fire. As for advancing hoselines with private dwellings its best to flake the line out in the front yard and charge the line before comming in the front door. And for going down to the basement an option to consider depending on conditions is to have the nozzle firefighter quickly decend the stairs feet first without the line and have the backup hand the line down as soon and the nozzle man is down. It is extremely difficult to go down head first with the line in your hands and not get pushed down the stairs because at best you have one free hand. If the fire is advanced to the point that there is doubt in making it down the stairs consider having the first line maintain the first floor and have the second line get the fire or hit the fire from the exterior with the line before going inside. I am not advocating operating hoselines through windows but for an advanced basement fire operating the line for a minute to knock it down a little and take some heat out of it may be the difference between being able to make it down the stairs. Our engines don't have TICs but as a truck officer if I get a chance I give the engine officer and nozzle firefighter a look with the camera. Hopefully in the future the engines will be equipped with cameras. Engines are frequently on scene prior to the ladder companies and at fires the truck officer does not have the luxury to stay with the engine after finding the fire since they must complete the primary search.

[FiftyOnePride 100]

Respectfully, from reading your post, and noticing your age,do you think that maybe you are a little overconfident about your own "situational awareness"?

If you read overconfidence in my words then you are mistaken. I knew by posting what I did someone would point out my age, right now I am a black helmet firefighter that likes to read a lot, and talk a lot about fire tactics and the service in general, from the discussions I have had with Jakes around the county who I respect immensely to those within my department who I respect in the same way - those are the conclusions that I have come to, very boiled down, and always fluid due to the fact that I at least am always learning.

Edited December 23, 2009 by FiftyOnePride

[jayhalsey 6]

(Anyone remember the LODD fire in Pittsburgh where the front was at street level but the rear was a couple of floors below and no one knew).

Yeah, the Bricelyn St fire. First thing I thought about when the topic of 360 walkarounds came up. Other factors contributed to the three line of duty deaths, but that was a big one at that fire.

Everyone should read more about that fire: http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-078.pdf

[JFLYNN 681]

If you read overconfidence in my words then you are mistaken. I knew by posting what I did someone would point out my age, right now I am a black helmet firefighter that likes to read a lot, and talk a lot about fire tactics and the service in general, from the discussions I have had with Jakes around the county who I respect immensely to those within my department who I respect in the same way - those are the conclusions that I have come to, very boiled down, and always fluid due to the fact that I at least am always learning.

Fair enough.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Conditions always influence tactics however I'm not one to be in favor of stretching an uncharged handline into a residential structure because of the amount of variables that are present. For one the initial stretch is often the most critical on the fireground based on the tactical objectives identified. Having a good knowledge of residential building types in your district assists with making good decisions for the location of the initial stretch. I know many of the houses in my district that stretching to the rear through the back door gives me a straight shot from that door to the basement door and straight down the stairs. Raised ranch..pretty simple...right at the front door, if the garage is attached I have egress there. Center fed colonial...basement door is often in main hallway that divides the residence in 2.

One of the biggest things with basement fires is attempting to get a read on how involved the basement area is and getting a grasp on extension. If all else fails do what is necessary to keep the fire contained to allow crews to complete searches and achieve completion of incident priority number 1...life safety.

In addition to being able to be facing the way out, going down the stairs backwards allows you to check each step with your feet prior to putting all your weight bearing down on it as well as to spread your weight out. If the stairs fail under your legs, you will still have the friction of your upper body to use to try to keep from falling through. Many instructors have been noticing firefighters going down face first and saying they have been told this. I'm not sure where this is coming from as its not an accepted practice I have read or seen in any major curriculums but most important its not a sound tactic as all your weight is on your a** which is then on a step. If any fails, you are going through.

[eckyphats 0]

Several years ago I had the nozzle on the first line for a fire in a 2.5 story balloon frame..heavy heavy gray smoke showing No TIC.. we stretched in through a side door..about 5 feet in there was about a 1X2 hole in floor..we noticed it at the last second,then realized there was heavy fire in the basement... continued on to find the basement stairs, we finally found the basement door, opened it and guess what we found? NO STAIRS- as they had been removed for remodeling. we removed our line out of the building and found a door to the basement on the exterior and entered in there to knock down the fire but not before it traveled up the walls and took over the attic..hearing stories keeps reminding what could of happened that night.. TIC are a must

[Remember585 815]

I can see the point being made that a lack of personnel doesn't allow a full 360, but I don't feel that it is excusable. If the fire building is enormous, that's one thing, but a normal private dwelling should be given a 360. A Company, or at the least an Officer or experienced FF with a radio should be staged in the rear at all times.

I'm reminded of a house fire we had a few years back. The Chief showed up and the PD informed him it was "only an oil burner." We showed up on the first Engine, and based on what we were told we grabbed the "normal" equipment (TIC, Irons, Can) to check it out. As I stepped off the rig, my MPO and I could tell by the smoke it was more then an oil burner, and I ordered a 1 3/4" to the front door. As my crew started making our way in, the windows in the basement blew out and fire started working up the side of the house. The 2nd line went around back and made a good knockdown, while our first line stopped the fire's spread to the first floor.

Lesson - if our Chief A. ignored the info from PD and B. checked for himself, he would of known we had a job and not a boiler malfunction. Luckily our mindset is to assume the worst until we confirm something for ourselves.

We stopped this fire's spread upstairs (it was a good beating that my crew took) and kept it to mostly smoke damage. Luckily we were on scene swiftly, with sufficient perosnnel, and kept this fire to the basement.

Oh yeah, the oil burner room was clean, no fire or smoke damage. Go figure. Thank God we have experiences like these to learn from.

[FFPCogs 863]

Conditions always influence tactics

Without fail

One of the biggest things with basement fires is attempting to get a read on how involved the basement area is and getting a grasp on extension. If all else fails do what is necessary to keep the fire contained to allow crews to complete searches and achieve completion of incident priority number 1...life safety.

Absolutely. Actually entering a basement through a Bilco or other entrance door is preferable if it can be accomplished in a timley manner thus allowing the initial first floor interior line to be used to prevent fire spread up the stairwell.

In addition to being able to be facing the way out, going down the stairs backwards allows you to check each step with your feet prior to putting all your weight bearing down on it as well as to spread your weight out. If the stairs fail under your legs, you will still have the friction of your upper body to use to try to keep from falling through. Many instructors have been noticing firefighters going down face first and saying they have been told this. I'm not sure where this is coming from as its not an accepted practice I have read or seen in any major curriculums but most important its not a sound tactic as all your weight is on your a** which is then on a step. If any fails, you are going through.

Textbooks and class curriculums are wonderful tools but rarely encompass the realities of the fireground or the variables thereof. And while it may not be an accepted pratice in your area, the tactic of facing forward while going down into a basement is a sound one. Not only because you are facing the fire and therefore better able to judge the conditions, but also you maintain control of the line and have it available for immediate use in the direction you will need it should it become necessary. If the situation warrants and you need to be on your keester your feet will be in front of you feeling for the the steps and any weakness of them as you descend. Also having the line forward and at the ready allows you to hit any fire threatening the stairwell thus protecting it (and you) while helping your decent to the bottom of the stairs. As with any other evolution training and experience are the keys to success.

Never enter a fire area without a charged line and for basement fires have a control man at the top of the stairs to feed the line down whenever possible. And regardless of which direction you choose to face while descending, speed is of the essence...the last place you want to get hung up is on the stairs. All the heat, smoke and gasses are going to be headed right up that path of least resistance and becoming more and more severe for you, your fellow FFs and any victims with each passing minute

Edited December 24, 2009 by FFPCogs

[antiquefirelt 994]

Actually entering a basement through a Bilco or other entrance door is preferable if it can be accomplished in a timley manner thus allowing the initial first floor interior line to be used to prevent fire spread up the stairwell.

Preferable? Where does the smoke, heat and steam go if you enter through the only sizable exterior entrance/exit? I'm not sure preferable would be the correct word here. Likely safer for the FFer's, but not nearly as good for the contents and the structure. Again, as ALS noted tactics are influenced by the situation.

I still believe regardless of the fire being in the basement and us knowing it, the first line should enter the front door. My primary concern is cutting of the fire between the first and second floor and getting it between the fire and potential occupants. This will slow the line to the basement via in many cases, but how often are we certain the fire is contained to the basement? Again, as ALS notes, knowing your district is important. I know that 9 times out of 10 in my area the stretch to the rear and access through the rear door will take more time than entering through the front. This is due to small yards, cars parked all the way around dwellings, fences, over crowded rear porches and the like.

Good stuff in this thread.

[antiquefirelt 994]

And while it may not be an accepted pratice in your area, the tactic of facing forward while going down into a basement is a sound one. Not only because you are facing the fire and therefore better able to judge the conditions, but also you maintain control of the line and have it available for immediate use in the direction you will need it should it become necessary. If the situation warrants and you need to be on your keester your feet will be in front of you feeling for the the steps and any weakness of them as you descend. Also having the line forward and at the ready allows you to hit any fire threatening the stairwell thus protecting it (and you) while helping your decent to the bottom of the stairs. As with any other evolution training and experience are the keys to success.

Again, do what works for you, but understand some of the idea behind what has been said to this point. The safest way to descend the stairs is facing the stairs feet first. You can put weight on one foot at a time and if you start to go in, you can prone out on the stairs, hands on the line as a safety "rope" to the top. Using the line on the way down will cause you severe pain. Being on the stairs in a abasement fire is truly punishing. You're in the chimney, and the sooner you are on the floor (and the stairs are still intact!) the better. Going down feet first facing up will not allow you to use your hands effectively. Sure a weak step will be found, but a quick failure requires scrambling action, which cannot be accomplished on your back.

Stay Safe and Merry Christmas.

Edited December 24, 2009 by antiquefirelt

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Textbooks and class curriculums are wonderful tools but rarely encompass the realities of the fireground or the variables thereof. And while it may not be an accepted pratice in your area, the tactic of facing forward while going down into a basement is a sound one. Not only because you are facing the fire and therefore better able to judge the conditions, but also you maintain control of the line and have it available for immediate use in the direction you will need it should it become necessary. If the situation warrants and you need to be on your keester your feet will be in front of you feeling for the the steps and any weakness of them as you descend. Also having the line forward and at the ready allows you to hit any fire threatening the stairwell thus protecting it (and you) while helping your decent to the bottom of the stairs. As with any other evolution training and experience are the keys to success.

Never enter a fire area without a charged line and for basement fires have a control man at the top of the stairs to feed the line down whenever possible. And regardless of which direction you choose to face while descending, speed is of the essence...the last place you want to get hung up is on the stairs. All the heat, smoke and gasses are going to be headed right up that path of least resistance and becoming more and more severe for you, your fellow FFs and any victims with each passing minute

In regard to the Bilco doors..that would be my last choice of entry. But again that's me. Who I am I to say any tactic is wrong. My thinking is with the bilco doors open that is gonna give me a good sized opening for the release of smoke and superheated gases.

As far as the comment on textbooks and curriculums. I couldn't disagree more. Most curriculums today do encompass the realities of the fireground and todays fire instructors strive to give their students as realistic a learning environment as possible. Curriculums are based around NFPA 1001 and the accepted practice of the fire service and they should be the baseline of all training programs. I for one have and still see the perils of those whom conduct drills and training based on opinion, memory or what they think is a better way to do things. Comprehensive training programs need to be consistent and utilizing a dedicated curriculum and textbooks agreed upon are critical. Whether it be IFSTA, Delmar or Jones and Bartlett Firefighter Training series...pick one, they are all based on the same sound, tried and true firefighter tactics and knowledge needed.

In regard to going down face first...I'll leave it up to the readers of these forums and I ask anyone who reads this..including you cogs to show me where this has been shown to be a sound way to go down the stairs. Am I saying its wrong...no I didn't. All I said was it is not an accepted practice that I have seen. I'm going to explain why many of us feel this way yet again.

Anyone who has stairs in their house please read this, then go to the top and go down the stairs the way you have been drilled to....stomach to the stairs. Take note how you can spread out your extremities, how balanced you are and how you can use your leg muscles to bang each step with a good amount of force and check the next step with one foot while your body weight is spread out between your other foot and your upper body. Take note of how much sole of your footwear is making contact with the stair tread. Pretty much the ball of your foot to your toes which your body uses for balance..nice chunk of surface area. Then think that the step you just checked or even did put your body weight on failed. Where is the majority of your body weight? In your upper body which can now star out and gives you good friction on good portion of stairs.

Now go back to the top. Sit on your rear end and start to advance down the stairs. Can you feel the difference in force you can check the next step with? Is it the same as the amount your able to with going down reversed? Do you also have the tendency to want turn on your side as you now don't have good surface area of the sole of your footwear, but only a tiny bit of your heel? Which your also trying to bang the tread with to see if it can hold your weight. Lets not forget also you now don't have your SCBA on, which will also cause you to twist to the side as the knob of your cylinder will need to be kept off the next tread, again twisting. Where is all your weight at this point? Is it distributed along multiple steps...or is it on one? The one that is underneath your two butt cheeks. Now once you realize this...roll over and do it the reverse way and tell me how much of your weight you can distribute...feel the difference? Now roll over again back on your butt and imagine the steps in front of you failed...what are you going to do now? The steps you need to push up with your feet to get out are gone....how are you going to now roll over to get up the stairs?

So now tell me...do I sound like a book smart firefighter or fire instructor? Or someone who reads, thinks and tries things out and oh yeah...been in a fire....once maybe. Stay in reverse...tried and tested. It works and is an accepted practice of the fire service...do what I'm asking above and tell me if it is your accepted practice.

As far as advancing a hoseline..of course that offers a different set of challenges. You have to make the stretch and you want to do it efficiently but you also want to maintain some safety

[FFPCogs 863]

Preferable? Where does the smoke, heat and steam go if you enter through the only sizable exterior entrance/exit? I'm not sure preferable would be the correct word here. Likely safer for the FFer's, but not nearly as good for the contents and the structure. Again, as ALS noted tactics are influenced by the situation.

I still believe regardless of the fire being in the basement and us knowing it, the first line should enter the front door. My primary concern is cutting of the fire between the first and second floor and getting it between the fire and potential occupants. This will slow the line to the basement via in many cases, but how often are we certain the fire is contained to the basement? Again, as ALS notes, knowing your district is important. I know that 9 times out of 10 in my area the stretch to the rear and access through the rear door will take more time than entering through the front. This is due to small yards, cars parked all the way around dwellings, fences, over crowded rear porches and the like.

Good stuff in this thread.

Let me clarify...yes the first line goes through the front door as it should and if no other line can be quickly put into operation it goes to the basement. When another line is quickly availabe and an outside entrance is accessible than an attack can be made from there depending on the situation, (hence the need for a 360). The intial line then controls the stairs and hits any extension to the first floor. That is what is meant by preferable, but as we all know not always possible...as has been said "conditions dictate tactics".

I am not advocating the intial line entering from the basement leaving the stairwell and first floor exposed and ultimately pushing the fire right up those stairs. As I was taught and still adhere to the first line goes between the fire and any potential victims from the unburned to the burned as the unburned portion of the fire building is generally the most immediately threatened exposure.

Bottom line is water has got to get on the fire ASAP at ANY structure fire....as the "old" adage states "put the fire out and all the other problems go away". But at times there is flexibility, in fact there has to be, as to how that can be accomplished....this is where experience (and yes I have some too after 30 years) plays a vital role in determining tactics (as they apply to the conditions), that NO textbook can match.

Cogs

Edited December 24, 2009 by FFPCogs

[wraftery 1,275]

Fair enough.

One more point on TICS that Flynn will guarantee to agree on.

Practice. On the drill ground, practice with your tic AND without it. It is very easy to become a Missing Member if your battery goes dead and you are not used to working by feel. What you saw via tic on the way in, you will now have to feel on the way out.

[ny10570 745]

As everyone here has focused on how important the TIC is, I just want to remind people that the TIC is just another tool. Its not bolted to your face piece for a reason. I've seen too many times where people missed some obvious things because they were too busy staring through the camera. During overhaul or when searching for a smoke source after you've cleared a room with the tic you need to get in there with your hands and tools.

[antiquefirelt 994]

As everyone here has focused on how important the TIC is, I just want to remind people that the TIC is just another tool. Its not bolted to your face piece for a reason. I've seen too many times where people missed some obvious things because they were too busy staring through the camera. During overhaul or when searching for a smoke source after you've cleared a room with the tic you need to get in there with your hands and tools.

I definitely agree with your first statement. The issue is that most people do not use the TIC nearly enough to be truly proficient at what they are seeing. Conversely, as noted blind reliance on the TIC is a recipe for disaster. The key to success as with nearly everything in this job, is continual training and practical application. Seeing a hot outlet, putting your hand on it and finding relevance in what the TIC is telling you is as important as knowing how to turn it on and off. For this reason, our guys take the cameras off the truck on every run. They look at things all the rime, regardless of smoke condition or actual fire. This gives you a basis to judge from. We know that shiny stainless steel in most commercial kitchens reflect the image and are inaccurate. The same goes for any glass not just mirrors. If a material reflects heat, the camera will not "see" it properly. This is just one of the little issue you learn as you handle these things more and more.

The camera can be successfully used to more surgically overhaul, rather than forcing you to use hands and tools. As always you must be able to correlate what you "see" in the TIC with what you actually see, smell, feel and hear.

I know for certain a TIC saved my bacon one night as we nearly left an "odor of smoke" in a residence and blamed it on the cool night and nearby wood burning chimney smoke. One last look throughout the living room with the TIC found a fire in the ceiling where no one could have reached it to touch. While the house was only a few doors from the station, going back for an attic fire would have not been good for anyone involved, especially your truly!