White Plains Ends FFs Working 24-Hour Tours

[tommyguy 104]

October 28, 2009 - Westchester Journal-News

Work schedules cause rift on White Plains council

WHITE PLAINS - The Common Council has directed Public Safety Commissioner Frank

Straub to rescind an experimental work schedule for police officers and firefighters that

Straub said has saved the city almost $400,000 in overtime costs and 2,600 hours of

sick time.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20091028/NEWS02/910280378/1018/NEWS02/Work-schedules-cause-rift-on-White-Plains-council

That sounds like a throwback to the olden days, firefighters working a 24-hour shift. Sounds like the guys don't care for it too much either. I can see how some would like it though.

I think WPFD used to work 8 AM - 6 PM and 6 PM - 8 AM. Any other local departments work 24-hour tours of duty?

Edited October 30, 2009 by jack10562
Source Site Copyright

[SFRD49 8]

Stamford Fire and Rescue has been working a 24 on, 72 off schedule for over three years now. The concept of the 24 hour shift is relatively new to the Northeast. It was more common out west or down south. In California there are many departments that work 48 hour tours!!!! As it was proven in White Plains the shift benefits both the municipality and the firefighters. It does here in Stamford!

Stay Safe,

SFRD49

[LT410 5]

The guys dont like it? Its the other way around!

[IzzyEng4 427]

We went from working 24 / 72 to working two 10 hour days, two 14 hour nights then 4 days off. Our OT and sick time use has increased dramatically and it has become much harder to fill shifts and take vacation time. Plus too we are very short staffed right now as many positions have not been re-filled.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Don't like it??? I haven't run into a WPFD member I am friends with or know professionally who doesn't love it and are upset it could be going bye bye. Nothing like putting FD and PD into the political football game, even when its has been shown its working to the benefit of the taxpayers. I am not scheduled to work 24's, but because of unlimited mutuals I have worked straight 24's for several years now and wouldn't like it any other way.

[DR104 141]

http://www.lohud.com/article/20091028/NEWS02/910280378/1018/NEWS02/Work-schedules-cause-rift-on-White-Plains-council

That sounds like a throwback to the olden days, firefighters working a 24-hour shift. Sounds like the guys don't care for it too much either. I can see how some would like it though.

I think WPFD used to work 8 AM - 6 PM and 6 PM - 8 AM. Any other local departments work 24-hour tours of duty?

DO NOT POST WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tommyguy 104]

DO NOT POST WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man that's a lot of exclamation points.

Look I posted an article and it's been viewed over 500 times in less than 12 hours so I guess it was of interest (like I thought it would be). It was impossible to tell from the way it was written what the firefighters and police who attended in large numbers were upset about, so I asked. What's the problem with that?

Most of the guys I knew from living and working in White Plains who were White Plains cops and firefighters are retired and no longer live in the area. The guy I used to work with (from Station 7) wouldn't have liked it I don't think because he had an auto repair business on the side. He didn't even like working days because nothing got done in the shop if he wasn't there. According to him anyway.

So the guys attended the meeting to voice displeasure at seeing the 24 hours shifts rescinded? Thanks, didn't know that.

[Raz 14]

Man that's a lot of exclamation points.

Look I posted an article and it's been viewed over 500 times in less than 12 hours so I guess it was of interest (like I thought it would be). It was impossible to tell from the way it was written what the firefighters and police who attended in large numbers were upset about, so I asked. What's the problem with that?

Most of the guys I knew from living and working in White Plains who were White Plains cops and firefighters are retired and no longer live in the area. The guy I used to work with (from Station 7) wouldn't have liked it I don't think because he had an auto repair business on the side. He didn't even like working days because nothing got done in the shop if he wasn't there. According to him anyway.

So the guys attended the meeting to voice displeasure at seeing the 24 hours shifts rescinded? Thanks, didn't know that.

24 hour schedules are one of those rare occurrences that mutually benefit both the labor force and the employer. The employer will generally see a vast reduction in overtime used to cover leave (and really, what manager anywhere wouldn't love to be able to cut OT while not reducing output?), while the labor force benefits from having "more time off."

The reason I put "more time off" in quotes is because it's a misnomer. Firefighters work the same number of hours, but are spared many hours that are normally spent commuting and recovering before and after their shifts. Most guys will agree that the "day off" between night tours (10 hours in actuality, which becomes 8 hours or less once you factor in some commutes), is almost completely lost. Many would also make the same arguments about the night off between day tours. Dennis Smith once famously wrote that he felt as though he "really worked at the firehouse about 6 days a week."

Disregarding the monetary and time benefit to both the municipality and their workforce, there's the biggest benefit of all: alert, fresh firefighters at all times. Working one night tour, no matter how busy, just doesn't effect most guys until the morning, when they're off duty. They then go home, recoup and come back fresh in a few days. When you start stacking night after night, as in a 10 and 14 schedule, you start wearing firefighters down.

[NWFDMedic 58]

I think the biggest question when you consider the 24 hour work schedule is the amount of work that the firefighters do. If they're running 15-20 calls in a 24 hour shift, it is not unreasonable to consider that the firefighters are not in good physical condition to tackle a job during the 23rd hour of that shift. However, if there is significant down-time or rest during the shift, the 24 hour schedule can offer significant benefits. Knowing nothing about the actual work requirements of WPFD, I can't really comment as to whether the schedule is good for them.

[Raz 14]

I think the biggest question when you consider the 24 hour work schedule is the amount of work that the firefighters do. If they're running 15-20 calls in a 24 hour shift, it is not unreasonable to consider that the firefighters are not in good physical condition to tackle a job during the 23rd hour of that shift. However, if there is significant down-time or rest during the shift, the 24 hour schedule can offer significant benefits. Knowing nothing about the actual work requirements of WPFD, I can't really comment as to whether the schedule is good for them.

They'll probably be better during the 23rd hour of that first shift than they would be during the 13th hour of their second consecutive night shift. WPFD has a sizeable call volume, but if certain FDNY houses can work 24 hour shifts, I think WPFD's guys can handle it.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Raz

[tommyguy 104]

...certain FDNY houses...work 24 hour shifts...

Are those special units?

[dragonrescue 28]

WPFD is being set-up! It's not about saving money and sick time. The politicians and city management take back the 24's that everyone likes working and maybe the ff's will give up something more valuable to keep them. POLITICIANS SUCK!!!!!! Don't give anything back for 24's, you'll be sorry!

[dillondotcom 16]

If a job comes in at the 13th hour or the 23rd hour and you were tired, once the call comes in for that job, you are more awake and alert then ever. Working 24hr shifts I think is better. Straights can be pretty tough. I know that NRFD also does 24hr shifts, and I think Yonkers does as well, but I am not totally sure about that.

[Raz 14]

WPFD is being set-up! It's not about saving money and sick time. The politicians and city management take back the 24's that everyone likes working and maybe the ff's will give up something more valuable to keep them. POLITICIANS SUCK!!!!!! Don't give anything back for 24's, you'll be sorry!

I figured that's what this was about. It always seems that someone in charge wants to take away 24's or mutuals as a way of fighting the labor force. Fortunately, 9 out of 10 times, someone smarter and higher up will put a stop to it because they see how much it benefits the management as well. Apparently, that didn't happen here. Oh well, they'll figure it out the hard way, it seems.

Are those special units?

No, I just said "certain units" because I can only speak for the guys that I happen to know on the job down there. Keep in mind, when a lot of us are talking about 24's, we're actually talking about modifying a 10 and 14 schedule so that the day and night tours abut eachother. I know Greenville's schedule is actually set up like that, many other departments accomplish the same task through mutuals.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Raz

[x635 4,066]

Many firefighters I know in departments that work the 10/14's swap with others to make 24's/36's. At least they are not going to 8 hour shifts, like I saw an letter to the editor about how it would "save money" a while back as one citizen claimed....can't seem to find it now though....(was NOT from the JN). Almost everywhere I have worked there has been scheduling drama....it is something that is very important to the workers, and management knows that they can use that to get their way.

[16fire5 693]

The FDNY works a 25 group schedule where firefighters work 9 hour days and 15 hours night tours. Current practice pretty much allows unlimmited mutuals which can be used to work 24 hours shifts. Most of these 24s start at 1800 and end the next night. Having worked 24s both ways I am much more in favor of doing 24s that start on the night tour. Another major benifit to the municipality is less overtime because of half the amount of shift changes. When members of the off going shift respond to emergencies just prior to the end of their tour they incurr overtime having your firefighters work 24s cuts this in half. For the firefighters many of whom myself included live far from where we work get more time with our families. A great negotiation point in the green society we live in is cutting in half the number of vehicle trips your employees make. To often I've heard tales of Fire Commisioners, City Managers, and Mayors opposing 24s for stupid reasons of not wanting their firefighters showing up 8 times a month or just because of jealously in my opinion. Honestly I think lots of departments can be sucessful in the future if they push the environmental aspect.

[x635 4,066]

For the firefighters many of whom myself included live far from where we work get more time with our families. A great negotiation point in the green society we live in is cutting in half the number of vehicle trips your employees make.

That's a really good point and a really good way to look at it!

To add to that, I would think the average White Plains Firefighters can't afford to live in or near White Plains comfortably, and with gas prices, that should be taken into account......a lot of people commute to White Plains, but a firefighter commute (nights, weekends,holidays, snowstorms, usually no logical way to use public transit) is totally different.

[TL2L31 8]

Are the city and union about to start negotiating on a new contract? It seems like a bargaining chip for the city.

[gamewell45 258]

WPFD is being set-up! It's not about saving money and sick time. The politicians and city management take back the 24's that everyone likes working and maybe the ff's will give up something more valuable to keep them. POLITICIANS SUCK!!!!!! Don't give anything back for 24's, you'll be sorry!

If your unhappy with your current politicians, vote them out of office when their terms expire.

[210 91]

If your unhappy with your current politicians, vote them out of office when their terms expire.

That works if your a resident of WP.

[dragonrescue 28]

That works if your a resident of WP.

Thanks for backing me up! At least someone is paying attention to detail.

[Geppetto 31]

White Plains commissioner defies council over union schedules

http://www.lohud.com/article/20091031/NEWS...union-schedules

[johnvv 20]

Congratulations to the Commissioner for stepping up!

I love the quote from Common Council Dennis Power-

"In doing so, Power said, the commissioner handed the unions something they had been requesting for 30 years, while they gave almost nothing in return."

The Firefighters are working the same amount of hours as when they worked the 10/14 hour shift. Why should they have to "give up" anything?

Politics at its finest!

By the way, the Union had supported Mr. Powers in past ellections. This is what they get for their efforts!

[DR104 141]

Man that's a lot of exclamation points.

Look I posted an article and it's been viewed over 500 times in less than 12 hours so I guess it was of interest (like I thought it would be). It was impossible to tell from the way it was written what the firefighters and police who attended in large numbers were upset about, so I asked. What's the problem with that?

Most of the guys I knew from living and working in White Plains who were White Plains cops and firefighters are retired and no longer live in the area. The guy I used to work with (from Station 7) wouldn't have liked it I don't think because he had an auto repair business on the side. He didn't even like working days because nothing got done in the shop if he wasn't there. According to him anyway.

So the guys attended the meeting to voice displeasure at seeing the 24 hours shifts rescinded? Thanks, didn't know that.

Sorry got carried away.

[LFD34 12]

Is this issue driven by White Plains council on its own? Does both labor and fire management both support the schedule change. If so then what is the real issue, and why is this coming up?

[hudson144 150]

24 scheduling has been proved to be a benefit, many reasons already mentioned.In 100+ page document from NJ it is proven that the 24s benefit the citys. IN white plains the sick lv and OT went down-basic math here!

Edited October 31, 2009 by hudson144

[johnvv 20]

Hudson, I shouldn't have to remind you-

Common sense, efficiency, cost effective operations, and good job morale VS Mindless Politics.....

[tommyguy 104]

The City says the 24s saved them $400,000 in OT in the first 10 months of the agreement and they want to end it? It's very hard to understand the logic here.

It sounds like there's a political agenda here that's probably not understandable unless you're involved in White Plains politics. Last year didn't the city make a contract offer to the police and fire and then after they accepted it pull it off the table because they said they couldn't afford it? Something like that.

To me the problem is the Journal-News guy should be putting these questions to the council members but he's not. Isn't that what a newspaper's for?

[16fire5 693]

No one has shown any logical reason to switching back to the 10s and 14s. Many benifits of the 24s have been shown. It's obvious that a few politicians here are just trying to stick it to the union.

[Lucifer 6]

Congrats to Commissioner Straub! He is tasked with administrating the PD and FD at the most cost effective, efficient, productive means for the tax payers. He clearly understands the benefits of the 24/72 FD schedule and the 12 hr PD shifts. It's encouraging to see a politically appointed Commissioner that does NOT bow to the pressures of the political majority when he believes in something. Even if it happens to make the union happy.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Lucifer