American Flag Decal

[tunaFish 0]

Fireman Suspended Over US Flag Decal

(Oct. 17) -- A Pennsylvania firefighter who put an American flag sticker on the front of his locker has been suspended without pay for refusing to take the Old Glory decal down.

James Krapf, along with nearly a dozen other Chester, Pa. firefighters, were ordered to remove personal items from the outside of their lockers -- a violation of department policy, MyFoxPhilly.com reported.

Krapf refused to do so and the department suspended him Thursday. So far, he's the only one on forced leave.

"I shouldn't have to remove the flag of the country I believe in. I love my country," Krapf told the Fox affiliate.

The department directed firefighters to keep the outside of their lockers undecorated after some employees took offense to a racially-motivated cartoon posted last summer.

Department officials told The Philadelphia Inquirer that banning any decor from lockers was the only way to prevent fighting among employees.

"The directive says 'everything,' " Capt. John Barbato, vice president of the department's union, told the newspaper. "I never would've thought the American flag would be included in that."

For the full story, visit MyFoxPhilly.com.com and The Philadelphia Inquirer.

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2009-10-17 16:24:08

Edited October 18, 2009 by xfirefighter484x
Fixed Quote

[helicopper 1,050]

The Department should put an American Flag on EVERY locker and then it wouldn't be an issue.

I understand the policy issue - nothing means nothing - but this is a bad example.

[tunaFish 0]

The Department should put an American Flag on EVERY locker and then it wouldn't be an issue.

I understand the policy issue - nothing means nothing - but this is a bad example.

Yeah, I agree with you. It's a ridiculous policy.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Chris, couldnt have said it better myself!

I understand that there are policies in place for reasons, but this one is out of line. Good for the FF for standing for what he believes in. I just hope the City opens their eyes and takes him off suspension.

Man, getting in trouble for displaying the American flag is just ridiculous, especially in a firehouse!

[DOC22 1]

Chris, couldnt have said it better myself!

I understand that there are policies in place for reasons, but this one is out of line. Good for the FF for standing for what he believes in. I just hope the City opens their eyes and takes him off suspension.

Man, getting in trouble for displaying the American flag is just ridiculous, especially in a firehouse!

Ridiculous and unpatriotic as hell!

[Pudge3311 5]

The following comes from a friend of mind who knows the individual involved:

Hate to be the one to say this, especially since I consider myself be be extremely patriotic, but... Hasn't this gone far enough?? Let's take a deep breath, step back, and look at the big picture for a minute. The CFD issued an order back in AUGUST saying that ALL decorations, markings, etc., needed to be removed from all lockers. They didn't enforce the policy until last week. That means that they had 6 weeks to ask for clarification and to propose changes / modifications to the rule if they didn't agree with it. Was any of that done? Now they are enforcing the rule. It's not like they single Jim Krapf and his US Flag out. They didn't walk into the fire station and say "Take that flag off your locker" while allowing everybody else to keep whatever they wanted on their lockers. Could they have put exceptions in the rule? Sure, but they didn't. So the rule says NO decorations or markings on the lockers, which the city owns.

Does Jim, or any of us have to agree with the rule? No. But as an employee, he has an obligation to follow the rule or face the consequences. If he doesn't like the rule, I'm sure there have to be procedures that can be followed to get the rule changed. But in the mean time, the rule needs to be followed, right, wrong or indifferent. We are a country based on the rule of law. If we all decide to just stop following the rules, then anarchy and chaos result.

What if your fire department came out with a rule tomorrow that says you can only where pink Metrol helmets. No other helments are allowed. You can't wear leather and you can't wear any color other than pink. If you don't follow the rule, you'll be suspended or fired. Sure, it's a silly rule, but it's still the rule. You can protest the rule. You can propose changes to the rule. But until the department changes the rule, you still have to follow the rule or face the consequences. Are they wrong if they suspend you because you didn't follow the rule?... Read More

Let's face it, Jim Krapf is not being suspended for displaying an American flag on his locker. He is being suspended because he is refusing to comply with a duly issued order, no matter how silly the rule or order is.

Am I comparing the Stars & Stripes to a pink fire helmet? Hell No. Do I think they should be prohibited from having flag stickers on their lockers? Hell No. But until the rule is changed, I believe he has a duty and an obligation to follow the rule. It would be an entirely different story if they singled him out and told him he had to remove all markings from his locker while allowing everybody else to keep markings on their lockers. That would be discrimination. It would also be an entirely different story if they singled out the US Flag, but they didn't. They issued an across the board rule that applies to all personnel and all markings. Comply with the rule, then follow the appropriate procedures to request permission to display a US Flag sticker on every locker.

Sometimes, you have to choose your battles.

By $0.02 worth. Let the floggings begin...

Kind of puts it in a different perspecitive.

[Pudge3311 5]

A post on the Firehouse.com Forums:

This is getting almost laughable.

This has NOTHING to do with the American Flag. ZERO. NILCH. NADA

Plain and simple folks, here's the run down...

Obviously there was bickering, backstabbing and moaning about one person being allowed to do this. Another person sticking a middle finger up at management after being told not to do something. Therefore, management TWO months ago comes up with a clear policy of nothing displayed on the outside of the lockers.

Obviously we have a group of individuals who somehow think that words like "all" and "nothing" somehow included an asterisk that said "except American Flags stickers".

They had TWO months to discuss this policy like professionals. TWO months to be adults. Instead they acted like children.

Now they are getting their 15 minutes of fame and doing nothing more than tugging on your heart strings because it's the American flag. They want you to feel sorry for them, and from the looks of it they are doing it quite well.

Management-- wrong with the wording of the policy and being too inflexible.

Personnel- wrong for disobeying a policy that could have been discussed earlier with class and professionalism

Two wrongs do not equal a right.

__________________

Company 10/Engine 10

Virginia Beach FD

Makes it kind of tough to pick a side in this one.

[FFLieu 70]

So move the flag to the inside of the door where most people post their personal effects, anyway, and you won't be sitting at home, on your duff, collecting no money. Common sense should tell you that you don't own your locker, your department does, and to those ends, you must comply with the established department policy. It was never about un-patriotism; but it was always about insubordination.

[Guest chrisluvstef2]

So move the flag to the inside of the door where most people post their personal effects, anyway, and you won't be sitting at home, on your duff, collecting no money. Common sense should tell you that you don't own your locker, your department does, and to those ends, you must comply with the established department policy. It was never about un-patriotism; but it was always about insubordination.

I could see if we were somewhere other than America, But considering this is America Someone wanting to Display there love and Loyalty to America should be able to do so without offending someone.. I would assume there is an American flag outside the Fire Dept and there is no concern about that offending anyone.. I think it's crazy that in this day and time with the country going Broke and people loosing there jobs there sre more important things to worry about aside from a firefighter who risks his/her life every day putting An American Flag on a Locker in AMERICA

[FFLieu 70]

Except the issue is not about the display of the flag; it's about a member not following a department directive. He does not own that locker, and therefore has no right to affix anything to the outside. It would be a whole other issue if perhaps the locker belonged to him in that he brought it into the fire house, but such is not the case here. Quite honestly, if he had some nudie picture posted and not a flag, none of us would probably be having this discussion; but since it's a flag, it's very easy to have judgments clouded and a lack of sight into the real issue of the guy not complying with a directive to remove EVERYTHING from the front of the locker.

[x129K 1,393]

The Flag stays!

http://statter911.com/2009/10/19/firefight...ire-department/

[tunaFish 0]

Except the issue is not about the display of the flag; it's about a member not following a department directive. He does not own that locker, and therefore has no right to affix anything to the outside. It would be a whole other issue if perhaps the locker belonged to him in that he brought it into the fire house, but such is not the case here. Quite honestly, if he had some nudie picture posted and not a flag, none of us would probably be having this discussion; but since it's a flag, it's very easy to have judgments clouded and a lack of sight into the real issue of the guy not complying with a directive to remove EVERYTHING from the front of the locker.

Wow, what a debate I stirred up here After carefully reading all that was submitted, it seems that everything, means everything. It also seems given what's been written here, that amble time was given for clarification as to what "everything / nothing" meant. Evidently, no member of the firehouse questioned anything about the directive. Even if that were the case, it still meant, "nothing." No, it was not about the flag, it was anything displayed.

So, zero tolerance means, zero tolerance. I guess that's it

Tuna

Edited October 20, 2009 by tunaFish

[tunaFish 0]

Wow, what a debate I stirred up here After carefully reading all that was submitted, it seems that everything, means everything. It also seems given what's been written here, that amble time was given for clarification as to what "everything / nothing" meant. Evidently, no member of the firehouse questioned anything about the directive. Even if that were the case, it still meant, "nothing." No, it was not about the flag, it was anything displayed.

So, zero tolerance means, zero tolerance. I guess that's it

Tuna

WOW...READ post #12, The Flag Decal stays on the locker!

God Bless America!

[M' Ave 1,466]

I'm glad to see that the flag can remain. However, I'm also glad to see that most of the posts here are in support of the enforcement of the rules. The rule might suck, but I think that we pride ourselves on calling our command structure paramilitary and I can assure you that NO ONE questions a superior order and gets away with it in the armed forces.

If you worked in the private sector and your boss told you to take down something you hung on your office wall, you would. If you didn't you be fired. It's that simple. I'm not sure why there is so much bending and pushing of rules (not that I'm not completely guilty of this!!). The fire service isn't a democracy.

[FFLieu 70]

Tuna, I'm picking up your sarcasm. But, as M'Ave said, the fire service (nor the police service, nor any other unified "paramilitary" organization with a clearly designed chain of command) is a democracy.

So OK fine, the flag can stay. What about the next exception? What if there were a member of that department who was of perhaps Iranian or Iraqi or Afghani or Paki decent and wanted to celebrate his or her heritage by displaying that country's flag on the front of the locker? Now the department has to rule in favor of that flag otherwise it could open itself up to litigation for being discriminative. And so it goes that since they made one exception, they may very well have to make others, which could ultimately lead to the failure of the original directive and department policy that nothing shall be displayed on the front of a member's locker.

That's why everything means everything. Department Chiefs and Commissioners seldom make rules for the sake of making them; there's generally an underlying reason for the creation of such a directive, and in this case, it was that the department in question wanted to control what was being affixed to their property.

[Guest chrisluvstef2]

Tuna, I'm picking up your sarcasm. But, as M'Ave said, the fire service (nor the police service, nor any other unified "paramilitary" organization with a clearly designed chain of command) is a democracy.

So OK fine, the flag can stay. What about the next exception? What if there were a member of that department who was of perhaps Iranian or Iraqi or Afghani or Paki decent and wanted to celebrate his or her heritage by displaying that country's flag on the front of the locker? Now the department has to rule in favor of that flag otherwise it could open itself up to litigation for being discriminative. And so it goes that since they made one exception, they may very well have to make others, which could ultimately lead to the failure of the original directive and department policy that nothing shall be displayed on the front of a member's locker.

That's why everything means everything. Department Chiefs and Commissioners seldom make rules for the sake of making them; there's generally an underlying reason for the creation of such a directive, and in this case, it was that the department in question wanted to control what was being affixed to their property.

Good Point and I think we can all see something like that Happening, I'm not saying people should not be proud of there heritage as most of us have family that came form another country, I strongly feel the ONLY Flag that should be flown or displayed in America is the American Flag, I wouldnt go to Iraq, Puerto Rico, Germany Etc and display an American Flag I just dont feel it's appropriate.. But Thats just my Opinion.. This is Def interesting to see everyones feelings about the whole thing..

[x129K 1,393]

So many call it "the Job".......and actually forget it is....a job.

[tunaFish 0]

Tuna, I'm picking up your sarcasm. But, as M'Ave said, the fire service (nor the police service, nor any other unified "paramilitary" organization with a clearly designed chain of command) is a democracy.

So OK fine, the flag can stay. What about the next exception? What if there were a member of that department who was of perhaps Iranian or Iraqi or Afghani or Paki decent and wanted to celebrate his or her heritage by displaying that country's flag on the front of the locker? Now the department has to rule in favor of that flag otherwise it could open itself up to litigation for being discriminative. And so it goes that since they made one exception, they may very well have to make others, which could ultimately lead to the failure of the original directive and department policy that nothing shall be displayed on the front of a member's locker.

That's why everything means everything. Department Chiefs and Commissioners seldom make rules for the sake of making them; there's generally an underlying reason for the creation of such a directive, and in this case, it was that the department in question wanted to control what was being affixed to their property.

Sarcasm? Not at all. I didn't think I was being sarcastic, and that was not my intent.

I was an educator for many, many years, following many directives that I didn't personally agree with, but had to follow as well as rules and regulations that passed on to my students.

I just posted the article as an informative piece of literature. I also understand that the decision to let the ff keep the flag will open up a can of worms.

So, please don't feel I was being sarcastic.

Edited October 21, 2009 by tunaFish