Consolidation Study

[Remember585 815]

http://www.lohud.com/article/2009907010355

Study: Consolidation would save millions

By Richard Liebson • rliebson@lohud.com • July 1, 2009

Homeowners and businesses in 10 Westchester communities could save an estimated $47 million a year in fire insurance premiums if their fire districts consolidated, according to a study being released today by Pace University's Edwin G. Michaelian Institute for Public Policy and Management.

Edited July 1, 2009 by jack10562
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[Bnechis 3,961]

The roll out is at 3pm.

The study is 224 pages

[IzzyEng4 427]

Should be an interesting read. As for any consideration for a service consolidation regardless of emergency services, schools, ect. it would take time, money and effort to it to happen successfully. What ay have to be paid up front may in the long run be more benificial to the residents of that particular town / area.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Will it be available to read anywhere online?

[Raz 14]

Will it be available to read anywhere online?

The study is available for download on Lohud.com at the link given on the top of this page.

EDIT: Here is a direct link: http://www.lohud.com/assets/pdf/BH13777471.PDF

Edited July 1, 2009 by Raz

[Raz 14]

I'm by no means an expert in the fire service. I haven't "crawled down many hallways" like some people on here, but this report breaks everything down into a beautiful simplicity. Honestly, if everything in there is true, this is a bona fide homerun for both the Westchester fire service and the taxpayers that support it.

Long story short, consolidation would deliver fully staffed engines and trucks to every area in question within the allotted NFPA timeframe, without stripping other areas of coverage, while reducing ISO rating and overhead costs. All for an estimated annual cost of $382 per capita. Excellent work, Captain Nechis and everyone involved.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Raz

[M' Ave 1,466]

Thanks for the link, I just finished reading it. Very interesting and certainly well thought out and very thorough. It does an excellent job of outlining savings, ect. The only stumbling block I see is that some municipalities have dealt with a very small # of firefighters for decades and wouldn't so clearly see a cost benefit if you're suggesting adding more firefighters to their community. I understand that there is a cost benefit, but you have to have a clear understanding in order to get that. Hopefully those in charge see this as the important issue it is and give it enough attention to educate themselves.

NFPA sets a good minimum standard, but politicians know they don't HAVE to follow it.

It's a great report and I hope that it's powerful enough to lead people in the right direction. Congratulations on the finished product!!

Edited July 1, 2009 by M' Ave

[helicopper 1,050]

OK, riddle me this... If this can - theoretically - be done with almost a dozen career departments involving hundreds of people, contract and personnel issues, etc., etc., etc. why can't it be done with some of the 40+ volunteer fire departments?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

OK, riddle me this... If this can - theoretically - be done with almost a dozen career departments involving hundreds of people, contract and personnel issues, etc., etc., etc. why can't it be done with some of the 40+ volunteer fire departments?

I think that should be the next step....now we know what can be done for the career guys....now lets see what can be done for the volunteers. I refuse to believe that volunteer fire departments and districts can not be consolidated. Would it to be easier to organize, finance and control, in a unified command structure, the Town of Mount Pleasant Fire Department, Town of Cortland Fire Department, Town of Greenburgh Fire Department, Town of North Salem Fire Department, Town of Lewisboro Fire Department, Town of Bedford Fire Department, Town of New Castle and Town of North Castle Fire Department?

[EJS1810 7]

I think that should be the next step....now we know what can be done for the career guys....now lets see what can be done for the volunteers. I refuse to believe that volunteer fire departments and districts can not be consolidated. Would it to be easier to organize, finance and control, in a unified command structure, the Town of Mount Pleasant Fire Department, Town of Cortland Fire Department, Town of Greenburgh Fire Department, Town of North Salem Fire Department, Town of Lewisboro Fire Department, Town of Bedford Fire Department, Town of New Castle and Town of North Castle Fire Department?

Croton Falls is the only fire department in the Town of North Salem. As for the other towns, I believe it comes down to the size of the community. Lets use the Town of Bedford for an example. The fire is in the Bedford section of town and your second due is coming from Bedford Hills or Katonah. The farther north you go in Westchester, the more the distance between stations which increases the travel time because the infastructure is not as built up as in southern Westchester.

[ladder55 26]

i have a question with this plan. if a ff. in greenburgh that has 5 years makes $85k a yr. and a ff in mt vernon that also has 5 years makes $50k a year how are they gonna even that out? note: i didnt read the plan just heard about it so if the answer is in there i appologize in advance.

[Bnechis 3,961]

i have a question with this plan. if a ff. in greenburgh that has 5 years makes $85k a yr. and a ff in mt vernon that also has 5 years makes $50k a year how are they gonna even that out? note: i didnt read the plan just heard about it so if the answer is in there i appologize in advance.

1) This study only did a cursory look at the overall financials (which look do able), the charge we had was meeting minimum standards. It was determined that the next step would do a detailed look at the financials including costs and tax issues.

2) Having read all the contract and budgets, pay is a lot closer than most would believe. The big difference is the OT rate ranged from 0% to unlimitted.

[ladder55 26]

thanks.

[Bnechis 3,961]

As for the other towns, I believe it comes down to the size of the community. Lets use the Town of Bedford for an example. The fire is in the Bedford section of town and your second due is coming from Bedford Hills or Katonah. The farther north you go in Westchester, the more the distance between stations which increases the travel time because the infastructure is not as built up as in southern Westchester.

Just because you would have rigs coming a greater distance doe not mean it would not work. If it really i a fire you tend to need them anyway and if the closest house can get 2 rig out, they can turn the other around if not needed. Since those 3 depts are not staffed ISO want 36 firefighter +1 IC (plus water supply personnel) on every firecall, can any of them do that on most calls, if not this would help

[IzzyEng4 427]

Just because you would have rigs coming a greater distance doe not mean it would not work. If it really i a fire you tend to need them anyway and if the closest house can get 2 rig out, they can turn the other around if not needed. Since those 3 depts are not staffed ISO want 36 firefighter +1 IC (plus water supply personnel) on every firecall, can any of them do that on most calls, if not this would help

As an added reference to the Capt. here and something that I am sort-of familiar with is the merging of the Vernon Fire Department and the Rockville Fire Department, both located in the Town of Vernon, CT. The departments merged to creat teh Town of Vernon Volunteer Fire Department back in the 1980s when the city of Rockville and the Town of Vernon merged thier governments together and both departments still operated independently (basically two separate districts sponsored by each of the former governments). When they mergeged the volunteer companies from both departments now operated under the same Board of Fire Commissioners, one chief, two assistancts and one deputy and each company has thier own line officers (captains and lieutenants). Thier stations are spread our quite conisderably in the old "town district" section (Vernon Center, Talcotville and Dobsonville) while the two stations in Rockville are a closer together so to speak. EMS is also a division of the fire department as well with its own officers and operates from a sixth station (public saftey headquarters).

Having buffed them a few times, they are a good example and efficient combined volunteer fire department that pre-existed as two spearate volunteer departments. It can be done.

http://www.vernonfire.com/

[nfd2004 750]

The Northern Hudson Regional Fire Dept in Northern N.J. was born from several smaller career depts consolidating. I believe that happen around 1998-99. and I think things are going well for them. Fire Appartus Journal had a profile on that Fire Dept a few issues back. It has worked in career, volunteer, and combination depts.

[50-65 205]

Let's just suppose for a moment that a few people thought it may be a good idea to consolidate services to share equipment and manpower, reduce the tax burden on the taxpayers of several districts, and possibly even hire firefighters to provide adequate coverage and timely responses.

If one were to do a study to prove or disprove the effectiveness of such a pipe dream, where would they start? What are some of the things that should be looked at and where might one find some of this information?

[helicopper 1,050]

Let's just suppose for a moment that a few people thought it may be a good idea to consolidate services to share equipment and manpower, reduce the tax burden on the taxpayers of several districts, and possibly even hire firefighters to provide adequate coverage and timely responses.

If one were to do a study to prove or disprove the effectiveness of such a pipe dream, where would they start? What are some of the things that should be looked at and where might one find some of this information?

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=32570

[FFPCogs 863]

If one were to do a study to prove or disprove the effectiveness of such a pipe dream, where would they start? What are some of the things that should be looked at and where might one find some of this information?

Ok I'll chime in here since I'm a believer in consolidation in theory. I'm assuming you're talking about merging VFDs or Career and Volunteer FDs.

First and foremost a consolidation plan must address and PROVE that any merging of Departments, services and personnel is worth the effort. To merge simply to save money can have disasterous results. In the end it may put the community(s) involved at higher risk since members may walk and cost considerably MORE money when the only option left is to hire full time career personnel. Then based on that proof, a concensus must be reached that consolidating is the thing to do. Assuming that it is in everyone's best interest to consolidate than a good place to start is to do some thorough research and then contact departments that have already attempted a merger. Find out what works and what doesn't for them and why. Take what you need and leave the rest. Also a revision of existing or a completely new set of by-laws may well be needed as well since members will be merged and there may be conflicting by-laws from each member department.

If the number of volunteers is a part of the need for consolidation then you must look at why the numbers are lacking. Simply putting the current active members together may provide an immediate fix but will do nothing to ensure long term sustainability if new members are not joining. An aggressive recruitment effort will most likely be required to ensure that the stream of new members continues to flow in. Once that aspect has been addressed, then you have to look at how the members will be dispersed and how they will provide the coverage needed. Many consolidations inevitably lead to firehouses closing as companies or departments are merged. How will the personnel be distributed and utilized to best serve the community(s) involved? One of my pet projects if you will, is the establishment of in houes volunteer duty crews to ensure that coverage. It is my belief that duty crews effectively resolve most if not all lapses in coverage as stations are closed as the members are in house and can respond immediately to those calls which may require longer response times due to distance. There are other "pros" to duty shifts, and a number of "cons" as well that need to be thoroughly investigated prior to their implemenation.

Next comes responses. How will apparatus and personnel be distributed and how will they be assigned to alarms. Simply putting a bunch of rigs in one firehouse is not the answer. The most important question from this standpoint is: How will a merger benefit the public we serve? Like I said before consolidating usually has it's basis in cost savings, and that's fine, but to achieve that savings some aspects of each involved department may have to go. It may be equipment, apparatus, or even their firehouse. What you have to figure out is how will consolidating make the best use of the available resourses after the merge, as opposed to leaving things as is and simply relying on mutual aid.

Of course one very important factor is the need for paid full or part time employees. This one aspect can have a far reaching and long term positive and negative results. The addition of paid personnel can be a deal breaker to some, right or wrong. Before jumping the gun it is best to PROVE that paid people are necessary, (which to be frank is not usually that difficult) and get everyone on board with accepting this change as a necessity. A far greater burden is determining the level to which this newly consolidated department will rely on those career personnel. If they are to be the replacement of the volunteers then it may well prove wiser to let each member department make that determination for themselves and "go it alone". If they are to be a supplement to the volunteers to fill in for any gaps in coverage then it is imperative that this determination be made and adhered to by all parties involved BEFORE taking the irrevocable steps towards consolidating. Hiring personnel or merging existing career personnel and volunteers is neither good or bad, it is the choices made on how to best utilize that personnel that are. Paid personnel should be hired and staffed or incorporated to best serve the needs of the community(s) involved and every effort should be made to support that goal, otherwise animosities will take root and fester and may never be resolved.

There is much more but that's a start for now.

Stay Safe

Cogs

[firefighter36 52]

Tim, if you were looking to start such a pipe dream in NY, look here. http://www.nyslocalgov.org/

[helicopper 1,050]

Didn't Bergen County also have some success with this already? Isn't it the "North Bergen Regional Fire Department"?

I know some of the members from that area have chimed in here in the past, hopefully they will again.

[Lucifer 6]

Let's just suppose for a moment that a few people thought it may be a good idea to consolidate services to share equipment and manpower, reduce the tax burden on the taxpayers of several districts, and possibly even hire firefighters to provide adequate coverage and timely responses.

If one were to do a study to prove or disprove the effectiveness of such a pipe dream, where would they start? What are some of the things that should be looked at and where might one find some of this information?

Here's the link to a preliminary study that addresses some of those questions:

http://www.lohud.com/assets/pdf/BH13777471.PDF

[Bnechis 3,961]

Tim, if you were looking to start such a pipe dream in NY, look here. http://www.nyslocalgov.org/

The commission is a great place to start and they are willing and able to pay for studies and implimentation.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Didn't Bergen County also have some success with this already? Isn't it the "North Bergen Regional Fire Department"?

I know some of the members from that area have chimed in here in the past, hopefully they will again.

Chris, Its North Hudson Fire

[Bnechis 3,961]

Here's the link to a preliminary study that addresses some of those questions:

http://www.lohud.com/assets/pdf/BH13777471.PDF

Good looking study.....If you have any questions about it I know the authors

[helicopper 1,050]

Why'd this thread die such a quick death?

I have a question - how many "career" or "combination" departments can't meet the NFPA minimum standard of 12 firefighters plus one IC with their on-duty response personnel? What if anything is being done to remedy that?

You can't tell me that consolidation won't work; the issue is that too many people are afraid of losing turf/power or they're simply afraid of change.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why'd this thread die such a quick death?

No blue lights

I have a question - how many "career" or "combination" departments can't meet the NFPA minimum standard of 12 firefighters plus one IC with their on-duty response personnel? What if anything is being done to remedy that?

Chris the ISO standard is 12 + 1. The NFPA Standard is 3ff+1off on each rig. 1st due engine onscene in 6min (1min dispatch handling, 1min turnout, 4 minute drive) and a minimum of 15-16 ff/off (total onscene) in an additional 4min

FDNY & Yonkers are the only ones meeting NFPA south of Albany (I do not know if they do).

The ISO numbers can be suplemented by volunteers:

Career:

Eastchester

Mt Vernon

New Rochelle

White Plains

Yonkers

All have enough to meet ISO's 12+1 if they want to. Some would have to send most of the onduty fleet to do it.

Primary Career:

Fairview - 9 onduty

Greenville - 8 onduty + 3-4 Autoaid (Hartsdale) and Fire Chief (they are close)

Hartsdale - 8 onduty + 3-4 Autoaid (greenville)

Scarsdale - 9 onduty

Generally these depts need 3 additional volunteers responding on all calls for each position that they are short of. that would mean 3 - 12.

Primary Volunteer (some might debate which catagory, but these are depts that generally have less than 1/2 the numbers of career needed under ISO):

Harrison - 3 career, need a chief and 28 volunteers on every fire call

Larchmont - 3 career, need a chief and 28 volunteers on every fire call

Mamaroneck (Town) - 2-3 career, need a chief and 28-31 volunteers on every fire call

Mohegan - I do not know how many career are dispatched

Peekskill - I do not know how many career are dispatched

Pelham - 3 career, need a chief and 28 volunteers on every fire call

Pelham Manor - 3 career, need a chief and 28 volunteers on every fire call

Port Chester - 2 career?, need a chief and 31 volunteers on every fire call

Rye - 3 career, need a chief and 28 volunteers on every fire call

Rye Brook - Good Question

The all volunteer FD's need 36 plus a chief, not including members assigned to water supply/tanker ops.

These numbers are from memory, it is possible some have changed.

You can't tell me that consolidation won't work; the issue is that too many people are afraid of losing turf/power or they're simply afraid of change.

It is sad that 90% of the departments in this county can not meet a standard that has been around since fire horses and they will fight tooth and nail to prevent it. Most parts of the country and europe have all found that everyone is better protected after consolidation.

[50-65 205]

I believe that the turf/power thing is a big part of it. Unfortunately it pervades every sector of emergency services and the private sector as well.

I listened today to a call in the Hudson Valley for a confirmed working structure fire. The first due dept called for mutual aid to the scene from a department that is 8 +/- miles away in another county. Not a problem until you consider that they by-passed 3 closer depts. Then they started calling m/a for back fill and s/b. While we had a full crew (driver, officer, 2 ff) in house, we listened to one of the m/a companies (4 miles further away than us) re-sound so they could get an engine off the floor.

I believe that not until we get someone killed because of stupidity like this, and lose a major lawsuit, will things begin to change.

BTW, as an added bonus, I was in an ER last night and there was a crew from the VAC that I occaisionally ride with. I was working for a commercial company. I was told by one of the VAC crew members that they couldn't talk to me because I was working for the other company.

Serioulsy? Are we really that petty and pathetic?

[gamewell45 258]

Why'd this thread die such a quick death?

Overtime got cut....