Wanton Disregard of the Law?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

"They would be hypocrites to bust EMS and Fireman's balls over them.... for the sake of Firefighter and Medic Saftey - police officers simply "look the other way"...and we thank and respect them for that." -x129k

I think this sentence sums it up pretty well. It may not be right or legal but it is safer and smarter. Not all laws on the books today are fair or logical, technically you can still go to jail for having an affair but when was the last time anyone was arrested for that. To say that we cops need this light like this but you cant have it like that is moronic and as said above hypocritical.

[Guest Photounit]

I hear where you are coming from....but honestly - I don't see the big deal..but then again I have dark tinted windows and occasionally ride around with a non-license vanity plate on the front of my truck...LOL

Bottom line - Cops know rear facing blue are very effective at warning...so much so that they pushed to legalize them on police cars...

They would be hypocrites to bust EMS and Fireman's balls over them.... for the sake of Firefighter and Medic Saftey - police officers simply "look the other way"...and we thank and respect them for that.

This is one of those posts that has me scratching my head over its purpose...... But Dan, I agree - As things stand now, you pretty much hit it on the head...... The one thought that always crossed my mind throughout this whole blue light "fiasco" is during the whole process to change the present laws regarding the use of blue light, did any of the law makers or bill sponsors ever think that if the use of the blue light provides a significant safety benefit to the NYSP, why wouldn't we want to share this benefit with all public safety agencies? So if the true purpose of the bill was to improve safety, how did it ever get passed in its initial form and why are we here bickering about it now?

Edited September 14, 2009 by Photounit

[Remember585 815]

Why does the FASNY statement only say volunteer FD and EMS vehicles? We should be using blue and amber to the rear of all emergency vehicles and no more clear!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why does the FASNY statement only say volunteer FD and EMS vehicles? We should be using blue and amber to the rear of all emergency vehicles and no more clear!

Because its FASNY.

[Medic137 6]

I seems to me the only concern I have on a scene is the safety of my crew and patient. If a blue light increases our safety, I'll glady pay the ticket.

[AFS1970 504]

I do not know about NY traffic law, but I have read the CT version several times, and have dealt with various interpretations during my two stints as an officer in my department. But I think the wording in CT may explain some of the original question here.

the CT law provides for blue lights to be displayed on ...a vehicle being operated by an active member of a volunteer fire department or company or an active member of an organized civil preparedness auxiliary fire company...

Nowhere does is say that it must be a privately owned vehicle. Simply that the vehicle must be operated by a Volunteer Firefighter. So I would suppose that fire apparatus would count since none of us use non-members drivers.

[abaduck 123]

For me, it is not about the lights. It is about disregarding the law. Plain and simple.

I agree, from a different perspective. Dammit, there is (I think I'm correct in saying) a law against adultery in NY... if they decided to enforce THAT one, they would have to hire enough cops to wipe out unemployment overnight. This isn't about blue lights, this is about laws that are pretty much obsolete and pretty much totally disregarded - which I personally don't like: it lowers respect for the law in general, and it allows the possibility of 'getting' someone on a seldom-enforced technicality when it suits someone to do so. I wish politicians would spend more time repealing obsolete or unnecessary laws and less time making yet more laws.

Bad laws are bad law. Less law is good law.

(and I come from a country where until as recently as 1976 it was still a legal requirement for every cab driver to carry a bale of hay for the horse...)

[JimmyPFD 11]

OK- Stupid Law should be dropped and until then every emergency vehicle should be running lights that are moer easily seen and potentially save more lives.

Stop complaining and do what makes sense. You want to save lives? Push for all responders to be able to use to most effective tool and get a now foolish law off the books.

[NWFDMedic 58]

There are so many laws on the books that are antiquated that I just can't count them. The only issue I have with blue lights is that some of these newer blue LED lights have gone beyond warning and into the category of blinding. There is a local police agency that has these rear-facing lights and they leave their lights on at medical calls as "EMS indicators" to help us find the residence. However, I've noted that the newer lights, as you approach, actually blind you even if you don't look straight toward them at night. These lights were so obtrusive that I couldn't see my spotter the other night as I was backing into a driveway because of the light put off by a police car that by this point was on my passenger's side. I think they need to engineer a night setting for these LED's... I know the lights are lifesavers on the highway but the LED's are just too much.

[Guest paramedico987]

Frankly, if it will help people see the vehicles even a nanosecond sooner, I don't care what color one puts on their vehicle.

I see YPD coming EVERY time, and it's because they run red/white/blue in the front. It's eye catching and it works. I remain ticked off that there are so may who would lobby against changes to the VTL to allow different light colors due to a sense of nostalgia and concern over losing their vollie lights.

The real trouble is that it may present a liability for the department AFTER an accident. Some slick attorney could argue that their client was confused since the light pattern didn't reflect the VTL.

[helicopper 1,050]

Wow, interesting discussion.

First, a member posted a question and all other members should respect that. If you don't feel the thread is worthy of your comment, then don't comment. Posting about how irrelevant this is or how the topic is insignificant is disrespectful to your fellow member(s). How would you like it if that was the response to your parade thread or your discussion about a topic of interest to you? Above all, show some respect to your peers.

This is an important issue - the law states that there are limitations on use of colored/flashing lights and we should abide by them. We are not above the law. If nothing else (and I agree there may be liability issues regardless) there is a perception issue. When we ignore laws that are deemed trivial or beneath us, we are making a mistake. Look at how many people comment on us, especially law enforcement, using a cell phone while driving and we actually have an exemption in the law for that. The same is true of speeding, running red lights, etc. People, other emergency workers and the public, do see such things and can be critical of us for such violations. Instead of being relieved that law enforcement chooses to turn a blind eye to such offenses, we should be lobbying in Albany to get the law changed for our safety! This is the right way to do things yet we consistently choose the lazy way. And this is nothing more than laziness considering how much lobbying is done on some issues deemed trivial. Remember the furor over the CDL requirement? Chiefs threatened to park their apparatus unless the law was changed and the legislature listened. If the same outcry was raised about our safety at accident scenes, the law would be changed!

I’ve heard some of the same people who advocate violating these laws for their agencies complaining about tow trucks and HELP trucks displaying rear-facing red lights. And I agree, the State should change the law if these vehicles need such warning equipment. I wholeheartedly agree that blinding lights need to be addressed too.

Of course, it may mean that other antiquated laws governing green and blue lights on personal vehicles might have to be changed too. After all, they confer no special authority to the operator and it may be confusing for blue lights to be seen on non-emergency and emergency vehicles.

As for other laws, legislative bodies are notorious for passing legislation but they are not nearly so proactive about removing obsolete legislation (unless its enacted with a sunset clause). But the law is the law and you run the risk of being stopped for not having two license plates or having excessively tinted windows or any of the other laws that are on the books.

Debating the value or necessity of a statute enacted by appropriate governmental processes does not make it any less the law. If you don’t like it, change it but it should be followed – especially by quasi-government agencies like fire and EMS.

[petervonb 9]

Sigh. I guess talking about public safety officials wantonly violating existing laws is just...yes...not important.

Sadly, history shows that the most wanton violation of blue light laws occurred for many years among police officers and officials themselves!

For many, many years, the ONLY people in NY State who were allowed to use blue lights were volunteer firefighters. Nevertheless, thanks to movies and television shows with police using blue lights - front and rear - lots of people decided it was cool (see Smokey and the Bandit and The Dukes of Hazard). The result was a lot of police agencies simply put blue lights on their cars, Yonkers and Westchester County PD, to name a couple. Needless to say, the cops didn't seem to care that they were violating the law - and the only one trying to enforce it (and only occasionally) was the Secretary of State, rather then the State Police.

Such wanton disregard for the law, then or now, is not right, of course, and neither are those that say "What goes around comes around", but, on the other hand, the point is well taken that the lights, especially in certain other color combinations, are very, very effective.

Of course, we can blame it all on the former Chicago Superintendent of Police, Orlando Wilson (1960-1967), who, as part of cleaning up a scandal-ridden department said police cars weren't emergency vehicles so they didn't need red lights, and he outfitted them all with blue lights. That might have been a way to embarrass the overly gung-ho cops on the force at the time - or maybe it was just a way of letting the public know the corruption had been stopped. Now look what happened to all that - within 10 years, cops were clamoring for blue lights, even where it wasn't legal.

By the way, in Minnesota municipal dump trucks have blue lights and tow trucks have red lights. Go figure.

[helicopper 1,050]

Sadly, history shows that the most wanton violation of blue light laws occurred for many years among police officers and officials themselves!

For many, many years, the ONLY people in NY State who were allowed to use blue lights were volunteer firefighters. Nevertheless, thanks to movies and television shows with police using blue lights - front and rear - lots of people decided it was cool (see Smokey and the Bandit and The Dukes of Hazard). The result was a lot of police agencies simply put blue lights on their cars, Yonkers and Westchester County PD, to name a couple. Needless to say, the cops didn't seem to care that they were violating the law - and the only one trying to enforce it (and only occasionally) was the Secretary of State, rather then the State Police.

Such wanton disregard for the law, then or now, is not right, of course, and neither are those that say "What goes around comes around", but, on the other hand, the point is well taken that the lights, especially in certain other color combinations, are very, very effective.

Of course, we can blame it all on the former Chicago Superintendent of Police, Orlando Wilson (1960-1967), who, as part of cleaning up a scandal-ridden department said police cars weren't emergency vehicles so they didn't need red lights, and he outfitted them all with blue lights. That might have been a way to embarrass the overly gung-ho cops on the force at the time - or maybe it was just a way of letting the public know the corruption had been stopped. Now look what happened to all that - within 10 years, cops were clamoring for blue lights, even where it wasn't legal.

By the way, in Minnesota municipal dump trucks have blue lights and tow trucks have red lights. Go figure.

Another point of view is that the federal standard for law enforcement emergency vehicles is the combination of red and blue lights and has been for decades. The further out west you go the more standardized this is and PD is all red and blue. To imply that a couple of movies is what drove law enforcement to select them is quite a stretch. You're right it was illegal years ago for PD vehicles to use blue lights but that doesn't excuse all the agencies that are ignoring these and other laws today. It's the old cliche that two wrongs don't make a right.

[Guest Photounit]

Sorry Chris, But I for one stand by what I wrote....... And I thought about bringing up what petervonb did but I figured it wasn't worth it....... There is fault on both sides- Some past and some present....

[Tapout 42]

Wow, interesting discussion.

First, a member posted a question and all other members should respect that. If you don't feel the thread is worthy of your comment, then don't comment. Posting about how irrelevant this is or how the topic is insignificant is disrespectful to your fellow member(s). How would you like it if that was the response to your parade thread or your discussion about a topic of interest to you? Above all, show some respect to your peers.

There is no disrespect intended in just questioning the relevence of debating NY VTL when such discussion is being presented by a NH resident (not affected by said NY laws). All opinions here thus far have been respectful, just not always in agreement with the initial poster or the need to even discuss such a topic yet AGAIN. It's a dead horse at this point. It's been beaten beyond recognition and we ALL need to step away from it already!

Again, in this, there is no disrespect. God knows, if there had been, we would not be reading such posts as they would have been deleted by now! LOL! (Don't erase me, bro!!! )

Edited September 15, 2009 by Tapout

[ckroll 101]

There is no disrespect intended in just questioning the relevence of debating NY VTL when such discussion is being presented by a NH resident (not affected by said NY laws). All opinions here thus far have been respectful, just not always in agreement with the initial poster or the need to even discuss such a topic yet AGAIN. It's a dead horse at this point. It's been beaten beyond recognition and we ALL need to step away from it already!

Nah, it's still nickering.

And consider this, in my town/county 'deputy' chiefs are permitted red lights for responding [ to the fire house to sit there]. The clear intent of the law is to permit people of authority, i.e. deputy inspectors, to respond with red lights, yet the fire service uses it as a perk for former chiefs. Someone who was a chief 20 years ago should not have red flashers in their grill.

Second, I am persuaded by the argument that a law is a law and the proper course of action is to abide by it while getting it changed. That said, if memory serves, we had this discussion with respect to enforcing marijuana laws and the majority felt on that issue that law is the law and must be enforced. Blue light laws should be no different.

[trauma74 111]

I know that many of the members here feel that the topic of blue lights has been beaten to death, but no matter what, there will always be some discussion on it, at least until the law is changed.

I do agree with the fact that it was wrong on the part of the NYS law makers to limit rear facing blue lights to police vehicles only. When it comes to the safety of all emergency services/public safety agencies, laws like this should cover all of the services. When the law was changed to allow PD vehicles to have rear facing blue lights, I checked further into the law and who sponsored it and what police organization(s) were behind the change. It turns out that the NYS Sheriffs Association were the ones who made the big push for the change. I found it odd that it wasnt the NYSP who made the biggest push.

I also read that the Sheriffs Association, at the time of their push for rear facing blue for PD, brought up having forward facing blue lights for PD. Since there was a big push for rear facing blue for PD, I think the push for forward facing blue will gain momentum and eventually become law.

Just like many PDs began using rear facing blue before it became a law, there are the PDs around NY that have forward facing blue. I know that Yonkers PD has had the combination of blue and red facing in all directions for as far back as I can remember. Does anyone know if YPD has been penalized by the State or anyone else for having blue in all directions? Has this ever been brought up in a court of law when a YPD unit was involved in an accident? Is there a City Law/Ordinance in Yonkers that supersedes NYS VTL? I know that the FEDS can have Blue & Red because they supercede NYS VTL.

What other PD agencies in Westchester and the surrounding areas have forward facing blue? Is there any FDs or EMS agencies that have forward and/or rear facing blue??

When it comes to FASNY & other fire based organizations not supporting blue lights on FD & EMS vehicles, I believe that its because they are afraid that the laws giving volunteer firefighters the use of blue lights will be taken away.

IMHO, this is what they should do........change the law to the following for EMERGENCY VEHICLES : ALL PD/FD/EMS vehicles will have a combination of red & blue facing in all directions. No single colors (i.e. no all red or all blue for emergency vehicles). Clear can be used, but only to the front, to avoid blinding drivers approaching from the rear and/or the sides. Amber can be used in any direction except for the front so there is no confusion to drivers of vehicles you are behind or approaching. All strobe & LED rear lighting should have a way to be dimmed, like an intensity controller. Green lights, will only be used on Incident Command vehicles (PD/FD/EMS) when they are stationary at a scene. ONE green light will be used for this purpose. Also, have ALL emergency vehicles follow the NFPA standard for on scene operations, as soon as the vehicle has been place into "PARK", all white flashing lights will shut off. This will prevent other motorists as well as personel working on the scene from being blinded by these lights.

Now, for the POVs of ALL FIRE & EMS VOLUNTEERS: Green lights will no longer be permitted for EMS volunteers since a green light will be utilized by emergency vehicles when they are the IC vehicle. ALL FIRE & EMS volunteers will use forward facing blue lights and/or the combination of blue/clear lights. Rear facing lights on volunteer POVs can be any combination of the following, blue, red and amber. There would also no longer be a limit on the number of blue lights that a volunteer may install for use on their POVs. An airhorn, not a siren, just an electronic airhorn, there is one sold by Whelen, may be used in combination with the blue or blue/clear combination. This will help the volunteer get the attention of the motorist they are behind so that motorist can pull over for them.

To go along with all of these changes, the blue lights for volunteers will now be a little more than courtesy lights. Motorists would be required to move over to the right and yield the right of way to the volunteer. Volunteers will still have to operate their vehicles with due regard and obey all traffic laws. When another motorist pulls over to the right side of the road, the volunteer may only pass when it is deemed safe to do so.

FASNY and the other FD organizations should find this just fine. It isnt taking anything away from them. As a matter of fact, this law will help out the volunteers. Aside from making it a law that motorists will now be required to pull over for volunteers, the fact that all emergency vehicles will have forward facing blue lights in combination with red will help the volunteers out, motorists will get used to seeing the blue on the FD/PD/EMS vehicles and anytime that they are actually paying attention and they see blue coming up behind them, they will be thinking that they need to give the right of way.

To tired to write anymore! Need some sleep! Everyone be careful & stay safe!

[ex-commish 490]

Many parades now have rules that say if you have a blue light on \your fire apparatus you are immediately disqualified

I would hope that being disqualified from a parade would be the least reason not to have blue lights on the rig.

[ex-commish 490]

To go along with all of these changes, the blue lights for volunteers will now be a little more than courtesy lights. Motorists would be required to move over to the right and yield the right of way to the volunteer. Volunteers will still have to operate their vehicles with due regard and obey all traffic laws. When another motorist pulls over to the right side of the road, the volunteer may only pass when it is deemed safe to do so.

Isn't this how the law currently reads?

[Medic137 6]

I would hope that being disqualified from a parade would be the least reason not to have blue lights on the rig.

SACRILEGE, HERESY!! Just kidding Andy, I agree completely.

[50-65 205]

To go along with all of these changes, the blue lights for volunteers will now be a little more than courtesy lights. Motorists would be required to move over to the right and yield the right of way to the volunteer. Volunteers will still have to operate their vehicles with due regard and obey all traffic laws. When another motorist pulls over to the right side of the road, the volunteer may only pass when it is deemed safe to do so.

Isn't this how the law currently reads?

In principle, it does apply to the underlined portion but not the preceeding part. The law does require that the volunteer obey all traffic laws. Due regard is just common sense but I don't believe that it is actually stated in the section on V&T that regulates blue lights. The general public, however, is under no obligation to yield to blue lights. In fact, I have seen many drivers purposely go out of their way to obstruct a vehicle with blue lights on, just the same as many do to vehicles with red & white lights and the siren going.

[ckroll 101]

In principle, it does apply to the underlined portion but not the preceeding part. The law does require that the volunteer obey all traffic laws. Due regard is just common sense but I don't believe that it is actually stated in the section on V&T that regulates blue lights. The general public, however, is under no obligation to yield to blue lights. In fact, I have seen many drivers purposely go out of their way to obstruct a vehicle with blue lights on, just the same as many do to vehicles with red & white lights and the siren going.

It is not mentioned in the section regarding blue lights. It is mentioned in the section of law regarding operation of emergency vehicles. the phrase is"so long as it is safe" and I will get a reference for it. The principle as I understand and apply it is that one is given a great deal of discretion, so long as no accident occurs. If there is one, the lion's share of responsibility falls to the operator of the vehicle responding to an emergency who did something, as determined by its consequences, that was not safe.

[JBE 328]

HEY!!! What about the blue lights on the buses on Fordham Road?!??!?!? Sorry, personal opinion, much ado about nothing.

[x129K 1,393]

Dougie....it is scary that you A. thought about that long enough to develop your own plan...and B. took the time to write it! LOLOLOL

[trauma74 111]

129K,

THANKS!