Wanton Disregard of the Law?

[STAT213 332]

So, as far as has been posted on here, no law yet exists allowing Fire or EMS apparatus to have blue lights as part of their warning packages.

Yet, time after time someone puts up pictures of their new deliveries and there they are: Blue lights.

Why do people think it is acceptable to just disregard this section of the V and T code? Is it a societal thing?

I can tell you that it does not happen here in NH. I have not seen ONE Fire or EMS vehicle with a blue light. Not one.

So, why do people in NY behave this way? Can anyone answer this question? I only offer the example of NY d/t the location of the majority of folks on the board. It might not be limited to NY.

Is it an enforcement issue? If I was a trooper and saw an ambulance with blue lights, they would get the standard fix it warning, followed by the citation. I know I would not operate an emergnecy vehicle in NYS that had blue lights on them. I would be willfully violating a V and T law. I would politely tell my employer to find me another vehicle to use that did not violate the law.

Can anyone rightfully defend the practice?

Now as for the whole don't talk about blue lights part of this forum, I believe that the motivation of that law was to stop the relentless bickering about the use of blue lights on POVs, not the violation of the law in putting them on emergency vehicles.

Now, if the law has changed, and they are allowed...awesome. I will happily retract my post. Happily.

[Mark Z 18]

Maybe because it just isn't that important and there are WAY TOO MANY more important things to discuss, improve or otherwise change than the use of blue lights by an emergency vehicle??

[INIT915 1,119]

Is it an enforcement issue? If I was a trooper and saw an ambulance with blue lights, they would get the standard fix it warning, followed by the citation. I know I would not operate an emergnecy vehicle in NYS that had blue lights on them. I would be willfully violating a V and T law. I would politely tell my employer to find me another vehicle to use that did not violate the law.

Not sure what you mean by enforcement issue. Law Enforcement (in NYS at least) has very, very few mandated enforcement issues, and they primarily relate to domestic violence and order of protection violations. Nothing manadating enforcement of the VTL.

[20y2 43]

THe first two answers hit the nail on the head. I could care less if another emergecy vehicle had a blue light on it when it wasn't supposed to, discretion is one of the greatest things a police officer has. I can totally ignore certain laws if I wanted to. The blue light law is definitely one that I will be ignoring, at least in regards to other emergency vehicles.

[Goose 188]

I dont get why it needs to be a law for emergency vehicles (other than radio cars, i know a law was signed for them) to use blue lights...dosen't the science prove that they are more effective at long distances?

[x635 4,066]

In Texas, DOT and construction vehicles have rear facing amber and blue lights, for safety reasons

I understand the law, and the disregard for it, but I also feel strongly that a lot of laws on the books, especially in NYS, adversly affect public safety and the ability to keep up with progressive trends.

[JetPhoto 626]

Maybe because it just isn't that important and there are WAY TOO MANY more important things to discuss, improve or otherwise change than the use of blue lights by an emergency vehicle??

Any topic involving safety is important on this site.

NYS Blue lights have been a topic on here in the past and nys law now states POLICE VEHICLES may operate a rear facing blue light not fire or ems.

Many parades now have rules that say if you have a blue light on \your fire apparatus you are immediately disqualified

[STAT213 332]

Sigh. I guess talking about public safety officials wantonly violating existing laws is just...yes...not important.

In my opinion, it is important and relevant. So, I discuss it.

[x635 4,066]

Sigh. I guess talking about public safety officials wantonly violating existing laws is just...yes...not important.

In my opinion, it is important and relevant. So, I discuss it.

But are these public safety officials violating the law FOR public and responder safety?????

[Bnechis 3,961]

I dont get why it needs to be a law for emergency vehicles (other than radio cars, i know a law was signed for them) to use blue lights...dosen't the science prove that they are more effective at long distances?

NYS has a very powerful lobbying group that will fight this fight and make sure that blue lights no matter how effective at protecting firefighters and the public, shall never be allowed on emergency vehicles.

FASNY claims to represent all volunteer firefighters, but in many lobbying efforts they take positions that hurt everyone. They do not want fire apparatus to have blue lights because they believe the vollunteers should have the exclusive use of blue lights for their POV's.

The volunteers who actually protect their communities need to know how they are represented in Albany and what laws get pushed on everyone because thats what FASNY thinks is best for the volunteers.

[Tapout 42]

Sigh. I guess talking about public safety officials wantonly violating existing laws is just...yes...not important.

In my opinion, it is important and relevant. So, I discuss it.

That's great, but my question is 2-fold: 1. what exactly is your argument? and 2. To whom exactly do you wish to direct your anger/frustration/venom?

You may have lived in NY previously as Stat Flight (I received all your wrecks as a WMC ER RN back in the day, thank you very much), but presently as a NH resident, what's your CURRENT argument with NY blue lights and, more importantly, what is the relevence of said argument?

I love the blue lights. In combo with red there is nothing cooler or more attention-grabbing. Provided said blue light isn't trying to run me off the road, I'm sooo much more than cool with them.

My $.02, of course.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Warning lights are what they are...WARNING LIGHTS!!!!! They are made to WARN people and different colors are used so that drivers can see emergency apparatus.

Sorry Its a dead issue to keep bringing this up. There was a bill passed (If I am remembering correctly) in the NY legislature to allow blue lenses for police and / or emergency vehicles. Its already on the books despite there is no written clarification in the current state legislative manual. (I am going by what I have read here in other threads and if I'm missing or wrong on something please correct me).

I'm just glad I live in CT where it is cut and dry / black and white.

[Goose 188]

So it's FASNY that is blocking ambulances and fire trucks from using blue lights? Why would they care? How does a blue light on the back of an ambulance or pumper effect what a volunteer uses in their dash?

[STAT213 332]

But are these public safety officials violating the law FOR public and responder safety?????

So that makes it ok? Wow.

My argument is this: Stop breaking the law. Set the example by being a professional and obeying the law.

I like the combination of blue and red lights as much as the next guy. Problem is, in NY it is NOT allowed. And yet department after department just says...screw it, we will do what we want.

Amazing to me.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

drive through Croton with a blue light on a fire or EMS vehicle, and it will get ticketed...

[x635 4,066]

So it's FASNY that is blocking ambulances and fire trucks from using blue lights? Why would they care? How does a blue light on the back of an ambulance or pumper effect what a volunteer uses in their dash?

This is the explanation on the FASNY site:

BLUE LIGHT – This initiative would update NYS Vehicle & Traffic law to allow fire and

ambulance vehicles to affix blue lights on the back of their vehicle facing to the rear as

authorized for police vehicles. Historically, the Volunteer Firefighter has had exclusive use of

the Blue Light. Recent studies demonstrated that when projected to the rear it has significant

perceptual advantages over lights of other color. The legislature allowed for this application

for police vehicles. This legislation would allow blue lights used for rear projection on all

volunteer fire and ambulance vehicles.

HIGHWAY EMERGENCY INCIDENT SAFETY ZONE – Current NYS Vehicle &

Traffic Law creates a highway emergency incident safety zone, which is delineated by red

and white flashing lights on emergency vehicles. This legislation would add blue lights

updating the statute and would increase existing penalties for violators in order to further

protect the first responders.

http://www.fasny.com/legislation_issues-scorecard.aspx

[gamewell45 258]

So, as far as has been posted on here, no law yet exists allowing Fire or EMS apparatus to have blue lights as part of their warning packages.

Yet, time after time someone puts up pictures of their new deliveries and there they are: Blue lights.

Why do people think it is acceptable to just disregard this section of the V and T code? Is it a societal thing?

I can tell you that it does not happen here in NH. I have not seen ONE Fire or EMS vehicle with a blue light. Not one.

So, why do people in NY behave this way? Can anyone answer this question? I only offer the example of NY d/t the location of the majority of folks on the board. It might not be limited to NY.

Is it an enforcement issue? If I was a trooper and saw an ambulance with blue lights, they would get the standard fix it warning, followed by the citation. I know I would not operate an emergnecy vehicle in NYS that had blue lights on them. I would be willfully violating a V and T law. I would politely tell my employer to find me another vehicle to use that did not violate the law.

Can anyone rightfully defend the practice?

Now as for the whole don't talk about blue lights part of this forum, I believe that the motivation of that law was to stop the relentless bickering about the use of blue lights on POVs, not the violation of the law in putting them on emergency vehicles.

Now, if the law has changed, and they are allowed...awesome. I will happily retract my post. Happily.

Technically your correct; however I honestly believe that the police in NY have much better things to do then chase down fire apparatus for blue light violations.

[x635 4,066]

My argument is this: Stop breaking the law. Set the example by being a professional and obeying the law.

I like the combination of blue and red lights as much as the next guy. Problem is, in NY it is NOT allowed. And yet department after department just says...screw it, we will do what we want.

There are laws on the books that are antiquated and aren't even enforced in NYS. This should be a "pick your battles" issue, and even though it's against state law, we as emergency responders are one, and PD should understand since they have the protection of blue to the rear to not enforce it until it passes in Albany-after all, they'll probaly be on the scene to.

I see your point about breaking the law, but it's a double edged sword. There are TONS of technicalities on PD,FD, and EMS vehicles that are unlawful, yet no one says a thing. If EVERY NYS V&T law was enforced, we'd be back enforcing laws put into effect decades ago, and it would make no sense.

In the grand scheme of things, this law isn't one that's harming anyone and I doubt anyone is intentionally wanting to break the law. Enforcing this law would also create further tension between PD and FD's in some communities. And this isn't something that the public really notices, so we're not setting any example that we're above the law. What benefit would come from enforcing this law?

I'm sure that there are many other laws that some fire companies are breaking that are much more pressing then this.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So it's FASNY that is blocking ambulances and fire trucks from using blue lights? Why would they care? How does a blue light on the back of an ambulance or pumper effect what a volunteer uses in their dash?

They lobbied for many years to maintain it for personnal vehicles. When the NYSP finally made its big push about 2 years ago, they back down on PD vehicles, because they were afraid that they would lose any rights to the lights in POV.

This is the explanation on the FASNY site:http://www.fasny.com/legislation_issues-scorecard.aspx

Thanks Seth, Looks like they have changed there position from 2 yeas ago.

[INIT915 1,119]

This is the explanation on the FASNY site:

http://www.fasny.com/legislation_issues-scorecard.aspx

Reading those position statements, they don't appear to be opposed any longer.

[Bnechis 3,961]

There are laws on the books that are antiquated and aren't even enforced in NYS. This should be a "pick your battles" issue, and even though it's against state law, we as emergency responders are one, and PD should understand since they have the protection of blue to the rear to not enforce it until it passes in Albany-after all, they'll probaly be on the scene to.

Instead of having PD deal with this issue (which in most cases they do not care to waste resources on it) potentially the courts will handle it. How will a chief explain to the community if the vehicle is involved in an MVA and the other vehicle or its insurance carrier sues and wins? This is not just about rear blue, I have seen a number of rigs with front blue as well. In those cases, a vehicle accident while runing RLS will result in even higher liability for an agency.

In the grand scheme of things, this law isn't one that's harming anyone and I doubt anyone is intentionally wanting to break the law. Enforcing this law would also create further tension between PD and FD's in some communities. And this isn't something that the public really notices, so we're not setting any example that we're above the law. What benefit would come from enforcing this law?

I have been in a room with a number of chiefs who were told that blue's were illigal and the response was "we dont care" & "we will do what want"

Just because the people do not know, depts are still placing themselves above the law. The real issue is lets change the law. And with FASNY no longer against it (as you pointed out) this time it should pass.

I'm sure that there are many other laws that some fire companies are breaking that are much more pressing then this.

Very true. 2 in 2 out, physicals, training, facial hair, etc.......

[x635 4,066]

Thanks Seth, Looks like they have changed there position from 2 yeas ago.

I was suprised myself when I read that. However the wording still says "volunteer" emergency vehicles, so I assume that the pending legislation would not affect career emergency vehicles?

NO emergency official should place themselves above the laws, however some think that the title Chief is synomous with supreme ruler.

[INIT915 1,119]

Instead of having PD deal with this issue (which in most cases they do not care to waste resources on it) potentially the courts will handle it. How will a chief explain to the community if the vehicle is involved in an MVA and the other vehicle or its insurance carrier sues and wins?

Are you aware of a civil case of this nature? (Serious question, not sarcasm.)

[dadbo46 50]

So, should we throw in to the discussion the use of amber lights on rigs and ambulances ?

[x129K 1,393]

So, should we throw in to the discussion the use of amber lights on rigs and ambulances ?

Irrelivant - AMBER is not soley dedicated to any one service provider.

[STAT213 332]

For me, it is not about the lights. It is about disregarding the law. Plain and simple.

[x129K 1,393]

For me, it is not about the lights. It is about disregarding the law. Plain and simple.

I hear where you are coming from....but honestly - I don't see the big deal..but then again I have dark tinted windows and occasionally ride around with a non-license vanity plate on the front of my truck...LOL

Bottom line - Cops know rear facing blue are very effective at warning...so much so that they pushed to legalize them on police cars...

They would be hypocrites to bust EMS and Fireman's balls over them.... for the sake of Firefighter and Medic Saftey - police officers simply "look the other way"...and we thank and respect them for that.

[JohnnyOV 2]

For me, it is not about the lights. It is about disregarding the law. Plain and simple.

I put it like this. Studies have shown, like previously stated, that blue lights are better for visibility in the rear. As a chief, I would want what is best / safest for my responders, even if it goes against what the law says. The law will hopefully one day catch up to what should have been done along time ago, but until then, im going to take whats scientifically proven to work safer, over what a god knows how old law says.

p.s. this is as pointless at discussing the law in Utah that states "No one may have sex in the back of an ambulance if it is responding to an emergency call."

[dadbo46 50]

Irrelivant - AMBER is not soley dedicated to any one service provider.

Oh contrare. Amber lights are reserved for hazard vehicles.

See NYSVTL § 375 (41). Colored and flashing lights.

http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/emer-vt.htm#sec375

[x129K 1,393]

Oh contrare. Amber lights are reserved for hazard vehicles.

See NYSVTL § 375 (41). Colored and flashing lights.

http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/emer-vt.htm#sec375

My bad