Boat Fire Scenario - Strategy and Tactics Discussion

[aacofd40 6]

In keeping with the email that we rcvd this weekend, I thought this would be a good war story, lesson learned, and experience-sharing opportunity. Not to mention some pretty great pics too. Here's the story:

We were first due to the boat fire. The call is located in a part of our first due on a river and with no hydrants. We were staffed with 4 in a 750g engine. Coming out of our station was the engine, the tower, the battalion chief (he was doing his rounds and was at the firehouse), and the volunteer chief. The remainder of the box consisted of 3 more engines, 2 tankers, a squad, and a quint (acting as the 2nd truck) – this is the standard box assignment to a fire in a non-hydrant area- three fireboats, and some other special operations staff. Enroute, we were advised that Fire Alarm was receiving numerous calls, and companies responding across the bridge reported a large column of smoke. The Battalion Chief arrived first and reported an approximately 35 foot powerboat at the end of the pier with heavy fire. We arrived and laid approx 300 feet of 5" from the nearest intersection. We are pretty familiar with establishing water supply operations, so the next due engine would complete the lay to the drafting site (we draft directly from the river) while the first due tanker would also tie into the line to give our engine its water while the draft was set up. The squad and the second truck to the scene, and the engines and tankers to water supply. The volunteer chief ran water supply.

Once we got to the scene, we pulled a 3" line (this is a dead load), a gated Y, and our standpipe pack (200 ft of 1¾). The pier was about 200 feet below the house down a staircase, and then probably another 75 feet to the boat. We left the 3" at the foot of the pier, at the bottom of the stairs, and connected the 1¾ and stretched to the boat.

We put water on the fire until the fireboat showed up. Once the Fireboat showed up, we pulled back to allow for them to extinguish the fire. They used a preconnected foam line, and made good progress, though they could not get inside the cabin. Once the bulk of the fire was knocked down, we went back up, and mopped up with the foam line from the fireboat inside the cabin.

To answer some of the questions you may (or may not have):

1. Our SOP's require us to wear PFD's within 50 feet of the water. During suppression ops, it is expected that you will wear them under your coat.

2. The boat was a total loss, but from an owners perspective (and the insurance company) we did a great service by putting the fire out before the boat sank. It is much more difficult and expensive to raise a boat then to tow it.

3. We did get on the boat to mop up and hit the pockets of fire that could not be reached by the fireboat or from the pier. Getting on the boat was similar to getting on a roof. We sounded it before and was especially concerned with how it felt. The hull looked good from all sides, and there was no listing to indicate it was breached.

4. We did not run out of water, but we did run out of foam. All of our engines have a built in foam tank, so their were none of the old foam containers available. And, pumping foam from an engine was not an option.

5. The pics all came from one of the guests in the house. She took about 200 pics and was kind enough to drop off a disc at the firehouse and allow us to use them as we see fit.

Enjoy, and if you have any questions, post them and I will do my best to answer them. But, if others want to chime in on tactics or what they would do in a similar situation, have at it. This is like a virtual kitchen table.

Be Safe,

JR

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[hudson144 150]

Great topic with a storyline. The importance of foam can't be stressed enough here. Besides a quick knockdown(fiberglass,plastics,oils etc) the foam will provide a blanket in case the fuel tank does rupture or leak. Don't underestimate the size of the boat thinking that it may only have 1 -6 gallon container of gasoline because it is powered by 1 outboard motor. My own boat is 21' and it has a 105 gal fuel tank below the floor. From a recent incident that i was involved with, heavy fire condition on a 30' boat with exposure problems because of 15-20 knot winds 3 boats were involved within minutes. Secure the vessel with additional lines, (ropes) in this case the 4 lines securing the boat on the exp 4 side of the original boat on fire burnt away and the flaming vessel headed to the next dock with other boats.It got caught on the boat well where the boats are lowered into the water with a lift. Lessons learned? Yes- i am sure more can be added to this topic. In prime time summer as you arrive at the boat club take notice of the amout of vehicles are around,many of the boaters live on these boats throughout the summer and I know for a fact many have kids on board. This can be a real problem for all involved! B Safe, Hudson.

Edited September 9, 2009 by hudson144

[Bnechis 3,961]

Another thing that most have never considered (particularly when looking at the narrow piers/docks & smoke conditions) is having a FAST team set for water rescue seperate from fire rescue, to be able to go after a firefighter in the water.

[ems-buff 81]

aacofd40, What a great story, and learning opportunity!!! Thank you so much for sharing it with us. Very nice knock down....

I know I speak for most of the staff, when I say that this is the kind of topics EMTBravo was created for. Thank you once again for sharing your knowledge from this incident.

[Guest]

How hard is it to enforce the PFD policy? It seems like a no brainer, but you know what happens when adrenaline starts to flow... I would bescared to death as an officer that one of the men would fall in, especially in a smoke condition!

[hudson144 150]

Damned if you do,damned if you don't! There is no way i could put a PFD on and then put on an air pack. Do you put it on under your turnout? over the turnout? Air pack on top of it all/ interesting to see how it should be done.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Damned if you do,damned if you don't! There is no way i could put a PFD on and then put on an air pack. Do you put it on under your turnout? over the turnout? Air pack on top of it all/ interesting to see how it should be done.

Also consider this, what is the composition in PFDs? Lightweight foam for flotation, and what does foam do when exposed to heat/fire?????

I know that your SOP states to wear it underneath your Turnout, but how is that in reality, I have never tried it, it just seems completely impractical.

Thank you for bringing up an excellent real-life discussion. The pictures to go along with it make it a FANTASTIC teaching tool!!!

[jack10562 414]

Has anyone tried a water immersion experiment with full structural PPE on?

Suppose someone fell off the dock, How long do you think that someone can keep their head above water in wet bunkers, boots, gloves, a pack, and all that"other gear"??? ( in deep water)

If they DO get "in trouble" who's going to go in and get him/her? Another similarly dressed member?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Has anyone tried a water immersion experiment with full structural PPE on?

Suppose someone fell off the dock, How long do you think that someone can keep their head above water in wet bunkers, boots, gloves, a pack, and all that"other gear"??? ( in deep water)

If they DO get "in trouble" who's going to go in and get him/her? Another similarly dressed member?

I once heard that a Positive Pressure SCBA is operational down to 15 feet below water, anyone have any knowledge of such?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Some of you raise some great points and got me thinking about a few other things:

1. I really liked how I saw the members donning their masks on the dock and didn't do so prematurely. That is a narrow dock and would rather be able to see where I'm walking..far to many people are running around incidents with their masks on and all fogged up.

2. Most of what I learned from ship firefighting came from when I was a federal firefighter and we had some guys come in from naval federal bases. I know in some operations it helps to pump the water out your putting in so the vessel can be towed as well.

3. I venture to wonder that if I could if I would have even went so far as to assign firefighters on a 1 to 1 basis and have the back up firefighters place a looped section of webbing girth hitched to the operating members SCBA's as a back up in the event they went into the water. I'd have to try the PFD under concept with the SCBA. I find it interesting that some worry about the PFD's composition but yet will have more crap attached and stuck on their helmet and PPE that is worse...or will even wear clothing of synthetic fiber under PPE to begin with. Its not much different. To me as a safety officer or IC I stand a greater chance of having a member go in the drink then having them caught in a flash fire or wind driven fire if the wind shifts...

Thanks for sharing such an interesting and thought provoking story!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I once heard that a Positive Pressure SCBA is operational down to 15 feet below water, anyone have any knowledge of such?

Hey man...you're a member of a fire district...they have the money to replace it quickly...give it a shot lol.

[aacofd40 6]

The PFD policy is a tough one. They are the typical foam, USCG certified vests, that you are suppose to put on under your turnout coat. Having done it, the bottle is not so bad (the straps fall nicely on the shoulder pads), but it is very tight and very hot inside the coat. If you are working hard, your breathing can be pretty labored and taking deep breaths can be challenging. It also makes mobility tough. What is also a problem (and divers can provide more insight) is all the gear and a bottle may reduce the buoyancy – and even create negative buoyancy – that may leave you face down in the water or act as a weight belt and you sink like a rock.

The paid guys used to go to the pool in turnout gear and practice floating while breathing air and without (not sure if that is still a requirement). I have never done it, but I have heard the same thing that if you are breathing air you are good to go for at least the depths that we would be. I agree that it is pretty much a nightmare scenario to fall into the water in full PPE. During this call, the LT was adamant about holding onto the nozzleman to make sure that he did not fall into the water.

As for enforcement, the officers are pretty good at reminding you to do it. And, as soon as I was carrying down the standpipe pack to the pier, I passed the chief who asked me if I was wearing my PFD.

Overall I am not convinced that we have situations like this wired for safety as much as they can/should be. You guys make great points about FAST/RIT teams and about the risks. We run these types of incidents often enough that we should be more aware of the risks and have better mitigation plans for them. We get in the water every year in the gumby suits (cold water immersion) so maybe we should do the same with our turnout gear.

Be safe,

JR

[Bnechis 3,961]

Has anyone tried a water immersion experiment with full structural PPE on?

Suppose someone fell off the dock, How long do you think that someone can keep their head above water in wet bunkers, boots, gloves, a pack, and all that"other gear"??? ( in deep water)

If they DO get "in trouble" who's going to go in and get him/her? Another similarly dressed member?

Yes, I was in a class in PA in the early 1990's. You can float on your back (with knees up) in turnouts. DO NOT TRY TO SWIM!!!.... The air trapped in the knees & shoulders pluss the tank will keep you on the surface. Also recommended to take off your helmet and pull it toward your chest (trapping the air in it). Have others fish you out.

This is a good call to have a couple of 12' hooks both to fish you out & to grab the boat.

You will be so heavy that you may not be able to pull your self out, but inching up and allowing for drainage helps.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I once heard that a Positive Pressure SCBA is operational down to 15 feet below water, anyone have any knowledge of such?

It is not "operational", it will free flow air, you can breath it till it runs out in a couple of minutes (its like opening the purg valve and leaving it open). Then be prepared to replace or spend $1,000's to fix.

[ny10570 745]

Phenomenal thread. Thanks for the detailed story and photos. Any thoughts about going with an inline foam eductor? Then all you need is a bucket and the drain valve on the foam tanks.

FDNY recently conducted buoyancy tests for members in EMS and suppression bunker gear. You have 5 minutes of positive buoyancy that can be increased by calmly floating and not attempting to swim.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

aacofd40; thanks very much for taking the time to put together an excellent post, and starting an interesting conversation about the incident, floating with full gear and SCBA, Capt. Nechis bringing up the RIT/FAST ops for this type of fire, and it goes on. I've learned a lot from this thread.

~Stay safe.

[helicopper 1,050]

Phenomenal thread. Thanks for the detailed story and photos. Any thoughts about going with an inline foam eductor? Then all you need is a bucket and the drain valve on the foam tanks.

FDNY recently conducted buoyancy tests for members in EMS and suppression bunker gear. You have 5 minutes of positive buoyancy that can be increased by calmly floating and not attempting to swim.

This is a great thread. Thanks for posting it and to all who've responded.

One question about the NYC buoyancy tests - were they conducted with new PPE or PPE that has been worn and washed and crushed in a gear bag in someone's trunk or locker for days on end? Will used PPE provide that same level of buoyancy? I doubt it when you consider that testing of most other products shows substantial degradation over time and declining condition.

Five minutes of positive buoyancy - assuming a calm responder - is next to nothing. If a rescue team is not in place on scene and leaning forward that time can be lost along with your expensive PPE and SCBA - oh yeah, and the guy wearing it!!! Kidding aside, we all work near water whether it be lakes, reservoirs, rivers, the LI Sound, etc. and we need to be proactive about protecting ourselves.

[ny10570 745]

Sorry, I had the times wrong from the dept study. After looking it up, here's the results for Supression bunker gear. Without the SCBA you have only 2.5 minutes of positive buoyancy. Due to the compressive affect of the SCBA straps positive buoyancy lasts only 1.5 minutes. In short, without a life jacket you're not going to stay afloat long enough for someone to come get you. The tests were performed in fresh water, using dry gear for each test, and different types of dept issued footwear. Boots or shoes had no affect and attempts to swim or remove the gear significantly decreased the buoyancy time.

There's nothing mentioned in the results as to wether or not the gear was new, however the EMS gear tested was used.

Edited September 11, 2009 by ny10570

[Remember585 815]

I sat in on Mickey Conboy's seminar in Rockland a couple of weeks ago, and he mentioned that experiments showed that our gear weighs around 80 pounds when soaking wet. Can you imagine how hard it would be to try and swim in it?

In May we reviewed turnout gear buoyancy / safety in immersions during our Water Rescue class. Good info.

Great post, thanks for bringing it up!