Video of Raleigh Tiller Crash Released

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Scroll down to see the video taken from a traffic camera. Hard to believe none of the brothers were seriously injured in this one. The photos and video also tell me that whoever designed the Tillerman's cab did one hell of a good job.

http://firefighterclosecalls.com/fullstory.php?91844

PS: $750,000 ladder truck....totalled.

Edited August 25, 2009 by efdcapt115

[jfmuller 23]

What's amazing to me is the vehicle at the light just continues on like nothing happened. Was probably on the phone, perhaps texting man you should of seen what I just saw...

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Wow.... amazing, and glad that all the brothers are alive today...

[eckyphats 0]

little too fast around that turn eh?

[EXDC203 38]

Wow, you are concerned that the POV kept going? It seems there is a rescue type vehicle following the ladder, that stopped. If you have no first responder experience, and you can see that help is on the scene..........they did nothing wrong. Lets focus on the driver of that rig!!!

[Guest]

woah !!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Wow, you are concerned that the POV kept going? It seems there is a rescue type vehicle following the ladder, that stopped. If you have no first responder experience, and you can see that help is on the scene..........they did nothing wrong. Lets focus on the driver of that rig!!!

Point well taken. I've removed the comment I posted about the POV. However, I think it's obvious from the article that the Raleigh FD is doing exactly what you said; focusing on the operation of the truck.

Edited August 25, 2009 by efdcapt115

[Bnechis 3,961]

Point well taken. I've removed the comment I posted about the POV. However, I think it's obvious from the article that the Raleigh FD is doing exactly what you said; focusing on the operation of the truck.

Interesting video. What can be learned from this:

1) Know where you are going. Why was the turn so hard, maybe the driver did not realize he needed to make the turn until it was too late.

2) Speeding, Speeding, Speeding...............

3) I suspect all members had there seatbelts on. Otherwise there would be more to this story. Many FF's are getting the message, but way too many have not.

4) I find it interesting that the Austin Thread has everyone complaining about rules to slow down, and this thread is more concerned with what the POV was doing. One comment on the Austin Thread was what if it was your family trapped down the block in a fire those few seconds could make the difference. Well in this case those few extra seconds will turn into 10-30 minutes. THe truck will never get there, the rescue is going to the aid of the truck, I'm sure they dispatched other units to assist the truck and a couple of ambulances. Anyone at the original call is going to wait a lot longer for help (particularly if in Westchester, since you just lost the whole 1st alarm response.

How do you explain this to the family you were trying to help, to the families of the FF's if this had gone worst or the families of any one who could have been struck by this truck

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I find it interesting that the Austin Thread has everyone complaining about rules to slow down, and this thread is more concerned with what the POV was doing.

As usual Barry you've brought up some interesting points. However:

1.There were two posts on this thread commenting on the POV. I removed one because a member reminded me it was more important to focus on the apparatus featured here. This does not make the thread "more concerned" with the POV (2 out of 7 posts).

2. The Austin thread discussion as I remember it wasn't about speeding or "slowing down" as you put it. It was about having to literally STOP for every traffic signal. It supposedly is for the "protection against liability" for Austin firefighters, I think it is exactly the opposite. Time will tell. I don't recall any comments advocating speeding, and don't think you'll find anybody advocating what happened here.

You also said "One comment on the Austin Thread was what if it was your family trapped down the block in a fire those few seconds could make the difference."

Actually if it is my comment you are refering to (not sure) I stated to the effect; imagine you were responding a rig down an avenue in Manhattan, and could see 30 blocks up, fire blowing out the windows of an OMD, and you had to stop for every traffic light (because there is a light on every block for 30 blocks and Murphy's Law says every one of them will be red, disregarding getting a run of green). If you'd indulge me, I'd like to expand. You have clear intersections, clearly seen and communicated by a chauffer, and officer. It's 3 AM. You are hitting red lights; policy dictates you STOP at all of them. That means loss of foward momentum/velocity of the rig. How much time would you calculate that would cost a 30 ton tower ladder? If we guess 5 seconds, 3 to stop 2 to accelerate; that translates into 2 minutes and 30 seconds additional response time for 30 blocks. Not good IMHO.

3. This comment is in NO WAY a judgement on what happened in Raleigh. I will convey to you stories I was told from old timers of the days of tiller trucks in my dept (retirement disclaimer inserted here). Sometimes the Chauffer "had it out" for the tillerman, and used to make sharp turns right out of the barn to mess with the guy. Sometimes it was done in a "joking" fashion (sick stuff right?). I've heard a story of a tiller truck making too fast a turn and wiping out (thankfully only) half a dozen parked automobiles. I think the article here alludes to the point that the Chauffer in Raleigh might have made a last second decision to make the turn, not giving the tillerman time to react (they were responding to a reported structure fire that turned out to be a minor alarm).

4. Seth pointed out that in his opinion in Austin, the Chief might have been forced to accept the new "traffic signal policy" from City Attorneys; people who know very little to nothing about responding in fire apparatus, nor the difference 1 minute can make as to whether a victim lives or dies, but rather saw a couple/few incidents in Austin, looked at the bottom line $$ and instituted a (my words here) draconian policy. You can say what you want about whether you agree/disagree with the Austin policy; I did and stand by my comments in that thread, and also with bringing this video forward for firefighters here to view and think about. I do not find anything inconsistent with those postings.

5. Going back and counting, "most" posts in the Austin thread were NOT complaining about the new policy, rather supporting it in one form or fashion.

6. Further information about the accident:

http://www.raleigh-nc.org/portal/server.pt...0-16500954.html

Edited August 25, 2009 by efdcapt115

[EXDC203 38]

So what should we all get from this?? Lets ALL be just a little more carefull behind the wheel!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

That's not a bad idea!

[x635 4,066]

This comment is in NO WAY a judgement on what happened in Raleigh. I will convey to you stories I was told from old timers of the days of tiller trucks in my dept (retirement disclaimer inserted here). Sometimes the Chauffer "had it out" for the tillerman, and used to make sharp turns right out of the barn to mess with the guy. Sometimes it was done in a "joking" fashion (sick stuff right?). I've heard a story of a tiller truck making too fast a turn and wiping out (thankfully only) half a dozen parked automobiles. I think the article here alludes to the point that the Chauffer in Raleigh might have made a last second decision to make the turn, not giving the tillerman time to react (they were responding to a reported structure fire that turned out to be a minor alarm).

I agree with this. The tillerman is at the mercy of the driver. Having a few friends on the West coast that operate tillers, driving a tiller succesfully consists of teamwork and communication between the driver and tillerman (who obviously does not have control to brake the vehicle). Being a tillerman is an art, but no tillerman could make a turn like that at that speed. Think of an 18 wheeler trying to do the same thing.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The tillerman is at the mercy of the driver. Having a few friends on the West coast that operate tillers, driving a tiller succesfully consists of teamwork and communication between the driver and tillerman (who obviously does not have control to brake the vehicle). Being a tillerman is an art, but no tillerman could make a turn like that at that speed. Think of an 18 wheeler trying to do the same thing.

Seth, what are they using for communication? I seem to remember it used to be the tillerman or chauffer would press a "bell button" of some sort; one bell for ___, 2 bells for ____, 3 bells for HOLY____! (Edit: Maybe I'm just thinking of the old back step bell system)

It's gotta be headset on the West Coast, but what is the norm for East Coast city tiller trucks? Have we all finally gotten on the same page about maybe one thing all the way across the country? I could imagine a Chauffer pressing a button on his headset "LEFT TURN COMING UP." Tillerman "KAY."

And you know talking about tractor-trailers, what would be the harm in equipping a tiller truck with a jake brake (for the trailer wheels only, operated by the tillerman who sees serious harm coming?) I know they help straighten out tractor-trailers during a jacknife. Maybe it could be too confusing, having two sets of feet on the brakes? Just curious as I never had any tiller experience.

Any info you (or any tillerman out there) could provide would be enlightening.

~Thank you!

Edited August 27, 2009 by efdcapt115

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Hi guys, hope everyone had a nice Labor Day Weekend. I can't believe how fast this summer went; time sure is a flyin'.

Anyways, a very eloquent Tiller truck Chauffer sent this along to me in an e-mail, and after getting his permission I'm adding it to this thread. I found it interesting to finally know how they communicate and operate a tiller; so for all of you "tiller-less" guys out there like me, here's a little tidbit of insight into how things go, or maybe it's how they "went". The brother has been out since 9-11, so maybe they changed something, not sure. But here's what he sent along:

Note: the similarlity to the communication system on aerial ladders, and buckets:

"In L5 we had directional's in the tiller cab to let us know when the chauffeur was to make a turn (provided he used them - most did), and an intercom between the cab and tillerman. The cab intercom you had to engage the talk button to talk, the tiller intercom the tillerman could just converse and you would hear him. Sometimes it was funny hearing the "new" tillerman talking or singing outloud to himself and not realizing we could hear him in the front.

Concerning speed, he (the Raleigh Chauffer) was moving way too fast- I agree about "open intersections" but this guy did not have control of his vehicle, one hundred and fifty feet before the intersection "what if" a family van was passing through with the green light- the rig had a dead red light and could never have stopped in time.

Make up the time- get dressed fast and on the rig, how many times do we "stroll" to the rig for a response. Then when we get to a scene can we stretch hose without flaw, do we "really know" how to properly VES, do "all hands" know what is required (and proficient at...) before the dude with the white hat shows up? That's how you make up time, for starters."

The brother makes a lot of good points.

~Thanks to one of FDNY L-5's great Chauffers.