Austin (TX) new policy on responding

[Monty 35]

Surprised I haven't seen this posted here. Maybe beacuase its not an East Coast thing, or it's too progressive or something.

Anyway the gist of it is that the Fire Chief has instituted a new policy that requires drivers to maintain the speed limit AND stop at intersections. It doesn't happen too often, but we have seen numerous examples (Chicago, Phoenix, Houston, Detroit, St Louis, NYC, Westchester) where there have been some pretty bad intersection accidents. Why not change the culture and try to prevent these incidents?

Who can honestly say that shaving seconds off a call by stopping (as opposed to slowing down) has saved someone's life?

From the secret list:

Some Austin Firefighters are concerned about the new policy ordered by Fire Chief Rhoda Mae Kerr. Under the policy, Firefighters must drive the speed limit and come to a complete stop at intersections before proceeding during an emergency. They don't have to wait for the light to turn green-just make sure it is clear.

However not everyone agrees.

"When we respond to an emergency we work as a team," said Steven Truesdell, President of the Austin Firefighters. "We have multiple sets of eyes surveying the traffic and the driver and officer work together to make sure they are proceeding through traffic safely." State law in Texas (like just about everywhere else) allows Firefighters responding to an emergency to drive over the speed limit and to go through red lights and stop signs

So is the Chief looking out for her members?

Absolutely.

As she stated: "In today's world, there is so much going on in heavily-traveled streets. People are talking on their cell phones or texting or looking at their e-mails; we just want our Firefighters to have better control over hazardous situations"

So the order reduces Firefighter liability when driving apparatus.

So they don't hurt or kill someone who doesn't hear or see them coming.

So they don't potentially run into one of their own family as happened last year in Ohio when a Firefighter/Apparatus driver (who was doing nothing more than responding to help people with a vehicle fire)ran a controlled intersection without stopping, striking and killing 2 of her own relatives.

Literally a living nightmare for all affected. NO ONE wants to go thru that. EVER.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Surprised I haven't seen this posted here. Maybe beacuase its not an East Coast thing, or it's too progressive or something.

Anyway the gist of it is that the Fire Chief has instituted a new policy that requires drivers to maintain the speed limit AND stop at intersections. It doesn't happen too often, but we have seen numerous examples (Chicago, Phoenix, Houston, Detroit, St Louis, NYC, Westchester) where there have been some pretty bad intersection accidents. Why not change the culture and try to prevent these incidents?

Who can honestly say that shaving seconds off a call by stopping (as opposed to slowing down) has saved someone's life?

Sure that's a great policy she'll see. God forbid it's her husband and kids trapped in a burning home, or someone elses, but now the rigs have to be "politically correct" like everything else.

I'm also quite sure this Chief has much more knowledge than the Uniform Traffic Code of The State of Texas which states firetrucks are allowed to do what they are supposed to; get your @ss to the fire, maybe make a grab and a good stop.

You (and the Chief) think stopping and starting a 60,000+ lb. firetruck at every traffic light won't have an effect on response times? How may rigs have you driven brother? How many rigs had the Chief driven?

Yes, accidents happen. I think the number is over 40,000 people die every year in automobile accidents. The firetruck accidents quoted here are absolute tragedys, no doubt. But when taken in the context of tens of thousands of firetrucks (my best guesstimate) responding every day across the country; wouldn't you agree that's not a bad percentage?

I would put my faith in a good Chauffeur and Officer in the front seat, over any "PC" document being written by an obviously "PC" Chief ANYDAY PERIOD.

Edit: for spelling

Edited August 21, 2009 by efdcapt115

[mstrang1 213]

"I would put my faith in a good Chauffeur and Officer in the front seat, over any "PC" document being written by an obviously "PC" Chief ANYDAY PERIOD."

My idea of a good chauffer is one that stops at all negative intersections. I am not sure if the new rules in Austin say that you have to stop at all intersections, or just negative right of ways. I can tell you that I stop at all negative right of ways and slow at positive ones. I drive the speed limit. I would rather get there in one piece to make that grab instead of, at minimum, sitting in an intersection waiting for the cops to show up. This is not me being "PC", it is me being cautious. You wouldnt' just jump off of a ladder without sounding the roof, or popping a door without checking for heat. YOU CHECK. You check to make sure everyone is stopped. ALWAYS. I drive the same way going to a working fire or auto alarm.

[Guest]

Wait till the response times go up!

[FF402 133]

How many rigs had the Chief driven?

Fire Chief Rhoda Mae Kerr

Rhoda Mae Kerr is a fourth-generation firefighter with 26 years experience in the field. She is currently the Fire Chief of the Austin Fire Department and most recently served in that same position with the city of Little Rock, Arkansas; she was also Assistant Fire Chief at Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Chief Kerr brings a Master’s in Public Administration, Bachelor of Arts degree in Physical Education and Health, an Associate’s degree in Fire Science Technology, and a certification from the Harvard University program for Senior Executives in State and Local Government. Prior to entering the fire service, Chief Kerr was a coach and physical education teacher at the high school level for 12 years.

Chief Kerr heads the Human Relations Committee of the International Association of Fire Chiefs, is Southwest Director of the National Society of Executive Fire Officers, and is actively involved in Rotary, along with other community and professional organizations, including the Central Texas chapter of the American Red Cross and the Austin Area Urban League. She is also a member of the Texas Fire Chief’s Association and the Capital Area Fire Chief’s Association. She is an avid sports enthusiast, enjoying cycling, golf, tennis, and skiing.

ALSO

Kerr, a product of a firefighting family, has served as Little Rock Fire Chief since January 2004. Before that, she rose through the ranks of Fort Lauderdale, Fla., Fire Rescue, serving in every operational rank from firefighter/emergency medical technician to battalion and division chief.

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/fire/staff.htm

"Civilians Guide To AFD" (Interesting read)

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/fire/downloads/civilian051103.pdf

OR

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/fire/downloads/civilian051103.doc

I'm sure Seth can shed more light on this for us...

Edited August 21, 2009 by FF402

[Guest]

CITY OF AUSTIN

Firefighters' union upset over new policy

Chief says driving the speed limit, stopping at intersections will make everyone safer.

By Marty Toohey and Tony Plohetski

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Thursday, August 20, 2009

Austin firetrucks now must drive the speed limit and come to a complete stop at intersections while responding to calls, according to a new city policy that has upset the firefighters' union.

DeCrane said the change is part of a department-wide effort to turn informal practices into formal policy.

LINK TO WHOLE ARTICLE

Edited August 21, 2009 by EM2FD

[efdcapt115 1,511]

"I would put my faith in a good Chauffeur and Officer in the front seat, over any "PC" document being written by an obviously "PC" Chief ANYDAY PERIOD."

My idea of a good chauffer is one that stops at all negative intersections. I am not sure if the new rules in Austin say that you have to stop at all intersections, or just negative right of ways. I can tell you that I stop at all negative right of ways and slow at positive ones. I drive the speed limit. I would rather get there in one piece to make that grab instead of, at minimum, sitting in an intersection waiting for the cops to show up. This is not me being "PC", it is me being cautious. You wouldnt' just jump off of a ladder without sounding the roof, or popping a door without checking for heat. YOU CHECK. You check to make sure everyone is stopped. ALWAYS. I drive the same way going to a working fire or auto alarm.

You sound like the kind of Chauffer that gets your company to alarms safely and God Bless you for that; it's a huge responsibility. Being cautious is The Name Of The Game is it not? Now you take your rig (honestly I have no idea where you work bro) and roll down or up an Avenue in Manhattan right? And you can see thirty blocks ahead of you fire blowing out of three windows in an OMD at 0300 hrs. And you get stopped at EVERY SINGLE LIGHT leading up to the fire. Apparently there are no "roll through clauses" regarding clear interesections (that I read in the policy highlights sighted) in Austin. IMHO this is ridiculous.

I'm very happy that this Chief has a resume longer than any brother could ever have 5 year bands on his/her Class A.

But where is the "common sense" balance, and if it is "balanced" why is the union gripping loudly about it?

Now don't everybody start groaning when I say I drove a '55 LaFrance pumper, standard shift gas motor, a couple of Seagrave Aerials, a Brockway Rescue, and numerous other Mack pumpers in my career. I got those rigs to the scene safely, appropriately and then went to work in an undermanned fire attack. And I drove them by myself; no officer to help me out, just like many of the IAFF members in Westchester are STILL forced to do.

I never crashed a firetruck, and the vast majority of firemen in here can say the same exact thing I just said; just change the rigs and insert those you drove/drive. I guess If it ain't broke don't fix it works here.

It might have something to do with liability; they institute the policy and start blaming all the Chauffers for ANYTHING. No liabilty to the City of course, wave that policy.

~Stay safe.

[gamewell45 258]

I think it has to do with risk. Everything you do in life involves risk; you assess what you stand to gain as opposed to what you could lose. In the fire service maximize your risk and you may get to the fire 90 seconds earlier; minimize your risk and you might get there 90 seconds later. Whether or not its your fault, you get into an accident, your truck is out of service and you & your fellow firefighters become useless as far as responding to the scene.

I think most posters in here would agree that you should always err on the side of safety and caution. In particular, stopping at red lights, stop signs and the like is common sense; following that mindset should help to keep everyone safe and ensure that we all go back to the station alive when the alarm is concluded.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Not for nothing but how many times have we seen something on YouTube posted of a firetruck blowing through a red light / stop sign protected intersection?? Too many right? Maybe this is in response to that. If there is an intersection with a stop sign or a light showing red, you stop, check the intersection that everyone is stopping while you begin to slowly make the intersection and then proceed through.

As for stopping with green light, that is a little too much but then again you must proceed through the intersection with caution at a reasonably lower speed so you can stop in an instant, why??? How many POV drivers do we see make "right turns on red" or roll through turns???? Too many and this is we as emergency apparatus drivers get caught in an accident or close call.

Sorry but (for example) a 36,000 lb pumper with 500 gallons of water (at an additional weight of 8.33* lbs per gallon sloshing around) and plus more weight added when loaded down with equipment, doesn't stop on a dime.

But I know I'm preaching to the choir of MPO's and chauffeurs.................

[x635 4,066]

a Brockway Rescue

On an unrelated note, I loved that rescue, I was working for 60 when it was donated there. What ever happened to it? I always liked the sticker on the dashboard too, lol.

It might have something to do with liability; they institute the policy and start blaming all the Chauffers for ANYTHING. No liabilty to the City of course, wave that policy.

There have been a few accidents in the past year in which brought attention to the issue from the City's risk managment deparment. All this is is a policy that, I believe, the lawyers forced the Chief to institute.

Also, the apparatus operator has tremendous responsibility. And people here in Austin are the WORST drivers of any city I've ever driven in. Due to station placement, higher speed limits in more open areas, and staffing, their response times and mitigation times are very impressive to start with.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

On an unrelated note, I loved that rescue, I was working for 60 when it was donated there. What ever happened to it? I always liked the sticker on the dashboard too, lol.

I think retired brother Magro was responsible for the sticker, thanks for bringing back that memory! I know they used the Brockway up at Fire Control as a support vehicle for a number of years; after that I don't know.

There have been a few accidents in the past year in which brought attention to the issue from the City's risk managment deparment. All this is is a policy that, I believe, the lawyers forced the Chief to institute.

Thank you Seth, that explains A LOT.

Also, the apparatus operator has tremendous responsibility. And people here in Austin are the WORST drivers of any city I've ever driven in.

I ride a Harley now in my retirement in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. The same rules apply on the bike as do when behind the wheel of those rigs; I gotta check EVERY intersection, make sure cars are stopped/slowing to a stop, EVEN if I have the right of way. Part of the system I've developed since I drove tractor-trailers on Long Island many years ago, and still use today on the Harley, is to actually keep an eye on what/where the other driver IS LOOKING AT. This can be very useful information:)

There might be bad drivers in Austin; you should see some of the hideous driving that goes on here at the beach. When you're heading up The Kings Highway, you can almost predict where the fender-benders are going to be; as they tend to re-occur over and over at the same intersections.

Just like Chauffering a rig, when you're on a bike you CANNOT make a mistake; or the results can be tragic.

The old time Anchor Motor Freight truck driver that tought/helped me get my Class A drivers licence when I was 18 gave me this advice; If you going to crash and only have a choice between crashing your tractor-trailer into a vehicle, or running it off the road into a rock wall and certain death; choose the latter. You'll be better off than trying to live the nightmare of vehicular homicide charges you'll probably be charged with, your life is ruined anyway, so choose the rocks.

Disclaimer: I am only conveying an old conversation with an old, experienced truck driver at "Putnam Professional School of Driving" from 1980. I am NOT advocating fire apparatus operators "aim for rock walls." Sometimes with the brothers you have to make sure your point is clear right?

~Regards

[x635 4,066]

I'd like to make an update. In the past, it's been the practice to discipline both the apparatus operator and officer when the apparatus is involved in a collision. It is protocol to work as a team to get the apparatus to the scene safely.

The Fire Chief has ameneded her protocol to basically say that the officer has the opppurtunity to use his/her discretion to authorize the apparatus operator to go above the speed limit, etc in any instance where it is deemed neccesary.

[x635 4,066]

Fire chief alters controversial driving policy

By Tony Plohetski | Friday, August 28, 2009, 02:44 PM

Austin firefighters would again be able to drive up to 10 miles over the speed limit when responding to emergencies, under a revised driving policy obtained this afternoon. But the policy would still require them to completely stop at intersections.

FULL ARTICLE: http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/sha...ntroversia.html

OTHER EMTBRAVO DISCUSSION ON ORIGINAL POLICY:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=33262

[Mark Z 18]

Big surprise, the chief decided that the policy made no sense! I almost feel sorry for the firefighters in Austin, but they work as firefighters and live in or near Austin so I can't feel too sorry for em!

Edited August 28, 2009 by Mark Z

[x635 4,066]

Big surprise, the chief decided that the policy made no sense! I almost feel sorry for the firefighters in Austin, but they work as firefighters and live in or near Austin so I can't feel too sorry for em!

Why? Because the Chief basically went back to the City with the firefighters concerns, and hashed this out?

[Mark Z 18]

Why? Because the Chief basically went back to the City with the firefighters concerns, and hashed this out?

Naaah, I don't feel sorry for them because they are firefighters and live in TX!!!

Seth,

I didn't think that policy as I read it made alot of sense and I honestly believed that it would be changed before long. I have no desire to be the chief of AFD and take my hat off to anyone who can run a dept the size of AFD, but the policy was way too restrictive and I bet cost the chief some credibility with the rank and file in the dept and I don't think it served the citizens of Austin well either.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Mark Z

[x635 4,066]

Naaah, I don't feel sorry for them because they are firefighters and live in TX!!!

Seth,

I didn't think that policy as I read it made alot of sense and I honestly believed that it would be changed before long. I have no desire to be the chief of AFD and take my hat off to anyone who can run a dept the size of AFD, but the policy was way too restrictive and I bet cost the chief some credibility with the rank and file in the dept and I don't think it served the citizens of Austin well either.

How so?

[ldrco195 17]

as a PA FF / EMT just as a note into this discussion. In PA, fire apparatus are allowed to run red lights but ems units are not. EMS units are to stop at stop signs and red lights prior to proceeding.

In my town, Monroeville, PA. We utilize the 3M Opticom Light Control System. It works well but if its windy, exceptionally sunny, snowing, foggy, etc.. Forget it... back to old school driving.

Now if you follow the EVOC classes, which you will be held to in court, you best follow those recommeded actions.

I found that once i had children, i slowed down when driving, and become more cognesent of my actions.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I have to give the Chief props for being responsive to the memberships' concerns. We've all known Chiefs who take things and round-file them; "I'm the Chief" is their standard answer. A responsive Chief who understands that respect within the ranks is shared from top to bottom, is going in the right direction (IMHO).

I don't neccesarily think that a "speed tweak" in the policy is the way to go, but I honestly don't know every detail of said policy.

When I was blogging about a "balance" in a response policy, what I was thinking is that the people who DO the job should have as much input as possible to try and strike that balance before a policy is either written or revised.

A very good post in here by a Chauffer explained the difference as he saw it; clear and non-clear intersections and how carefully he delivers his company to the scene.

The problem as I still see it comes down to technical terminology. When a policy states " emergency apparatus will STOP at every intersection when responding to an emergency", can't you guys see how that could become something that could be used against you as the Chauffer? Surely and rightfully if you are blowing through intersections with no regard, speeding and basically not belonging behind the wheel in the first place.

But what about the Chauffer who is conciensious, does his/her best to comply with the demands of the job requirement, and comply with a written policy, who comes to a "nearly-full" type stop, when the rig holds a bit of momentum, and then some yokel comes speeding up from the side to get his dumb @ss stuck under your wheels?

"Well, did you stop?" the Chauffer is asked by an investigating Chief. "Yes sir, I slowed the rig to a crawl, things were clear, I began to move forward and this Mazda Miata comes out of nowhere and crashes into the front side bumper." Guess what? If the policy says "stop" and you say "crawl", you just admitted to violating the stop policy, and are probably headed for more heat; either with the dept. or with lawyers for the plaintiff.

That's why a word like stop can be your best friend or your worst enemy. A policy IMHO should be written to provide maximum protection for the firefighter who is trying their best to perform their job function safely and effectively.

In this case saying something in the policy like "responding apparatus should slow to a near-stop, check the intersection, and if perceived to be safe by the officer, may continue on. The apparatus operator will stop completely at said intersection if it not apparent at the time that it is both clear and safe to proceed." Now this policy (once again IMHO) is designed to protect the conciencious operator, hold irresponsible ones to account, and not have too serious an effect on the objective of the mission.

Edit: for spelling

Edited August 29, 2009 by efdcapt115