Foam Trailer to WPFD

[billfitz 109]

I would like to applaud the recent vote by the Westchester County Board of legislatures to reassign the foam trailer to the White Plains Fire Dept - this shows a commitment on behalf of them to put politics aside and do what is best for the county - putting a resource where it can be deployed most effectively - what a novel idea! - could this be a sign of things to come?

[stixx 7]

New Rochelle should get that foam Trailer what does White Plains Fire Dept need it for there more car accidents on I95 and it be car fire.

[TL2L31 8]

I would sat that they are more centrally located. They are close to all the major arteries. They can be to I95 or the TZ bridge in minutes (with no traffic of coarse).Most of the parkways are just minutes away.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The opinions listed here in no way represent the New Rochelle Fire Dept.

Thanks Chief F. for recognizing when the county does something that is good for everyone

[stixx 7]

The opinions listed here in no way represent the New Rochelle Fire Dept.

Thanks Chief F. for recognizing when the county does something that is good for everyone

the county should get two foam Trailer's one for White Plains Fire Dept and the other for New Rochelle Fire Dept.

[LineCapt 134]

I don't understand why there is only one foam trailer for the whole county? I know Yonkers has a truck filled with an assortment of foam, that can be applied using any engine, along with some other special foam equipment. New Rochelle, I believe, was looking at a foam unit a few years back, if I remember correctly.

And why was this shift made- I believe it was in Fairview? Where are they going to station it in White Plains? I know I-287 runs through White Plains, but Hawthorne and Ossining have both made use of the foam trailer, too.

So, again, why aren't there more?

Thanks to Chief Fitz for the information

[huzzie59 75]

And do we think the HAZMAT Unit should be the next thing assigned to a specific department?

[Remember585 815]

My guess would be that we only have one trailer so far due to the cost of it, and the amount of incidents it has been to. We all know that if cost wasn't a factor, we probably would see one of these in every firehouse. But given the few responses it's made in it's existence here, it's probably a hard sell to the county to get any more of them.

[billfitz 109]

And do we think the HAZMAT Unit should be the next thing assigned to a specific department?

Very -interesting this is bizarro world things are starting to make to much sense! - CE Spano mentioned recently at a press conference on sharing County services that perhaps the County should look into Yonkers providing HM for the Southern part of the County - what next White Plains covering the North?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

It is strange that Westchester only has one, in CT Region 5 we have 3 foam trailers, Waterbury, Torrington and Danbury. And the areas surrounding those cities are more rural than Westchester.

Edited August 18, 2009 by SageVigiles

[61MACKBR1 222]

Chief Fitz - You have hit the "Nail Perfectly On The Head" !! - Great Idea. Regionalization of Special Operations within the County is the way to go. With Yonkers having the "Premier" Special Operations Department in the state (with the possible exception of FDNY), it would make sense for Yonkers to managed the "Westchester County Southern District" as it relates to "Special Operations. Chief Fitz, would you think that having some of Yonkers SOD equipment "spread out" around the Southern Tier of the county would make sense (like maybe having a Southern Region Foam Rig say housed at the Fulton Avenue Fire House in Mount Vernon, near "Oil City" ???)

[efdcapt115 1,511]

It is strange that Westchester only has one, in CT Region 5 we have 3 foam trailers, Waterbury, Torrington and Danbury. And the areas surrounding those cities are more rural than Westchester.

It really isn't that strange when you consider the dysfunction in Westchester County comes from having an extra layer of gov't. Now people can say "it's the towns' or "it's the County" that's the culprit; I have no opinion other than to say we have one additional layer of gov't here in NY. This is a contributing factor for how and why things can move slowly, or not at all in Westchester.

Now, take a look at WPFD. There was just a thread in here about "congrats to WPFD for reaching ISO 1 status". Things like the foam trailer, and the ISO 1 rating are obviously a reflection on todays' Commanders in the fire service.

These folks know their stuff; and if gov't isn't getting it's act in order, it does not prevent a smart Commander of an emergency service from fulfilling his/her educationial aspirations within the field of knowledge in their emergency service.

Once again, I gotta take my hat off; this time to the leadership of WPFD; that includes Chiefs, Officers, Firefighters, and Union Officials. Without all of their cooperation, they wouldn't be moving White Plains straight ahead at Warp Factor One Sulu.

~Stay safe brothers

Edit: I remember when I got on the job, WPFD was looked at as kind of a messed up place; a lot of infighting, they lost a brother in a job LODD, I think cutbacks of companies not running when manpower was down due to injury, some kind of change in the leadership structure wihin the City, etc. You've come a long way. Plus you have all those high-rises now, like NR & Y. It's real.

Edited August 18, 2009 by efdcapt115

[helicopper 1,050]

How many foam trailers does Westchester County NEED?

How many FD's have foam capabilities that can be used until this resource arrives?

How many responses have there been (I saw Ossining and Hawthorne); has New Rochelle ever requested it for a car fire on I-95?

Have there been any requests when it was not available because it was already on an assignment?

It is strange that Westchester only has one, in CT Region 5 we have 3 foam trailers, Waterbury, Torrington and Danbury. And the areas surrounding those cities are more rural than Westchester.

How far is Danbury from Torrington? About 50 miles or so? There's nowhere in Westchester that is that far from White Plains. Is it the industrial/manufacturing in those cities that resulted in three trailers? Was there any cost to capability study or cost/benefit analysis that said three trailers are needed? Do they get any regular use or was it just three fire departments decided to get foam trailers?

Just because somewhere else has three doesn't mean Westchester needs three also. Duplication of resources is a rampant problem and this is a resource that gets little (happily) use.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Good point, I don't know how often they get used, but the state Dept of Emergency Management and Homeland Security just basically gave them out to the three big departments of Region 5 HAZMAT. I'm not sure if I was commenting on how Westchester should have more or CT should have less, time will tell I suppose.

[helicopper 1,050]

It really isn't that strange when you consider the dysfunction in Westchester County comes from having an extra layer of gov't. Now people can say "it's the towns' or "it's the County" that's the culprit; I have no opinion other than to say we have one additional layer of gov't here in NY. This is a contributing factor for how and why things can move slowly, or not at all in Westchester.

Now, take a look at WPFD. There was just a thread in here about "congrats to WPFD for reaching ISO 1 status". Things like the foam trailer, and the ISO 1 rating are obviously a reflection on todays' Commanders in the fire service.

These folks know their stuff; and if gov't isn't getting it's act in order, it does not prevent a smart Commander of an emergency service from fulfilling his/her educationial aspirations within the field of knowledge in their emergency service.

Once again, I gotta take my hat off; this time to the leadership of WPFD; that includes Chiefs, Officers, Firefighters, and Union Officials. Without all of their cooperation, they wouldn't be moving White Plains straight ahead at Warp Factor One Sulu.

~Stay safe brothers

Edit: I remember when I got on the job, WPFD was looked at as kind of a messed up place; a lot of infighting, they lost a brother in a job LODD, I think cutbacks of companies not running when manpower was down due to injury, some kind of change in the leadership structure wihin the City, etc. You've come a long way. Plus you have all those high-rises now, like NR & Y. It's real.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the County procure the foam trailer and deploy it first to Fairview and now to White Plains? Kudos to White Plains for accepting it and for reaching ISO 1 rating but the foam trailer was the big bad County's creation.

If you want to look at dysfunction in government let's look at the multiple layers below the County - how many political subdivisions are there in Westchester County? Over 150 would be my guess - but there's only one County and they're to blame for the dysfunction? I'll be the first to admit that the County screws a lot of things up but the duplicative layers of villages, school, fire, water, sewer districts throughout Westchester is more of an issue than the County itself.

If we eliminated all the villages and fire districts in favor of town-wide service areas (Town FD, Town Government, etc.) we could eliminate at least 20 governments and 30 or so fire districts. Do the same with schools and we'll actually start seeing less government. Didn't your own FD do just that and service the town and two villages?

Sorry for the rant, I just don't think the County is the culprit you make it out to be. Sure, it can do a lot better but the alternatives are downright scary!

[billfitz 109]

Chief Fitz - You have hit the "Nail Perfectly On The Head" !! - Great Idea. Regionalization of Special Operations within the County is the way to go. With Yonkers having the "Premier" Special Operations Department in the state (with the possible exception of FDNY), it would make sense for Yonkers to managed the "Westchester County Southern District" as it relates to "Special Operations. Chief Fitz, would you think that having some of Yonkers SOD equipment "spread out" around the Southern Tier of the county would make sense (like maybe having a Southern Region Foam Rig say housed at the Fulton Avenue Fire House in Mount Vernon, near "Oil City" ???)

Our Foam unit is currently assigned to Station 13 (Could not be any closer to MVFD or Southern part of County) it carries 200 - 5 gallon pails w/ handline & master stream eductors & nozzles - it repsonds w/ E-313 & L-73 for Master stream foam operations (8 man crew) it is available on M/A - it did respond to New Rochelle for standby for the overturned gsoline tanker a few years back.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the County procure the foam trailer and deploy it first to Fairview and now to White Plains? Kudos to White Plains for accepting it and for reaching ISO 1 rating but the foam trailer was the big bad County's creation.

If you want to look at dysfunction in government let's look at the multiple layers below the County - how many political subdivisions are there in Westchester County? Over 150 would be my guess - but there's only one County and they're to blame for the dysfunction? I'll be the first to admit that the County screws a lot of things up but the duplicative layers of villages, school, fire, water, sewer districts throughout Westchester is more of an issue than the County itself.

If we eliminated all the villages and fire districts in favor of town-wide service areas (Town FD, Town Government, etc.) we could eliminate at least 20 governments and 30 or so fire districts. Do the same with schools and we'll actually start seeing less government. Didn't your own FD do just that and service the town and two villages?

Sorry for the rant, I just don't think the County is the culprit you make it out to be. Sure, it can do a lot better but the alternatives are downright scary!

Chris, I wrote this;

"Now people can say "it's the towns' or "it's the County" that's the culprit; I have no opinion other than to say we have one additional layer of gov't here in NY. This is a contributing factor for how and why things can move slowly, or not at all in Westchester."

I'm not placing the blame for anything with the County brother. The Chief started off the thread complimenting the County. I have no arguement with that, nor with anything you've said about consolidation of lower levels of gov't.

When I said we have one additional layer of gov't, comparing it to Ct. in this case, we could say the additional layer is the multiple school districts, the fire districts, or the (how many is it) 56 Police Depts. in the County, etc.

I don't necessarily think the County is "the big bad gov't".

~Thanks

Edit: I really didn't want to take the thread off topic, but Chris you're a good man, I think you just took this comment wrong that's all.

Edited August 18, 2009 by efdcapt115

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris, I wrote this;

"Now people can say "it's the towns' or "it's the County" that's the culprit; I have no opinion other than to say we have one additional layer of gov't here in NY. This is a contributing factor for how and why things can move slowly, or not at all in Westchester."

I'm not placing the blame for anything with the County brother. The Chief started off the thread complimenting the County. I have no arguement with that, nor with anything you've said about consolidation of lower levels of gov't.

When I said we have one additional layer of gov't, comparing it to Ct. in this case, we could say the additional layer is the multiple school districts, the fire districts, or the (how many is it) 56 Police Depts. in the County, etc.

I don't necessarily think the County is "the big bad gov't".

~Thanks

Edit: I really didn't want to take the thread off topic, but Chris you're a good man, I think you just took this comment wrong that's all.

You're right, I probably did take it the wrong way because there is an anti-County lobby advocating the elimination of county government and I just think that's absurd when you do the math. Last I checked it was 43 PD's, 59 FDs (not counting independent EMS), and more than 40 school districts.

You don't think that Westchester is the "big bad govt" but I'm sure someone else reading this thread does!

[x635 4,066]

There's also the simplest solution. Engines equipped to pump foam, and foam banks.

I also think that there should be at least ONE backup foam trailer, in case the first one malfunctions or needs backup.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Now what exactly does this foam trailer carry? Does it have a monitor on it or is it a trailer that just carries a crapload of foam?

[WCDES-FTA 6]

Now what exactly does this foam trailer carry? Does it have a monitor on it or is it a trailer that just carries a crapload of foam?

Utility-70

500 gallons 3%-6% AR-AFFF

1 Akron "Hydro-Chem" monitor-mounted to trailer-detachable (Preset to 3% @ 500 GPM)

1 ground base for above monitor

2-1.75" 200' preconnects (set up work independently of each other-seperate eductors rated @ 1%-6%)

Assorted fitting-various threads (NST, NYC, FDNY)

4-1.5" foam nozzles-assorted

1-spare "Hydro-Chem" nozzle

On-board 1.8kw trailer mounted gererator

Gas-driven transfer pump-mounted to trailer

electric transfer pump

Additional 1.75''and 2.5"hose

The preconnects and moitor work off seperate intakes, each discharge has a seperate pressure guage as well as a foam tank level guage.

[antiquefirelt 994]

There's also the simplest solution. Engines equipped to pump foam, and foam banks.

The problem with this is similar to the issue of having two or more trailers. The number of incidents B foam is actually needed for rarely calls for most engines to have systems. This coupled with the fact that structural engine borne B Foam systems have inherently small foam tanks which makes starting an op before the arrival of other foam near futile. In comparison to water or A foam, B-Foam is more complex to use, costs more and expires fairly rapidly.

I know our county which is far smaller and less populated has at least 10 or 12 B-Foam capable engines, but cannot put them all in one place as fast as a trailer could be deployed with more foam. Each carries a limited amount of foam which may or may not be compatible with other FD's resources. As we protect a large industrial plant that uses alcohol we carry all AR-AFFF, but most do not use AR foam, yet.

The other issue is that too often the foam expires in the tank as few of us train enough to cycle the foam out. Add in that without the newer vacuum units refill foam tanks on top of trucks becomes an accident waiting to happen and you have a poor system destined to fail at multiple points.

Now the only thing that throws a "monkey wrench" into this is the increased use of Ethanol in fuels. In 23 years I have never had to flow foam on a car fire or even tractor trailer for that matter, but we remain highway free. Could this change with more persistent burning fuel? The future may dictate we use foam on standard vehicle fires. But then again A foam (systems are far cheaper and get used more often) works well on some fires, B-Foam tends to be better on standing fuel not 3-D fires.

Since we're on the topic of foam, if anyone has a chance to go to the University of Reno's Elko NV, flammable liquid/gases program it's well worth it. This was a 4 day program fully funded by DHS through WMD monies. All expenses paid to and from Elko, hotels, meal money and excellent training at the Carlin NV training facility. About 50/50 classroom to hands on program about controlling fuel fires (LPG, natural gas, tank farms, spilled fuels, etc.

Edited August 18, 2009 by antiquefirelt

[SteveOFD 176]

Now what exactly does this foam trailer carry? Does it have a monitor on it or is it a trailer that just carries a crapload of foam?

Here's a link to picture of it from LFD171's website.

[Bnechis 3,961]

My guess would be that we only have one trailer so far due to the cost of it, and the amount of incidents it has been to. We all know that if cost wasn't a factor, we probably would see one of these in every firehouse. But given the few responses it's made in it's existence here, it's probably a hard sell to the county to get any more of them.

I believe its not cost but priorities. How many high end tow vehicles does the county have? How many drivers do they have and can they or the trailers we have all be deployed in a timely fasion?

[Bnechis 3,961]

How many foam trailers does Westchester County NEED?

Good question, but I think 1 is clearly not enough. Below I added a simple write up I did after a 2 day course on ethanol fuel fires. Which shows you may need up to 230 gallons of foam for a car fire with a 15 gallon tank of E85. ISO requires engines carry 10-25 gallons and foam cells on most engines are 25-40 gallons. Based on that you might need 6 to 23 engine companies to extingush this fire (unless you let it burn out) or have a great foam SYSTEM.

How many FD's have foam capabilities that can be used until this resource arrives?

Very few have more than a few minutes worth of capabilities, particularly if ethanol is involved.

One problem is we are not considering class B fires from a SYSTEM approach, everyone gets a few components, but its not a system. FDNY a number of years ago set up a neat SYSTEM. Each engine carried a few 5 gal buckets (FDNY guys please give the proper #). The satilite units carried extra foam, they also had a 2,500-3000 gallon foam tanker and a 500 galon foam tank in a dozen or so fire stations around the city (they used 480 gallon home heating fuel tanks) they where gravity or nitrogen pressurized to empty them into any standard engines 500 gallon tank. An engine could be dispatched to a foam tank as a shuttle, told to dump there water tank and fill with foam. I was told it took about 10 minutes.

FDNY a few years ago was able to add about a dozen dedicated foam pumpers and scrapped the shuttles. Any FDNY who can add, update or correct this, please do. Now NYC has more hazards and is larger, but I think it shows, that we have way less than we should.

How many responses have there been (I saw Ossining and Hawthorne); has New Rochelle ever requested it for a car fire on I-95?

Ossinings & Hawthorne's were for overturned tankers on fire. NRFD had this trailer respond from fairview for an overturned and leaking gasoline tanker on main street. If it had caught fire their arrival time would have been too late. BTW our spill travelled to long island sound (we had to deploy a boat and booms) and ended up going into 30+ homes via the sanitary sewers, also Price club Costco had to be evacuated. THere have been a number of cases around the US, where this has happened and found an ignition source, then they had dozzens of structure fires.

Have there been any requests when it was not available because it was already on an assignment?

The bigger problem is response time. trailers are slow, hard to safely respond (particularly by inexperienced drivers) and 500 gallons is just getting started.

Just because somewhere else has three doesn't mean Westchester needs three also. Duplication of resources is a rampant problem and this is a resource that gets little (happily) use.

We have such overkill in most things, but not foam or foam SYSTEMS and the people trained to deal with it.

ETHANOL

Ethanol is mixed with gasoline. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, while E10 is 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline. E10 is commonly found in cars. Ethanol is now the #1 rail transported product, with 350,000 annual railcars, usually rail cars carry pure ethanol. MC306 Tanker trucks generally care either E85 or E10 with approximately 8,400 tanker trips annually. Which is about 10% of the total tanker trips.

Ethanol is a polar solvent which means it mixes with water. Gasoline is a non-polar solvent, when gasoline and ethanol are mixed they create a unique series of problems for the fire service.

If it is burning the only effective extinguishing agent is Alcohol Resistant AFFF (AR-AFFF) which is the only foam that works. Never MIX Different brands of AR AFFF, they will eat one another. Additionally, foam if not gently applied will sink in ethanol and it will not come back to the surface, so it must be banked off a wall or dropped onto the street in front of it and eased into it. The other concern is how much foam is needed, which is dramatically more than with other flammables. The 1% / 3% (Hydrocarbons / Polar Solvents) AR-AFFF that we have is considered the most appropriate for Ethanol and should be set at 3%.

15 gallons from a car tank that has spilled on the ground and ignited will require approximately 10-16 gpm of foam concentrate for a minimum of 15 minutes, which is 150 to 230 gallons of concentrate or 30 to 46 foam buckets. If an M306 gasoline tanker were to spill its entire load the requirements would be approximately 80,000 – 128,000 gallons of concentrate or 16,000 to 25,600 foam buckets. I do not believe that much concentrate exists in the entire region. Airport Crash Trucks are not an option, they do not carry Alcohol Resistant Foam. The Federal Response Teams (EPA & USCG) have yet to formulate a plan. If the fire occurs in a loading dock the flow rate needs to be doubled. If the spill is contained in a diked area, the application time doubles, but the amount of foam needed maybe less based on total square footage.

Best bet is protect exposures with master streams and try to prevent it from getting into storm drains.

[msm232 69]

I have a good question?

How many departments in the county have actually trained with the trailer?

I mean flowed foam soultion?

As far as getting a second trailer, the first one was donated by ConEd a few years ago, maybe its time for a second donation. Its obvious, everyone knows it exists, but many departments have not had hands on training with the system.

A second trailer could eliminate some these issues and it could be stored at the training center with the foam bank.

Stay Safe

[Bnechis 3,961]

It has been a week since the last post, I guess once it was broght out that the majority of depts in Westchester do not have the ability to handle something (E-85 fuel fire or spill) we have solved any or all of the issues surrounding foam. This is not just an issue for the depts with highways. This stuff is traveling over local streets also.

The amount of foam on 1 trailer (even if it can get to an incident fast enough) will not be enough.

[FirNaTine 370]

Why not give it to the only City who had a Foam Truck, like FDMV. Don't they still have Oil City to protect. If anybody needs it, they do. I think they've got alot more at stake having a greater hazard area then these other municipalities. Also, like someonelse once pointed out, Charleston, SC had a Class 1 ISO Rating. That means diddily. Enough already with this paper b/s. It means nothing!

Edited August 26, 2009 by FirNaTine

[Remember585 815]

It has been a week since the last post, I guess once it was broght out that the majority of depts in Westchester do not have the ability to handle something (E-85 fuel fire or spill) we have solved any or all of the issues surrounding foam. This is not just an issue for the depts with highways. This stuff is traveling over local streets also.

The amount of foam on 1 trailer (even if it can get to an incident fast enough) will not be enough.

We recently became "blessed" with Ethanol at one of the gas stations in our response area. Our primary foam is carried on Engine 118, which has a 100 gallon foam tank carrying 1% / 3% National Foam AR-AFFF. (I think) Our other two Engines carry 2-3 buckets of the same foam, and we are currently looking at other ways to carry foam, either on our Rescue or the Truck. It's a matter of space really. We keep a stash of extra foam in the stations, but moving it from there to an incident is a whole 'nother issue...

We also cover the Metro-North Croton Harmon Yards, where they have a 200,000 gallon above ground diesel tank. Needless to say, a significant risk is on our hands and our foam supply, and that available to us, may not be sufficent. Do I think as a county we could use more - yes. Do I see it happening given the current times - nope.

Ironically, we had a foam drill on Monday night with Engine 119 & Tanker 10, where we showed newer members how to set up the eductor, the differences between a foam nozzle and a fog nozzle, the differences in foam % and the three methods of application - roll on, bank down and rain down. If you don't have the foam to use, a pint of soap (we used Dawn) mixed with five gallons of water works OK.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Remember585