Westchester's Numbering System-Is It Time For A Revamp?

[x635 4,066]

I know this was discussed a long time ago one here, but it's been in effect quite a while now and I still wonder about it. I know this decision was made during the Pat Kelly days, and also had something to do with the CAD system. This discussion is not about what a quint is or does, or staffing, but rather the designation.

What is the rationale for "Quint" not being a valid designation in Westchester? If a Quint is a Quint then why not call it a quint?

What brought this to be fresh in my mind is the use of Quints down here. A Quint is called a Quint, but is almost always housed with an engine and runs usually as a ladder company. M/A requests often bring a Quint, because of the versatility on scene. A lot of it has to do with water supply and elevated master streams, but I digress...

What would be a reason NOT to call a Quint a Quint? We call Tower Ladders Tower Ladders, Engine Engines, Rescues Rescues, etc etc.

Edited August 7, 2009 by x635
Topic titled changed to invite broader discussion

[Remember585 815]

We have Engines called "Rescues" & Mini-Attacks called "Engines" in Westchester. Nothing ever makes sense.

As far as calling a Quint a Quint, it probably makes no difference for the reason you already mentioned - they are Trucks that can be used as an Engine. Much the same as Tankers can be used as Engines too, they go by their primary role.

Hey, does anyone know how to tell if a Marine unit is a TRUE FIRE BOAT vs. a non-firefighting vessel?

Hmmm.....

[ny10570 745]

Quints are a compromise where you sacrifice some capabilities in exchange for others. As a first response unit they're useful, but if you need an engine, ladder, or both call for such.

[SteveOFD 176]

According to the Westchester DES website, the classifications are based on the NFPA 1901 classifications. Accordingly Quints are not a valid classification in this standard.

[helicopper 1,050]

According to the Westchester DES website, the classifications are based on the NFPA 1901 classifications. Accordingly Quints are not a valid classification in this standard.

But see post #2 in this thread. There is no consistency where there should be.

Effective resource management is predicated on the ability to call for and receive the right resources for job. Calling for a rescue and getting an engine or vice versa complicates things for a commander who already has enough things to worry about. He shouldn't have to say send Engine XYZ from ABC Department because Engine QRS from 123 Department isn't suited to the task he is requesting for.

It has to become the way it is done and not "well, we want to call it a rescue or rescue pumper or rescue engine or mini-attack rescue". Set the standards and either meet them or don't.

[SteveOFD 176]

Chris, I agree with your post, but this is Westchester, and everybody gets it the way they want, and the heck with the way everyone else does it.

[x635 4,066]

Let's pretend I'm and IC.

I'm not sure if I need an aerial or Engine yet....hmmm....what can I do.....call for a Quint.

There's absolutely nothing to convince me that this shouldn't be a valid designation in Westchetser.

There are a lot of discrepencies in Westchesters system. The numbering system should somehow go by battailion, then department, station, and/or apparauts. There's no rhyme or reason, and nothing is enforced.

However, the EMS side of things seems to have a simple solution. Agency-Unit Type-Number

[Bnechis 3,961]

Let's pretend I'm and IC.

I'm not sure if I need an aerial or Engine yet....hmmm....what can I do.....call for a Quint.

If you do not know, either ask for both or reconsider what do you really need.

Getting a rig that can do "either" job poorly is not the answer. Get the correct rig to do the job.

[Bnechis 3,961]

There are a lot of discrepencies in Westchesters system. The numbering system should somehow go by battailion, then department, station, and/or apparauts. There's no rhyme or reason, and nothing is enforced.

We dont run battalions, why should the rigs be numbered that way. But I agree the numbering system is very poor. They do enforce poor concepts, like if its not an eng, ladder, rescue or tanker it must be a utility and all utilities are the same.

We have utilities that are:

pick up trucks

dedicated tow units

vans

busses

dewatering units

rehab

MCI units

spill response units

Mask service units (this one was later given its own designation)

and I'm sure a host of other things.

Sometimes its nice to know what something is

[x635 4,066]

If you do not know, either ask for both or reconsider what do you really need.

Getting a rig that can do "either" job poorly is not the answer. Get the correct rig to do the job.

If I wanted a unit that could hook to a hydrant and maintain it's own master stream, or provide handlines to crews on upper levels, then I want a quint. Or maybe as the incident progresses, I may need that elevated master stream, but for now I just need it for handlines. Quints here aren't an excuse for manpower, crews are trained to be able to work both an engine or truck-and they see a lot of fire. Typically, a Quint runs with an Engine in the same house, and the pump is typically for the elevated master stream. Also, there are a lot of dwellings where a ladder may not be needed, and the quint can then function as an engine, sparing resources. It also doesn't clutter the scene with apparatus that's not needed.

[x635 4,066]

We dont run battalions, why should the rigs be numbered that way. But I agree the numbering system is very poor.

Sometimes its nice to know what something is

You are the one who taught me close to ten years ago about a "task force" concept that would have worked excellent in Westchester. However, with the numbering being the way it is, it would be very complicated.

[FD828 77]

Isn't there some "guideline" recommending what kind of manpower must be on a quint to call it a quint? If you have 3 or 4 guys on the rig, that "quint" is either going to be an engine or a truck, but not both. If you have guys stretching in, you won't have the manpower to throw ladders and/or vent the structure or do primary searches. So unless you have a full compliment of firefighters trained for both engine and truck company operations, a quint is either going to be an engine or a truck, not both.

[x635 4,066]

So unless you have a full compliment of firefighters trained for both engine and truck company operations, a quint is either going to be an engine or a truck, not both.

Yes, but the question is....how do you differentiate that? And what is a Quint? If all these Quints in Westchester are Quints, are we truly using them effectively with our numbering system?

[mfc2257 464]

Ahhh... I've had countless debates on this site regarding the numbering of apparatus in Westchester. It usually ends up with some off hand comment about it's too much of a pain to change... But I'll put my shorter opinion out there again.

Each department in the county just needs a number assigned to it. Take Millwood's chief's call sign that begin 225... Or Department 25... Its REAL simple...

Station 25-1 (Headquarters)

Station 25-2 (Rt134)

Chief 25

Assistant 25

Deputy 25

Truck 25 (Truck 52)

Engine 25-1 (Engine 247)

Engine 25-2 (Engine 248)

Mini Attack 25 (Mini Attack 10)

Rescue 25 (Rescue 36)

Tanker 25 (Tanker 15)

Utility 25 (Utility 44)

EVERY time you hear the number 25 on the air you know it's from Millwood.... Instead today it's a big cluster "F" about who's got what and where it's coming from on the radio at a big job... There are 16 tankers in the county. Number 13 is skipped but because Bedford Hills donated the old Tanker 5 to Pleasantville, they numbered it Tanker 57... It's random... All apparatus and callsigns from each company should have a corresponding number that is unique to the company.

[TCD0415 26]

Thats similar to the designations for apparatus in Putnam County.....

(Dept) - (Type) - (Number)

Dept - All Departments have a designated # XX Brewster = 11, Carmel = 12, Lake Carmel = 17, Patterson = 22 and so on.

Type - Chief = 1

Engine = 2

Brush = 3

Tanker = 4

Truck = 5

Rescue = 6

Ambulance = 7

Fire Police = 8

In Patterson for example: 22-5-1 is the Truck

22-2-1, 22-2-2, 22-2-3... = Engines

22-6-1 = Rescue

22-4-1, 22-4-2 = Tankers

So without intimate knowledge of each departments numbering scheme, you know what you are getting pretty easily.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Here's is a couple of ways in CT how apparatus is number.

In southern Middlesex County and three departments in eastern New Haven County utiize a three digit format: Department Number - Unit Type - Unit number. For example 1-5-1 is Guilford Engine 1, 3-7-1 is Old Saybrook Ladder 1. The unit types are broken down nicely:

1 - Chiefs and line officers

2 - Marine Division

3 - Service Appartus

4 - Ambulance

5 - Engine (500 gallons of water in the tank or more)

6 - Tanker or Engine-Tanker (1000 gallons of water in the tank or more)

7 - Ladder / tower ladder truck

8 - Brush Truck

9 - Rescue

Another way in New London County is the "bingo" system where there is a letter for the town then a two digit number. The first number usually designates the station and the second number the apparatus. So where I work Engine 1 is F-11, Squad 2 is F-12, the tower ladder is F-15. The second number descriptor break down is roughly this:

1 through 4 - Used for engine, tanker, engine- tanker, mini-pumper, brush trucks, service trucks

5 - aerial devices (regardless of size)

6 - EMS responder unit, service vehicle, brush unit

7 - rescues & hazmats

8 - 9 misc or staff cars.

With the exception for the engines, aerials, tankers and rescues its not strictly followed.

Now the majority of eastern CT uses the Apparatus type spoken - unit number - department number

With this all apparatus located at Tolland Station 1 would be Engine 140, Engine-Tanker 140, Rescue 140, Brush 140, Ladder 140. Tolland station 1 is also know as Station 140. Tolland has four stations so say there are two engines at Station 1, then you would have say Engine 140 and Engine 540 for example.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Yes, but the question is....how do you differentiate that? And what is a Quint? If all these Quints in Westchester are Quints, are we truly using them effectively with our numbering system?

I agree with Seth. An I.C. needs to know that if he is calling for an additional MA truck, and it happens to be equipped with a 1500 gpm Waterous pump; that's important information for the IC in his consideration of apparatus placement on the fireground, and what might be asked of the members of that company to take assignment.

I also take issue with Westchester County calling "Ladder Towers"...."Tower Ladders." There is a distinct difference between these two types of apparatus; their lifting capacity, evacuation capability, etc. And once again an IC should have the exact knowledge of what MA help he may be receiving, for all the obvious reasons.

C'mon I mean how difficult would it be to revamp a "rig designation" system for goodness sake? But, then again it is Westchester County, New York......

Edited August 9, 2009 by efdcapt115

[CPAGE 2]

I think the I/C now knows what he is getting. If he asked for and Enginge and a Tower Ladder he gets and Engine 11 and Tower Ladder 24 clear as day. You start saying chief you have 22-3-4 and 22-1-1 what the hell is that lotto numbers. I still think it works the way it is maybe some people dont like it as they did not get the number that like oh well. If it is not broke dont try and fix it.

My 1 cent

[efdcapt115 1,511]

You start saying chief you have 22-3-4 and 22-1-1 what the hell is that lotto numbers.

I agree calling a rig WHAT IT IS; is the way to go.

[helicopper 1,050]

Whatever is done its gotta be simple and easy to understand.

[huzzie59 75]

Go back to the original question.

"What would be a reason NOT to call a Quint a Quint? We call Tower Ladders Tower Ladders, Engine Engines, Rescues Rescues, etc etc."

If you call for an engine, you get an engine. If you call for a ladder, you get a ladder, if you call for a tower ladder, etc. etc.

Forget about numbering. Everybody seems to think the chiefs, volunteer and career, are idiots. They know what the surrounding departments have and what what type of apparatus they're getting. When Engine ___ (fill in the blank) is assigned, they know who they are.

The question is ----- Is the designation "Quint" an appropriate designation.

My opinion. Yes.

"60 Control to Car _________. Quint 25 assigned as the Tower Ladder"

"60 Control to _________. Quint 25 assigned as the Engine"

Then it's up the the chief if he wants to utilize that equipment differently.

Much in the same way a chief will "put the FAST Team to work" as an engine company, assuming they came with an engine, and request another FAST Team.

[x648eng119 2]

Hey, does anyone know how to tell if a Marine unit is a TRUE FIRE BOAT vs. a non-firefighting vessel?

Hmmm.....

Ooh, ooh! I Know this one!!!

Marine Units 1-20 have firefighting capablities. 20 and higher are considered "Resuce" Vessels

[helicopper 1,050]

Ooh, ooh! I Know this one!!!

Marine Units 1-20 have firefighting capablities. 20 and higher are considered "Resuce" Vessels

Is that accurate and enforced?

Look at FDNY, one of the busiest FD's around. Engines, Ladders, Rescues, Squads, Battalion, Division. Sure there are other designations but this is the majority.

"Field Comm to Manhattan, K, special call two additional ladders above the third alarm. Make one of them a tower ladder."

Pretty simple, straight forward and to the point, no?

[x648eng119 2]

Is that accurate and enforced?

Should be. Thats how it was 2 years ago when I worked for 60 Control.

A few off the top of my head;

Marine 1 - Verplanck

Marine 4 - Tarrytown

Marine 12 - Croton

Marine 14 - Ossining (The old one)

All with Pumps

Marine 21 - Montrose VA

Marine 26 - Buchanan

Marine 32 - Croton

Marine 51 - Montrose

All Without Pumps

[efdcapt115 1,511]

They know what the surrounding departments have and what what type of apparatus they're getting. When Engine ___ (fill in the blank) is assigned, they know who they are.

Your post is a good one. May I just point out that frequently apparatus are placed out of service and replaced with a spare. So if the IC knows his neighboring dept. has a tower ladder and needs one, and requests that specific MA truck company thinking it to be a TL, but gets instead a 100 foot aerial spare rig in it's place; it's a problem.

Much in the same way a chief will "put the FAST Team to work" as an engine company, assuming they came with an engine, and request another FAST Team.

IMHO an IC should NEVER put a FAST/RIT company into any operation other than it's intended mayday rescue assignment; no other work except the stand-by for the emergency, the opening up egress ops, checking exposures, prepping equipment, etc., unless and until another FAST/RIT company is IN PLACE and READY (and not still responding or being toned out). Defeats the whole purpose and emphasis of the importance of having a RIT company ready at all times to go into emergency operation. FAST/RIT might have one minute to make a difference, and it isn't going to be effective if the company is "put to work" while another responds. Too often this is implemented because the staffing is inadequate in the first place to make the fire attack.

~Stay safe

[Goose 188]

Is that accurate and enforced?

Look at FDNY, one of the busiest FD's around. Engines, Ladders, Rescues, Squads, Battalion, Division. Sure there are other designations but this is the majority.

Pretty simple, straight forward and to the point, no?

Thats because they know what they are doing lol.

Is it me or does all of this seem like a moot issue? I think there are much more pressing issues for many fire departments of westchester county. Besides the fact that i'm sure my house would burn to the foundation, do you really think this would ever happen? I can see department elders being rather peeved about a switch and departments generally unhappy with having to foot the bill for re-striping etc.

[Remember585 815]

Should be. Thats how it was 2 years ago when I worked for 60 Control.

A few off the top of my head;

Marine 1 - Verplanck

Marine 4 - Tarrytown

Marine 12 - Croton

Marine 14 - Ossining (The old one)

All with Pumps

Marine 21 - Montrose VA

Marine 26 - Buchanan

Marine 32 - Croton

Marine 51 - Montrose

All Without Pumps

I can tell you're rusty... Tarrytown is M5, Irvington has M4.

There are some boats in Westchester that have numbers which, according to the original "plan" aren't what they "claim" to be. I am pretty sure at least one, maybe more, have lower numbers which would indicate they are firefighting vessels, but they aren't.

[ny10570 745]

I'll use Pleasantville as an example here. We have TL5. Still called TL5 and its a 100' stick while we figure out the replacement.

Back when we had TL5, it was a few hand lines short of being a quint. So say we load those on there and we were Quint 5. You're running a fire in a volunteer dept, and as you get near the scene see the smoke and start out the mutual aid so you can get a jump on this thing. Since you still doesn't know exactly what is going to be responding you have a quint and Fast assigned as you confirm a working fire. Quint 5 rolls out from Pleasantville and shows up. If you were hoping to put them to use as an engine, good luck. It took about 5 minutes and lifting of the boom to get 5" out of the bed and carries no water. Made for an excellent truck with plenty of ladders, hooks, axes fans, saws, 100' scope, etc but it would have been a POS engine.

[mfc2257 464]

I'll use Pleasantville as an example here. We have TL5. Still called TL5 and its a 100' stick while we figure out the replacement.

Back when we had TL5, it was a few hand lines short of being a quint. So say we load those on there and we were Quint 5. You're running a fire in a volunteer dept, and as you get near the scene see the smoke and start out the mutual aid so you can get a jump on this thing. Since you still doesn't know exactly what is going to be responding you have a quint and Fast assigned as you confirm a working fire. Quint 5 rolls out from Pleasantville and shows up. If you were hoping to put them to use as an engine, good luck. It took about 5 minutes and lifting of the boom to get 5" out of the bed and carries no water. Made for an excellent truck with plenty of ladders, hooks, axes fans, saws, 100' scope, etc but it would have been a POS engine.

Not to beat a dead horse, but if it didn't carry water, then it can't be a quint... water, hose, aerial device w/waterway, ground ladders, pump.... Preconnected hand lines are not a prerequisite for a unit to be called a quint (or an engine for that matter), hose must simply exist on the apparatus to be deployed. There are still departments that don't run preconnects on their engines.

[Beekman 5]

I can tell you're rusty... Tarrytown is M5, Irvington has M4.

There are some boats in Westchester that have numbers which, according to the original "plan" aren't what they "claim" to be. I am pretty sure at least one, maybe more, have lower numbers which would indicate they are firefighting vessels, but they aren't.

585- You can have him back any time you want. He already knows everything about firefighting. You say the word and he's back at 60!