Unsanctioned fire services in Rockland

[Tapout 42]

I want to hear what you in the fire services (both as paid and volly) honestly think of this... OK, not too honestly or your post may never see the light of day! LOL!

"NEW SQUARE - A continuing dispute over fighting fires in this small Hasidic village once again boiled to the surface when firefighters from Hillcrest yesterday responded to a blaze at the grand rabbi's home and found that a group of unsanctioned local volunteers with a makeshift firetruck had already begun dousing the flames."

http://www.lohud.com/article/2009907210370

[aviator70 16]

I would not call this a "volunteer" department. Sounds like a bunch of renegades who ran out and bought a so-called "emergency vehicle" and respond to calls with no official dispatch with people who are not even trained or certified. I say it borderlines being criminal. We have the same issues in Orange County. These groups seem to show up at emergency calls when they were not dispatched and at incidents that are not in their jurisdictions.

[gpdexplorer 46]

Is there any thing that law enforcement can do to keep groups like this out of our emergency scenes?

It is understandable to want to form an organization that will help your community in emergency situation i.e. C.E.R.T., which is becoming widely popular. However, to go out and have an apparatus to respond on which is most likely not well equiped and have members that most likely have minimal training at best, is plain dangerous and idiotic. Go through the proper channels if you want to respond on alarms. Get set up with your county control, get manpower trained, ensure that you have enough manpower at all times, ensure you have the proper equipment, and set up a chain of command. There's obviously much more to that list, just some of the things that came to mind.

[EJS1810 7]

I would not call this a "volunteer" department. Sounds like a bunch of renegades who ran out and bought a so-called "emergency vehicle" and respond to calls with no official dispatch with people who are not even trained or certified. I say it borderlines being criminal. We have the same issues in Orange County. For some reason, the Hassids seem to show up at emergency calls when they were not dispatcher and at incidents that are not in their jurisdictions.

Look closely at the truck. It has Official NYS plates so obviously the "bunch of renegades" is the village it self.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Aron Kaff, the village's public safety coordinator, said volunteers had grabbed fire extinguishers from a nearby elementary school to defeat the fire.

"They are here to help anybody in the community," he said. "They don't take it upon themselves to go after house fires."

OKAY??!?!?!?!?!?!? Grab extinguishers from a school, who is going to pay for the recharging of them??? Not chasing fires??? Umm I guess that statement proved them wrong.

[Beekman 5]

So if the truck had an "Official" license plate, would a call to PESH help?

Then again there is this gem in the news:

Hasidic bungalow colony members defy town order to vacate building

By Victor Whitman,Times Herald-RecordPosted: July 18, 2009 - 2:00 AMWHITE LAKE — The Town of Bethel remains in a showdown with a Hasidic bungalow colony over the use of a newly built shul and community center. The town this week ordered the colony to vacate the building and stop work for safety reasons, but on Friday, a steady stream of people entered and exited in defiance with the town supervisor looking on.

"The stop work order and order to vacate is posted in the window, and we expect it to be complied with," Supervisor Dan Sturm told two Hasidic men while others strolled in an out of the unfinished building off Route 17B holding prayer books. "It will be complied with."

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...;emailAFriend=1

[ajsbear 11]

Look closely at the truck. It has Official NYS plates so obviously the "bunch of renegades" is the village it self.

Does not mean that is the vehicle the plates belong on. For once why don't these people work within the system. Ask the local FD for help, create a New Square substation and they man the rig, get proper training etc. They are going to get themselves in over their heads and someone is going to have to bail them out and maybe get seriously hurt or worse. Rockland Fire and State fire officials as well as law enforcement need to get into this before that happens. When fire is blowing out a window or 2, 200 gallons is nothing.

Someone mention Mutual aid?? go ahead but it works both ways. Who is going to call in a bunch of untrained, ill equipt want a be's?

[dadbo46 50]

What a mess.

[helicopper 1,050]

What does Town/Village law say about establishing a fire department? Aren't there statutory requirements for them and don't they have to meet minimum requirements? I don't think anyone will turn a blind eye to this if it is challenged with facts and good information and not just emotional, though well-intentioned, arguments. PESH is another agency to consider but unless these are "public employees", I don't know if they'll have jurisdiction.

The elected body responsible for the Village needs to address this and if they choose to ignore it, then it should be brought to the County Fire Coordinator. The parties involved could also consider legal action if all else fails. If code enforcement is an issue here, then the issue needs to be discussed and resolved by the Town/Village boards and well documented.

From purely a practical and safety point of view, there would probably be issues for many of these people to become qualified firefighters because of the incompatibility of PPE with the religious obligations - such as facial hair and other things.

If they want to become an FD, they should start the process from the beginning and not just jump into it in the middle by responding to things.

As for the license plates, there are a great many vehicles out there that have no business having "official" plates but I doubt we'll see much change there.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Yeah, that's just what we need to deal with, taking orders from a "Chief" who never fought an interior fire in his life and only holds the position because he's popular in the community or is related to the Grand Rabbi.

Like this has not happened in many other FD's regardless of the religious affiliations.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

What does Town/Village law say about establishing a fire department? Aren't there statutory requirements for them and don't they have to meet minimum requirements? I don't think anyone will turn a blind eye to this if it is challenged with facts and good information and not just emotional, though well-intentioned, arguments. PESH is another agency to consider but unless these are "public employees", I don't know if they'll have jurisdiction.

The elected body responsible for the Village needs to address this and if they choose to ignore it, then it should be brought to the County Fire Coordinator. The parties involved could also consider legal action if all else fails. If code enforcement is an issue here, then the issue needs to be discussed and resolved by the Town/Village boards and well documented.

From purely a practical and safety point of view, there would probably be issues for many of these people to become qualified firefighters because of the incompatibility of PPE with the religious obligations - such as facial hair and other things.

If they want to become an FD, they should start the process from the beginning and not just jump into it in the middle by responding to things.

As for the license plates, there are a great many vehicles out there that have no business having "official" plates but I doubt we'll see much change there.

Sorry, Chris and everyone else but the issue regarding mask seal and religious facial hair has already been decided. In Potter v. District of Columbia, U.S. Court of Appeals, DC Circuit, No. 07-7163, 3/6/09, A DC firefighter successfully challenged a no beard policy because it was for religious observance. It is a violation of religious bias laws to force a firefighter to shave the beard.

I am totally against these guys...they seem insane....there is no way you can successfully fight a modern working structure fire with that little brush/utility truck, simply not enough water and hose. How about PPE, I dont see any, does anyone else? Shut these guys down, integrate these guys into the pre-existing command and train and equip them in the fire district that way the chief of the fire district knows these guys are trained and equipped and in command.

Edited July 21, 2009 by bvfdjc316

[helicopper 1,050]

Sorry, Chris and everyone else but the issue regarding mask seal and religious facial hair has already been decided. In Potter v. District of Columbia, U.S. Court of Appeals, DC Circuit, No. 07-7163, 3/6/09, A DC firefighter successfully challenged a no beard policy because it was for religious observance. It is a violation of religious bias laws to force a firefighter to shave the beard.

I am totally against these guys...they seem insane....there is no way you can successfully fight a modern working structure fire with that little brush/utility truck, simply not enough water and hose. How about PPE, I dont see any, does anyone else? Shut these guys down, integrate these guys into the pre-existing command and train and equip them in the fire district that way the chief of the fire district knows these guys are trained and equipped and in command.

I don't think it has been decided PRACTICALLY, just legally. If mask seal can not be established, they will not succeed in an IDLH environment, thus they will either become secondary victims or fail in their mission to rescue others. If other PPE can not be worn/is not available, they will suffer the same fate.

I remember that court decision but does anyone know if that firefighter is assigned to a front line company or if he is assigned elsewhere because of the PPE issue?

Though they don't have any type of enforcement authority, the standards from NFPA (and others) is pretty clear and these guys don't come close. There is already a fire department serving this area; if they want to join it, fine. They should not try to start their own.

[helicopper 1,050]

Please remember to focus on the issue and keep personal biases and/or discriminatory/antisemitic remarks out of this thread. Such remarks will be deleted immediately.

Thank you for your cooperation!

[x129K 1,393]

Like this has not happened in many other FD's regardless of the religious affiliations.

LOL....very valid point!

[Guest Local596Secretary]

Interesting......It must really suck to have a renegade department try and do your JOB. Good thing that type of thing doesn't happen all over the place

[x129K 1,393]

Interesting......It must really suck to have a renegade department try and do your JOB. Good thing that type of thing doesn't happen all over the place

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.................so true!

[KC2OBW 1]

I'm just waiting on a youtube video to come out saying what a "great" job these guys do and so one and son on..............

[jack10562 414]

I'm not condoning their activities, sanctioned or not, to me it appears to be more like a fire brigade type of thing used exclusively on private property. However if they are going to continue with any fire suppression at all, they obviously need proper equipment and training.

Also, I also don't think anyone needs to worry, this unit is not going to go around and geep neighboring department's jobs and just roll in unrequested, to freelance.

[AFS1970 504]

Notice that the truck says "Emergency Serices" and not Fire Department. I am just guessing here, but that may be because there are statutory requirements that they either can't or won't met to be considered a fire department.

There is a group in NYC somewhere that is called a shomrim (I think I spelled it right) and had a youtube video posted, they were doing the same thing but interfering with Law Enforcement. There was also a group in the New Haven CT area that was serving as an armed community watch program. In that case I know a CT security instructor who contacted them and offered to train them and help get them set up as a security agency for their community but they turned him down.

Sadly it seems that groups like this, while possibly well intentioned, are determined to keep operating in a renegade manner, which is dangerous for everyone.

[99subi 121]

Not to be racist or anything but for some reason alot of jewish communities seem to try things like this.

[Geppetto 31]

New Square weighs starting fire unit

By Steve Lieberman and Jenna Carlesso

Journal News

July 26, 2009

New Square officials may form a fire department or have their residents join the Hillcrest Fire Department to provide added protection for the community.

Either way, residents can't cut ties to the Hillcrest Fire Department, which is responsible for protecting the Hasidic Jewish village, and they must be fully trained in firefighting before they can lift a hose....

http://www.lohud.com/article/2009907260344

[ltx17 19]

there is a second one hidden behind the "chaverim" group;this has shown on a couple of fires my dept has been dispatched to

i'll post a picture of the truck when i get a moment

Edited July 26, 2009 by ltx17

[moggie6 54]

I think New Square should be able to form it's own fire dept. Let's make sure they are trained to the minimum of firefighter 1. They should send one person to become a state instructor so they can teach themselves in house just like other volunteer fire depts do. Then after that they can hold an election for chief officers, send them to the nys classes and have them become a real volutneer fire dept. The community should have the same option as any other community in this state and to choose the level of service they want to have. Whats wrong with that?

[helicopper 1,050]

I think New Square should be able to form it's own fire dept. Let's make sure they are trained to the minimum of firefighter 1. They should send one person to become a state instructor so they can teach themselves in house just like other volunteer fire depts do. Then after that they can hold an election for chief officers, send them to the nys classes and have them become a real volutneer fire dept. The community should have the same option as any other community in this state and to choose the level of service they want to have. Whats wrong with that?

It's not that simple. Fire Districts are political subdivisions and as such have authority to levy taxes and collect money to operate. What you're proposing is the creation of a second fire district to cover an area already covered by the Hillcrest FD. This means that Hillcrest will have to either redraw their district lines or agree to the diversion of funds to a new department.

I fail to see why we need to create any more layers of government in NYS. Unless it can be proven that the Hillcrest FD is not meeting its mandate of responding to fire calls in this area, the over-eager volunteers should join Hillcrest and respond to all the calls in the entire Hillcrest district and not just a segment of it.

How will they operate on the Sabbath? Will Hillcrest be expected to provide "mutual aid" during this time? There's nothing mutual about that because Hillcrest operates 24/7.

If they are so motivated and want so badly to be a part of the system, join the system that exists already. There's no need for a new one!

[res6cue 67]

I find it very curious that the article makes absolutely no mention of the handful of New Square residents who DID join Hillcrest a few years ago. Where are they now? Are they still active members? If not, why? Funny how none of this is addressed in that article, instead making it seem like the idea of New Square residents joining Hillcrest is some new, novel idea.

Note the two gentlemen on the right in this photo from the Park Ave fire back in Dec 2006:

There is SO much more to this saga than meets the eye and is written about in the paper. I really shouldn't even be posting on this topic, I deleted my previous posts for good reason, but this is just getting ridiculous now with the misleading articles being printed. I'm getting concerned that the FD is starting to look like the bad guys here, which could not be further from the truth.

Edited July 27, 2009 by res6cue

[eckyphats 0]

let them carry on

whole colony burns down

win win?

[Guest Engine1]

Maybe we can make their apparatus the EMT Bravo Muster engine?? Is it legal to just respond to calls in your own engine?

[IzzyEng4 427]

The article did state about joining the Hillcrest Fire Dept., why not go the route of establishing a new fire station in the area and become part of the HFD / Moleston Fire District? It would make more sense to do that granted training for the potential members would take some time.