FASTeam Dispatch

[hudson144 150]

the original and main purpose of the fast,rit or whatever you want to call it is to protect and save your own if stuff hits the fan.many fires now you hear a 10-75 transmitted and a neighboring dept. dispatched for a fast team. on some occasions by the time that the team arrives on the fire scene there is a "puff" of smoke coming from the fire building and the team sets up in front next to the other 20 guys from the department that has the fire. I do agree that the system does work at times but it needs to be re-defined before it is too late. We all want to get in there and go to work but to be honest how many firefighters do you need on the 1st line? You do need a back up line for the 1st crew as well as a crew to help in case the worst does happen.Some depts may have to train their own to be the fast team until the neighboring dept shows up. if they do have the luxury of having additional men available then it should be considered. Timing is everything,a fire at 10 am during the week may have different amounts of firefighters than 10 pm during the week,"circumstances dictate actions". Its not easy but somehow things need to be re-established and be more defined.As far as letting the fast team go in and get involved lets not forget that structures have collapsed well after the flames and smoke has cleared and firefighters are still in jeapordy while inside working,EG:heart attack,or some other medical problems. if you are assigned to a fast team try to keep your ground and stay as the team.it may take shackles to keep us there but is important that you are available in case you are needed. keep safe!

[Remember585 815]

Hudson is on the money with his / her comments. On arrival of a working fire, the first arriving officer should immediatly request a FAST, and in the process of giving incoming units their assignments, should also designate a FAST crew. The NFPA states that for every two personnel operating in an IDLH atmosphere they should be supported by two personnel outside the IDLH. If you have two engines and a truck on your initial alarm, you could take a couple off the 2nd due engine and designate them the FAST until the incoming Team has arrived. It is good to see that the FAST concept has been accepted in many districts in Westchester, and it is good to know that more departments are creating their own teams. Keep up the good (and smart) work Westchester! =D>

[hudson144 150]

with departments the size of ossining as well as peekskill i go back to what i said the other day,there is no reason for a dept. with a large amount of their own manpower standing around watching not to be formed as a fast team.it takes time for mutual aid companys to respond in from other communitys to be the team.i honestly feel that even though legally a team does not have to be in place until it is clear that all civilian occupants are accounted for.however,what is wrong with having a team in place from the beginning of the incident through the end.our priority is us,us,us!over 100 firefighters die in a year here in the us. way too many!whem **** hits the fan and someone is not acounted for then we really have to rely on the others out front to save us. I know first hand how important it is to have someone out there. departments need to work together with each other and other departments with a bunch of companys need to work with and for each other.to a certain degree,its a form of consolidaton. its happening all over the country!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Hudson you bring up some really valid points. But I do disagree with some of them. First Peekskill is not as large as a department as you think and would generally run into some problems attempting to fast themselves. Which I am only for self FAST in departments that are generally geographically large and socialally segregated (for lack of better term). As much as I considered myself a professional and a person whom operates very well under pressure (ask x635 he's dealt with me on the radio often enough) I would still be hard pressed not to somewhat lose that ability if someone I knew were trapped or missing, even more so a family member. Could cause lack of strategic thinking and decision making leading to further disaster. The point is FAST is designed to aid with 2 in 2 out, but more to have someone there trained in firefighter assistance. I could easily manage a scene without FAST and still comply with 2 in 2out and protect my firefighters.

The final thing is this...we discuss FAST with 3 pages of posts. Yes on average just over 100 firefighters die per year as LODD's. That is way to high and you know why? HEART ATTACKS KILL 50% OF THEM EACH YEAR!! No FAST team can stop that. But we never talk about those issues!!

[Guest DFFD227]

ALS,

You are correcto! You could have 100+ FAST members on the scene, but they could never prevent, or (in some cases) prevent some kind of cardiac arrest. I mean I'm no EMT, Paramedic...Hell, I'm not even a real Firefighter yet, but I Really don't think a Firefighter can predict/Prevent (Well, maybe prevent by good diet etc..) when a heart attack is coming, nor can any one of the matter. The point I'm trying to make here, is that there are firefighters out there that are out of shape, and are at a total risk of heart failure, but then again there are Firefighters, paid, and Volley that take care of there bodies. I guess that's what it pretty much comes down to, taking care of your body, seeing a doctor, Eating right, and making sure your in good physical (and mental) health. Well, I think I went a little off topic, but ALS brought it up, and I had to throw that one out there.

[Guest]

FAST TEAMS NEED TO BE DISPATCHED ON ALL REPORTED 10-75'S AOUTOMATICALLY. THE IC SHOULD NOT WAIT UNTILL THEY ARRIVE ON SCENE. IT MAY TAKE AWHILE TO ASSEMBLE THE TEAM. ALSO IT SHOULD BE THE CLOSEST TEAM AVAIL. NOT THE TEAM YOU LIKE. FOR EXAMPLE. PEEKSKILL IS CLOSER TO BUCHANAN THE CROTON. PEEKSKILL SHOULD BE GOING. THEY ARE THE CLOSEST

THE CLOSEST NEEDS TO BE GOING FIRST. NOT THE FURTHEST

[1075thebox 1]

Response time, not proximity may be the factor here.....

[x635 4,066]

I really hope RIT/FAS Teams are not giving the firefighters in the county a false sense of security. You should remember your own survival skills at all times, and the FAS/RIT should just be there to "Compliment" those skills.

[Guest DFFD227]

Well, going back to the situation where you may tire out the FAST Team Members, and they may get tired of all the "fake" calls etc... but look at Tower Ladder57 BH. They operate 3 Villages. Katonah, Bedford, and themselves. When Bedford, or Katonah have a poss fire, The TL gets toned out. Now, why can't dispatching a FASTeam be like dispatching TL-57 to Katonah/Bedford? I bet you Some members of TL-57 aren't that upset, I mean sure, they probably got all excited while enroute, and then get canceled because it was food on the stove, or a candle in the window or something, sure they may be a little pissed off. I mean thats not going to stop that crew from responding to there neighbors for help, in fear it may be a BS job. With the FAST Team it's no different...It means another village/town/city is in deep crap and they need help ASAP!. GET THEM ON THE ROAD IN ONE SHOT BEFORE SOMEONE REGRETS IT!

[x635 4,066]

Suggested Reading For All

"No Way Out, Why Rapid Intervention Often Fails" by Nick Brunacini

Page 39 Of The Feb '04 Edition of Fire-Rescue Magazine. Based on the changes Phoenix FD has made to their RIT procedures based on RIT failures. (PFD is one of the most progressive departments in the world)

Two Of My Favorite Quotes From The Article

"Mayday calls are a symptom of a deeper problem, and RIT will not fix it"

"RIT:It's like trying to place your seatbelt on a millisecond before you launch through the windshield of your car"

Excellent article from a great magazine that's really been on the ball lately.

As I have stated before, I strongly disagree with dispatching of a FAS team on any UNCONFIRMED structure fires.

This wastes peoples time,dulls their reactions increases liabilty and accident rates, and most importantly, takes away resources, in this caise being trained manpower and equipment from it's first due community.

And again, I really hope RIT/FAS Teams are not giving the firefighters in the county a false sense of security. You should remember your own survival skills at all times, and the FAS/RIT should just be there to "Compliment" those skills.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Nicely put Seth! Just to add my 2 cents....As Seth stated, we can not and should not learn to rely solely on RIT/FAS Teams. Instead, we all must remember our basic training and take into consideration what guys did before RIT/FAS Teams were established/created. RIT/FAS Teams are simply a "safety-net" that can be put into place in needed. Firefighters shouldn't just have this picture in thier minds that if they get jammed up they should just lay there and wait for the RIT/FAST to come to thier rescue. We all need to go back to the basics and feel comfortable in ourselves and our training so that if the stuff hits the fan, we can hopefully help ourselves and not totally rely on the RIT/FAST. Yes, it is a great asset to have a team there if we need them, but its also great to feel confident in ourselves. For anyone who has never taken it, i strongly recommend taking "Firefighter Survival." It is an excellent course that is based on FDNY Battalion Chief John Salka's "Staying out of Trouble" and "Getting out Alive" seminars. The course is offered quite frequently at the WCFTC, usually on Saturdays. If i remember correctly, the course is one day and is only 6 or 8 hours. You spend a few hours in the classroom and the rest is all hands-on outside. Its a few hours of your life that may very well save your life one day! Just my opinion! BFD1054

[Guest Car2037]

I don't think that FAST on scene, gives anyone a false sense of security. I also tend to disagree with "internal" FAST. When we're dispatched Mutual Aid for FAST, we are going with a crew of guys who have taken Safety & Survival, followed by the FAST Tactics class, and we train as a team accordingly, and regularly. Even if a FF has a heart attack inside a building, a FAST is beneficial because we've been trained to get him out as quickly and efficiently as possible. Obviously the quicker out, the sooner he gets medical attention. We all know the most dangerous time of a fire is the first 20 minutes (on average), so I wouldn't waste the 3 - 5 minutes it takes for a chief to get there and confirm to dispatch FAST. FAST could be on the road at that time in theory, and I know that my perspective on the "false-Fires" is that you can get me out of whatever I am doing for a FAST call any time, it's for Firefighter Safety .... and for my money, there's nothing more important.

Just my $0.02

[hudson144 150]

from reading all of the above thoughts you all have some great points.as I had mentioned before the main purpose of fast/rit is to protect ourselves from the worst thing that can happen,being trapped or lost in a fire/emergency situation. For those of us that feel that the fast team is the answer to everything I want you to take a look at the study that the phoenix fd did about fast teams. I have a close friend on the job there and he says that if any new methods or tools hits the market they usually get it to try it out. The other thing that pfd is big on is admitting to mistakes made and learning from them! alot of depts. don't want to admit to any wrong doing and they go on like nothing happened. Its great to have a forum like this because it gives us all a chance to voice our opinions and learn from others. do we all work the same way? NO! we don't ,each dept has their own set of rules and sog's that may not work in other depts. keep subjects like this going and we all can learn ! be safe

[hudson144 150]

this morning I heard a dept working at a structure fire with a neighboring dept. being called in for a fast team,just out of curiousity I monitored the call and it tokk the neighboring team 9 mins. to assemble and 15 minutes to get to the incident. I really don't have a problem with this as long as the department that has the fire has some of their own standing by as the fast team.I'm sure that this has been mentioned before in this forum and thats why I watched this incident. Hopefully most depts if not all utilize their own as their own members are inside doing fire suppression dutys or doing a primary search. Enough said for now.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Great point Hudson144. That call this am, I also monitored, and one good positive was that it was requested very early. From what I understand, the fire upon arrival was barely in the earliest incipient stages and if I remember correctly I believe the initial alarm was for an inside odor of smoke. I believe that the time/day of week had something to play in the amount of time, as well as a few other issues. Just because FAST/RIT isn't on scene or on the way doesn't excuse the IC from conducting a safe and lawful incident.

[CG206 29]

For those who are unsure of the call being discussed, the call is Mohegan's Working fire on 3/25/04 in the Incident's Alert Forum

[Guest Car2037]

I made a statement in my last post that I think I need to clarify. I said that I didn't agree with "internal" FAST. I should say that I disagree with using "internal" as the ONLY FAST. I wouldn't want any IC of a scene where I was in a building thinking that it would be ok to have no one working in FAST capacity just because he's requested another dept. and they're on their way. I would like to see the FAST training take off and see an increase of departments that offer a fully trained team available for mutual aid. IMO, this would cut down on the response time to the incident if you could immediately call a neighbor. The quicker your M/A FAST arrives, the quicker you can put your own FF's to work. Any thoughts?