FASTeam Dispatch

[RWC130 594]

Over the past few weeks I have been monitoring some local fire departments who have had working structure fires and have called out for a FASTeam. I have noticed at times a delay in making the request, delays in assembling crews and manpower issues which ultimately effects the response time of the FASTeam to the fire scene.

The purpose of a FASTeam is for us the firefighters. Well, if that is the case why don't we have the FASTeam automatically dispatched on calls for reported structure fires? This will save us time, could save us a life, maybe even your life.

You can always cancel them if not needed but you can't get them to the scene any faster if a brother FF goes down or is missing.

Something to think about...

SOP's should be set up between fire departments and 60 control for automatic dispatch of a FASTeam to reported structure fires.

Just a thought, What do you think?? RWC

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[Guest DFFD227]

I think that is a great idea. Every Second Counts!

[CG206 29]

Since I am 100% Pro FAS Team, I believe that automatic dispatch of a FAS Team is essential. The first 5-10 minutes of a fire are the worst and this is typically how long it takes a FAS Team to get on the road. I think dispatch of a team should occur as soon as a fire is reported. I know Mahopac Falls FD has Mohegan on automatic dispatch as soon as a 10-75 is transmitted. All the chief has to say is "working fire" and Mohegan FAST and a tanker from Mahopac are automatically dispatched through pre-set protocols through 40-Control (Putnam County). I would like to see depts start initiating automatic dispatching of FAS Teams. Heck, I'd rather get turned around then arrive to have to do something when its too late!!

[x635 4,066]

I like how Yonkers (Soon Greenburgh too, and FDNY has a similar setup) where the 4th due engine is FAS.

In MY opinion, I feel certain things need to happen with the FAS program.

WCDES needs to standardize/mandate FAS training, protocols, and equipment to keep everybody on the same level. This would ensure maximum interoperability, one of my favorite words.

All FAS Firefighters should have to certify and qualify as well, imilar to an EMT.

Maybe even make it a requirment to pass Firefighter I.

For some systems, the fourth due FAS idea works.For others, upon receipt of a 10-75, FAS team should assemble and standby, or take a non-emergent "roll" towards the scene until a 10-75 is confirmed, whether it is PD or command, therefore lowering on scene arrival times.

The only issue I see with this idea is if the FAS arrives before the command and/or first due 1 and 1, will they inevitably stretch a line or go to work other than FAS stuff. (How do you explain the first big red truck pulling up and not doing anything, waiting for somebody else, to the public?) Then that screws up the whole department response as well, and will cause personal and departmental conflicts, so some sort of procedure needs to be in place for this.

Another problem is alot of the FAS members don't like having to "sit around" and freelance, or try to shove FAS duties off on another company.

The FAS team is a critical need for any structural fire. To have them there ASAP is important, but how do we set it up to avoid "issues"

[1075thebox 1]

A simple solution to this is Education! Each FAST unit should be reaching out to their neighboring agencies and advising them of their capabilities. Furthermore, As a responding Chief or Commanding Officer, upon receiving an alarm that may be creditable, have your dispatcher activate a FAST, even if it is to have them stage in their own quarters or yours.

Time is of the essence.

[Guest DG795]

some excellent points here, a few in particular that I strongly agree with:

The first 5-10 minutes are the most dangerous. This is usually when the FASTeam is assembling and en route. There needs to be a supplemental plan to use prior to FAST arrival. Of course if we all had unlimited manpower, this would be easy, but we all can agree that in the first 10 minutes, we need all the hands we can get. Some alternatives may be to designate certain positions as FAST positions if necessary. (For example, the door man on the first engine acts as the doorman, but will leave this position to assume FF rescue duties if necessary) I know this will spread crews thinner, but think about it. You know if a FF goes down and there is no FAST o/s yet, all FF's there will start to attempt rescues. wouldnt it be nice to have 3 or 4 guys already assigned to do this instead of having everyone abandon operations? Of course this is far from a perfect solution, but it is something to think about as a BETTER solution prior to FAST arrival.

FASTeams need to be assembled quickly...they should be assembling upon the first dispatch of any possible structure fire.

There needs to be standard of training, equipment and manpower. If one team only assembles 3 people, then a second FAST should be summoned to supplement...and with standard training and equipment, the teams could work well together.

Throw the FASTeam a bone!...after the fire is knocked down and the building is safer, why not let the FAST into play a little bit with overhaul....none of us like to stand around, but unfortunately that is a big part of FAST...so why not let the team have some work? Its a group of fresh guys to provide relief once the FAST duties are no longer neccessary.

[Remember585 815]

Doug makes a good point (like usual).

AS 1075 said, education is key. Those of us in the FAST business need to reach out to our neighboring Departments and inform them of a few pieces of information...

How many guys you usually role with.

How long it takes on average to respond both DAY and NIGHT.

What rig you use primarily and what other rigs you can bring if needed.

What you expect of them in terms of staging area, equipment, personnel, EMS < this is important.

A command freq., operations freq., and EMS Freq.

I will go into further detail and discuss the FAST Theory and its Roles in the Training Section after the New Year. To all my brothers and sisters out there, stay safe, and have a hell of a New Year's!!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Excellent points by all. I agree with RWC's assessment and opinion about automatic FAST dispatch. But as we all know in Westchester that isn't always the easiet way. Every situation is different, we all know, so simply declaring 1 department your FAST agency is always feasible, especially if they have another unit that you may need mutual aid for a given incident. However, this does depend on the agency you want to utilize and their capabilities. You may have a neighboring agency that can afford to let a unit provide FAST and still give another or 2 mutual aid for other functions. Besides auto dispatch of FAST, we have mulitudes of other problems to deal with. Like resistance to switch over to fireground channels, or sometimes even switching over late. Whether big or small the fireground channels are there to be used, instead we jam up 46.26 or for some of us, our UHF dispatch channels.

As far as training, I'm gonna one up x635. Pass FFI? How about minimum FFII, CFR, and with the new curriculum's coming out that will handle Survival. I also think that rescue ops is beneficial and a minimum time in service is needed as a base and an evaluation system to determine members. No offense to anyone, but this isn't a status symbol operation. If you take a look at any dept. with dedicated Speical operations staff, all generally go through a interview type process where credentials, time, experience and such are taken into account.

[Remember585 815]

ALSFirefighter is right, too many people out there want to be on their respective FAST / RIT Units just to feel like one of the big boys. Want to feel good about yourself when you aren't confident in yourself? Step up and say "Hey, I'm not ready for this kind of work." More people will respect someone who admits they CAN'T do something rather then tease them.

A real man, check that, a real FIREFIGHTER will realize their limits, do what they know how, and learn what they don't. Like I always say, a good Firefighter makes themself a student of the science FOR LIFE!

Leave the FAST / RIT work to those who should be doing it. God forbid you're ever the one in need, do you want someone at your side asking themself "Now what do I do?" I don't think so!

[BFD1054 1,552]

Great points by all!!! I have to agree with many of you and say that FASTeams should be on automatic dispatch for 10-75's. My department (Buchanan), like many depts. have thier 3 choice FASTeams listed in order for 60-Control. Our primary is Croton, followed by Peekskill and then Mohegan. Mohegan used to be our primary back when they were like the sole FASTeam in the area. Our Chief had the choice of haveing a FASTeam automatically dispatched or upon his request and we went with the latter. Therefore, an officer must get on scene, confirm a 10-75 and then request Croton. Then 60 has to dispatch Croton, then thier members must assemble and then finally respond. Take into account the time it may take for an officer to get on scene and request the FAST, then get them dispatched, assembled and on the road. Croton has an excellent team and they get out real quick, but even if they assemble in like 5 minutes, it still may take them 5-10 minutes to get on-scene. Thats why i feel SOP's should be changed. A good idea may be when a Dept. gets dispatched to a poss. structure fire, the the FASTeam assembles in thier quarters. If a Dept. gets dispatched to a confirmed fire, than the FASTeam should be automatically dispatched, just my opinion though. As CG206 said, you can always cancel a FASTeam en-route. I'd rather be safe than sorry, but thats just me. I think it'd be great to know in the back of your mind that you have a FASTeam responding, even if you end up cancelling them. While on the subject of FASTeams....i have one small problem. I have seen way too many times where a FASTeam gets put to work for firefighting operations due to lack of manpower or whatever, and nobody thinks to call a 2nd FASTeam. My feelings are if you need the manpower and you gotta use the FASTeam, go ahead, but request your 2nd due FASTeam A.S.A.P. cause the FASTeam is no longer the FASTeam once they get out to work as far as i'm concerned. I can remember a fire within the last year where Croton E-119 was responding to a structure fire with the FASTeam and to thier surprise became the 2nd due Engine. In this situation, everything worked out ok because they layed in from the hydrant, the driver stayed with the rig as the pump-op and they had ample members of the Team to grap thier equipment and stage. But if those guys went to firefighting operations, then a 2nd team (Mohegan in this incident) should have been called. As many of you have said, FASTeams are essential in fire operations, and they need to get there as fast as possible. Dispatching them automatically wouldn't hurt anyone, and actually may save someone!!! FASTeams are there to protect us, the firefighters, so i'd be much happier knowing thier en-route or standing by for a possible or confirmed fire. Just my thoughts/opinions. Stay safe everyone and happy new year!!! BFD1054

[Guest KEES132]

HAVING A FAS TEAM DISPATCHED ON THE INITIAL CALL IS NOT A BAD IDEA, BUT IT IS WAISTING THE RESCOURCES OF THE OTHER DEPTS. PERHAPS THEY SHOULD BE PLACED ON STANDBY (STAGING AT THEIR OWN DEPT.) UNTIL ANY CONFERMATION IS MADE. ALSO, ANY DEPARTMENT THAT IS RESPONDING TO A POSS STRUCTURE CALL SHOULD HAVE TWO OF THEIR OWN INTERIOR FIREFIGHTERS STAND BY TILL THE NEIGHBORING TEAM GETS THERE.

ALSO, ONCE A FAS TEAM IS ON THE SCENE, THEY SHOULD REMAIN AS THE FAS TEAM AND NOT GO TO WORK UNTIL ANOTHER TEAM IS IN PLACE ON THE SCENE TO RELIEVE THEM OF THEIR DUTIES!

TRAINING IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS!

[Remember585 815]

The County Chiefs should spend some time working out a plan for this - too much time is focused on issues that aren't moving anywhere.

[Guest Lieutenant6474]

I have to respectfully disagree with KEES132 having a FAST dispatch as part of automatic mutual aid... It is not a waste of resources. We have the luxury of a county with more apparatus redundancy than most areas of the USA could ever dream of not to mention more fire departments than you could shake a stick at. The unfortunate truth is that the most dangerous time for us the when the initial attack is being made. This is when we as firefighters need to know that there is a FAST team on the street especially because of the extented period of time that it takes FAST units to set up upon arrival. In fact as far as I'm concerned, any alarm that is dispatched following any confirmation of fire in a structure should have not only a FAST team on the box but EMS as well.

[RWC130 594]

Thanks for the great feedback brothers!

I think we all can agree at a minimum a RIT / FAST

should be put on "Standby" for any structure fire calls.

Personally I would rather see them canceled and turned

around rather than a FF down and your RIT / FAST are still assembling a crew.... Something to think about!

Mention it to your Chief Officers.

The life you save may be your own!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Not to offend anyone, because I agree nor disagree on when a FAST/RIT should be requested, that is a individual department and/or incident commander decision. Whether or not you put them on standby or not it still will take some time to get them assembled and on the road. That is a fact of life. The issue of having a firefighter down, lost, disorientated or trapped during the initial phases of arrival comes down to several other issues: One being 2 in/2out. Many departments are still violating this standard, especially during daytime hours. Secondly, the initial phase of an incident upon arrival is often the most critical when it comes to 1: outcome 2: events in which the opportunities for a event to occur to cause a injury, death or other event. FAS Teams do not replace good training in survival, and fire behavior to allow your firefighters to perform self-size up upon arrival (any good officer would do so anyway), flashover indicators, collapse indicators, how to protect yourself, when, how to know that you are not making any progress when attacking a fire, and the biggest one of all is the over reliance of preconnects today in the fire service. A 1 3/4 line is not the weapon of choice for every fire, but all to often regardless of arriving conditions it is the first line pulled.

Always ask yourself, what did we do before the concept of FAST/RIT. And always remember that just because FAST/RIT is there, doesn't always mean that is the answer, fire conditions always take priority and it may not be condusive for anyone to operate. Remember Worcester that cost us 6 lives, the second crew attempted to locate a missing crew.

[DRD 0]

For those Departments in Northern Westchester with established FAST, we here in Larchmont are in the process of forming a team. Much of the basic training is complete and we are assembling equipment and planning drills. I was hoping that you could possibly share with me any SOP's, equipment lists, deployment procedures, member policies, and similar items that could also be applied to our department. This site is a great way to network. Thanks.

EMAIL:

ddelborgo@hotmail.com

[mfc2257 464]

Happy to help. I'll email you this weekend.

[Guest DFFD227]

Another good example on how this idea needs to be conducted is the Peekskill fire that happened 1-30-04. As soon as Peekskill gave the confirmation that they had a working fire, 60 Control immediately contacted Mohegan for the FASTeam. That's good, but IMO it needs to be faster! Peekskill got initially dispatched about 5 or 7 minutes before they contacted Mohegan. Now When 60 control dispatched Peekskill to Carhart, that would be the perfect time to get Mohegan on there feet, and on standby, just in case it turns out to be a worker. 5-7 Minutes is a long time, especially if the FASTeam has a hard time getting there. Mohegan and Peekskill are both very big districts, and it can take some time to get on the scene. I personally think it would have been easier to dispatch Peekskill FD, and then Notify KEI603 to put there FAST on Standby, and even if it turns out to be a false alarm, Mohegan can be cancelled, and I can bet that the FF's of Mohegan won't feel that it was any inconvenience.

[CG206 29]

I personally dont have a problem with that!! We have been turned around in the past and it will happen in the future. For a fellow firefighter, I would rather be sent home then to arrive too late. Mohegan FASTeam went to a minor fire in Mahopac Falls late Tuesday night during the snowstorm. We got called when units arrived at the scene and it took us a little more time to assemble and get to the scene because of the weather. This is where a standby upon dispatch might have lowered response time due to the road conditions.

[Guest DFFD227]

If you think about it...it's easy to set up...look, Lets say Millwood Has a Report of a Structure Fire, this is what it could sound like...

60 Control to Millwood and Briarcliff, Respond 123Main Steet Cross from Blah AV in the Village of Millwood, for a possible Structure Fire, Briarcliff assemble and standby for FAST instructions...

Thats pretty much all it takes...And like Chris said, and I think all of us agree that we rather be sent home, then to arrive too late...Now how exactly can this be brought up, and draw attention to this matter?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

If you start to bang out FAST stand by's, what will end up happening is you will start to burn out your FAST members, reduce participation and then have the scanner listeners whom will only report once they know there is a incident taking place. Much of what takes place with many departments with AFA's. It would be strong for a while I bet, but sooner or later it will wear thin, especially if you look at a structural related incident compared to actually fire is probably less then 5 and even possibly less then 1%. You will also, tend to dispatch all structural related calls as "possible structure fire," instead of odor of smoke, smoke on the ?rd,?th floor and such. Do you put a FAST on standby for those too? Your looking at nearly 300 times in Peekskill, more then that in Mohegan.

Also, Mohegan is huge, The City of Peekskill is approx. 4.1 sq. miles, not that big.

[Guest DFFD227]

You brought up a great point! Remember back in Late Augest, Bedford Hills was dispatched to an outside smoke investigation at around 10:30 AM?? Well, they pulled up and found a worker. Actually it was really funny, At the time I was working, and my partner said to me after the tones went off "Ahhh, B.S. Call"...Let me tell you, we were both surprised to hear that it was a worker.

[Guest DFFD227]

Today at 830 hrs Village of Hastings got dispatched to a report of a possible structure fire. RIGHT after he dispatched HFD, the dispatcher called DF Police, and DFPD dispatched a FASTeam to respond to the scene before any hastings unit was on the scene to give the report. Hastings got on scene, and it was a false alarm and canceled DFFD. But I gotta admit, I was quietly applauding under my covers, and then fell back to sleep.

[CM36 4]

I feel that if a department is dispatched to a working fire then the neighboring department should be dispatched as the fast team becuase thier is nothing wrong with having some extar man power and extar equipment to.

[mfc2257 464]

It's not that a FAST team needs to be dispatched to every call where the word "fire" is used. Dryer fire, oven fire, chimney fire etc, leave the FAST team in bed. This is what we have dispatchers for to ask the caller questions.... "Ok sir I have dispatched the fire department, now exactly where is the fire... In the bedroom.. oh and in the hall, ok sir I am going to alert more units, can you hold on a moment."

Essentially, when a caller states "my home is on fire"

Or a passer by states that "there is fire coming out the window"

It's safe to say that the first few minutes of a fire are the most dangerous. We need to rely on the dispatchers to take the calls and determine the severity of the fire so that if a FAST team is needed that they are added to the box in a timely mannor.

Another problem is Police dispatching instead of the county. The county gets paid to do it (I know their system leaves much to be desired) so they should be taking the calls for fire dispactch. If the PD take the call and dispatches, the callers tone of voice and the specific words that they use are lost by the time the 60 control dispatcher starts needing to coordinate a mutual aid effort. Had 60 Control talked to the initial caller there is a better line of communication as to what is going on. Instead when the DP does it, they are trying to coordinate a fire/ems response (something they really aren't trained or paid to do) AND get their own cars to the scene as well.

[x635 4,066]

I feel that if a department is dispatched to a working fire then the neighboring department should be dispatched as the fast team becuase thier is nothing wrong with having some extra man power and extra equipment too.

If it's a daytime call, where resources are already limited or may be tied up elsehwere, yes it can be a problem as it strikes out several firefighters and equipment in your own community, as well as lowers first-due arrival times. It's nice to have that extra there, but only if that extra is available without costing elswhere.

IToday at 830 hrs Village of Hastings got dispatched to a report of a possible structure fire. RIGHT after he dispatched HFD, the dispatcher called DF Police, and DFPD dispatched a FASTeam to respond to the scene before any hastings unit was on the scene to give the report. Hastings got on scene, and it was a false alarm and canceled DFFD.  

#1. Although it cuts out the "middleman", I notice HFD contacted DFPD directly instead of requesting mutual aid through 60 Control.

Although this does save a small amount of time at this point, it costs time later. I feel 60 Control should be notified when units are responding mutual aid. That way, when Hasting's FD Chief gets on the air to request further units, they (Dispatchers) have a clue as to what's going on and where, and times not lost during that request over the air. It also gives the dispatchers a better picture of resource allocation, that way if Irvington or Ardsley strikes a job, they know that Hastings and Dobbs Ferry are already tied up, and to go with the next line MA.

#2 I also noticed that PD requested right away without FD request. Is this Hasting's normal protocol to dispatch FAST upon receipt of a structure-type response, or was this done due to the winter-weather conditions that would have signifcantly delayed a normal response?

[Guest DFFD227]

Normally no, DFFD has responded to Hastings numerous times for FAST responses...but I heard Hastings get toned out twice, and 1 minute later my plectron was going off for FAST Response. I thought that was suprising.

[1075thebox 1]

WHAT THE HECK?

PURCHASE HAD A FIRE IN AN OCCUPIED COLLEGE DORM BUILDING.

SURE THE FIRE WAS SMALL, BUT SMOKE WAS EVERYWHERE!

WHY IS IT THAT THEY DIDN'T CALL FOR MORE RESOURCES FASTER?

WHY IN THE WORLD DID THEY CALL WEST HARRISON'S ENGINE, WHICH WAS ON STANDBY, IN AS A FAST? ARE THEY ALL TRAINED IN FAST OPERATIONS?

THIS IS ALMOST AS BAD AS ONE DEPARTMENT IN WESTCHESTER THAT RECENTLY TOOK 40 MINUTES FROM THE TIME OF ARRIVAL TO CALL FOR A FAST!!!!

WAKE UP WESTCHESTER!!! STOP PUTTING YOUR OWN IN HARM'S WAY - THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS!!! ](*,) [-X #-o

[Guest DFFD227]

Last night, when Purchase first got on the scene,I think they still didn't know what they got. Thats why they were hesitant to call for Mutual Aid. But Obviously if you see a lot of smoke, there is fire causing it! Be smart, and send the FAST out! It took W Harrison several minutes To assemble. I'm not bashing, im just putting it out there what I heard last night. ](*,)

[BFD1054 1,552]

On the topic of FASTeams....i have previously stated my feelings of if/when a FASTeam should be dispatched. I have said that it would be great to at least start a FASTeam to thier HQ to assemble this way if they are needed, at least they just have to get on the rig and respond, saving about 5-10 minutes if they had to wait to assemble. We (Buchanan) were very lucky the other night for the 10-75 at 142 Bannon Ave. Croton is our first-due FASTeam unless otherwise noted. I am not sure if they were at HQ for training or what, but i know many of the Teams members were at E119 (FAST Eng) HQ's. This was excellent because i was told that from the time of dispatch to the time responding was something like 47 seconds and they were on-scene probably 5 minutes later. We have never had a problem with Crotons FAST, because they are "fast" and they get the job done! Weather it was coincidence or not, they got there real quick and actually ended up going to work, hence Peekskills Team being called. But the majority of the time, this isn't so. Team members are usually not all at thier HQ when they are called and can take a descent amount of time to assemble. FASTeam response to the tri-village of Buchanan, Montrose & Verplanck, who are all covered by Crotons Team, is always rapid. However, i still believe that it would be beneficial to everyone to at least start them to thier HQ on a reported structure fire to be at the ready. The morning of the Buchanan fire, Crotons FASTeam was called to Ossining for a 10-75 and i believe either 10-20'd or cancelled en-route. Ossining has been a real busy department as far as structure fires this past year, and many times the fire is small and k/d quickly and the FASTeam is no longer needed. My point is, Ossining seems to have the right idea in that they are not shy when it comes to calling the FASTeam and they won't hesitate, thats the way it should be! Hell, lets face it, the FASTeam is to benefit us, the firefighters, so why should there be any hesitation in calling them? I know plenty of guys from different FASTeams and i have never heard any of them complain about getting cancelled en-route or whatever, they'd rather get the heads-up and start out because they understand that their job is to help us if needed. Its simple, FASTeams are essential on any fire scene, especially in the first few minutes, so lets wake up and protect our own! BFD1054