Education for officer spots...

[Faded Soul 6]

Okay... so how important is it that the ones that lead any department- paid or volunteer have some form of higher education. More importantly a degree in some field of study? No matter 2 or 4 yr, masters or a PHD, just to have a broader education about things? Couldn't hurt to have a degree from an accredited college. It's very obvious that at times the ones who lead are not the most brilliant, nor the best tempered, nor do they have the greatest people skills. Along with fire fighter courses and what not... should they have a degree? Should it be enough that we as a community ask that our volunteer FF or our paid FF just have a HS Diploma? or GED? Should we as a community be able to expect more from out FFs- paid or volunteer? Should the same be applied for EMT/Medics/Cops? Or is it just enough to send the paid FF to the academy? the volunteer ff to the fire fighter 1s and 2s and whatever else they see fit to train in? Should the leaders that lead depts make efforts to further their education outside of the fire field?

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" The expedient thing and the right thing are seldom the same thing."

" The truth hurts... but it's still the Truth."

These are Faded Soul's personal opinions. No one elses.

[firecapt32 282]

Maybe faded soul finally has somthing to say lets no berate them.

As stated in the past we in the fire service are held to a higher standard then the general public. In the medical field in the state of New york you must renew your certificiation every few years--or at least prove that you are current with new standards and procedures. That my friends isnt a bad idea

keep the good post coming faded soul your on a roll

Edited June 23, 2009 by firecapt32

[Faded Soul 6]

I think some people feel that the education ends when they get the diploma, degree, certificate or the sheep skin in any given field. But... fields constantly change, knowledge needs to be expanded upon. One needs to know how to deal with people- on any level, and they need to know that people can sniff out the lies, smart people will inevitably find your lies and weaknesses. Standards of education should be re-evaluated. Not just firematic... not just CMEs and emt/medic credits, not just night courses for PD. I think having a better understanding of basic things, and if you can't find them- at least know where to look and how to apply that knowledge makes for a better leader. And the simple three words work also... 'I don't know.' and when to say that, makes a great leader.

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The expedient thing and the right thing are seldom the same thing.

The truth hurts... but it's still the truth.- JPR

[Guest]

I think some people feel that the education ends when they get the diploma, degree, certificate or the sheep skin in any given field. But... fields constantly change, knowledge needs to be expanded upon. One needs to know how to deal with people- on any level, and they need to know that people can sniff out the lies, smart people will inevitably find your lies and weaknesses. Standards of education should be re-evaluated. Not just firematic... not just CMEs and emt/medic credits, not just night courses for PD. I think having a better understanding of basic things, and if you can't find them- at least know where to look and how to apply that knowledge makes for a better leader. And the simple three words work also... 'I don't know.' and when to say that, makes a great leader.

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The expedient thing and the right thing are seldom the same thing.

The truth hurts... but it's still the truth.- JPR

Yep, you are on a roll...

What else ya got?

[Guest Keith00923]

I agree on the fact having the education and the classes are good in the long run for becoming a officer but it is also in the qualities of the man/girl. if the firefighter has all of the classes and education thats good but they still have to have the qualities that it takes to be a good leader.

[firecapt32 282]

do we think good leaders are made??or born??

[JimmyPFD 11]

I think some people feel that the education ends when they get the diploma, degree, certificate or the sheep skin in any given field. But... fields constantly change, knowledge needs to be expanded upon. One needs to know how to deal with people- on any level, and they need to know that people can sniff out the lies, smart people will inevitably find your lies and weaknesses. Standards of education should be re-evaluated. Not just firematic... not just CMEs and emt/medic credits, not just night courses for PD. I think having a better understanding of basic things, and if you can't find them- at least know where to look and how to apply that knowledge makes for a better leader. And the simple three words work also... 'I don't know.' and when to say that, makes a great leader.

Regarding promotion and leadership: Coming from a Civil Service background; I lean towards what my experience has been. That being said; I like what the state does within my agency. First, you must have the basic knowledge and credentials of those you will be leading. That in part comes directly from your education, (in the fire service; that should come from specific training). Additionally x-amount of years in the subordinate title; so you know the job of those you are leading. There might be more prerequisite courses beyond what brought you into the first title, (IE-further down the FEMA ICS series, Codes, whatever.) before you can sit for an exam based on leadership decisions and scenarios specific to new position. When they do get the promotion; probation should last a year, and the original line is protected to be stepped back into during this time for whatever reason; (like not having the sense to say, "I don't know"). Here is where I break from Civil Service... consider the top 25% to be eligible. Now measure the individuals, not their scores.

Too much emphasis is placed on the scores.

Continuing Education ends there with the Civil Service title I have. Now, Board Certification... We have to demonstrate a good amount of continuing education, (50% general and 50% in the specialty field) to maintain it.

I just added this edit to simply say: Yes education is important but you need to demonstrate effective leadership to keep the job. If not, "I am sorry but you failed to meet the requirements of probationary employment in this position."

Edited June 23, 2009 by JimmyPFD

[AFS1970 504]

I do not think that a college degree is the only answer, but it is certainly not a bad thing to have. However there are people out there who have never been to college and have a great deal more life experience than those in the same age group that did go on to higher education. How about factoring in Military Service, is it better, worse or just different than college as far as officer training goes?

Try picking between three candidates (These are more or less real people I know) for an officer's position:

Candidate 1: Firefighter 1, 4 Years in the Military, No College.

Candidate 2: Fire Officer 2, No Military Service, No College.

Candidate 3: Firefighter 2, No Military, Bachelors in Fire Science.

Each one of these candidates brings different pluses and minuses to the table. I intentionally left out two key factors, age and time in the fire service. I don't think that a solid choice can be made based only on education. Experience and attitude must be weighed into the mix too. I also think that we place too much emphasis on certifications, as we have all met people that have a wall of paperwork and are not really firefighters.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I am a firm believer and supporter of higher education for fire officers...you can tell an educated person versus a non educated person more time then not. With that said...education helps to build good managers. The problem is good fire officers have to be both manager and leader. FireCapt are leaders born or bred...I used to believe born..however I have seen in the Marine Corps how they build leaders. I for one am pursuing my degree one step at a time with the goal of a masters degree. Will that help me...in the fire service..it might..but in my post fire service life definitely.

The 14 leadership traits of the Marine Corps help point out what a good leader should be.

[TSull 33]

This is an interesting topic. It all comes down to what the local authority (town boards, fire commissioners, independent fire companies) wants to require their fire service leaders to possess. While you can not pump certificates through a fire hose I believe that in this day and age to tell someone that if they want to be leading a million dollar a year business (and that is what a lot of fire departments in the area are) that they should have Fire Officer I & II, Fire Instructor I, and some college or a degree, along with X number of years experience at each rank (no rank jumping), that should be the direction we should be going in.

Also, unfortunately, in the litigation happy society we live in, if something tragic happens on a scene and the qualifications of the Incident Commander gets called into question in court, wouldn't you want to be able to say that "through my training and experience, this is why I made the decisions I made".

I encourage everyone to attend as much training as possible. Even if you only learn one thing in the class, it is one thing you didn't know before.

[TSull 33]

I am a firm believer and supporter of higher education for fire officers...you can tell an educated person versus a non educated person more time then not. With that said...education helps to build good managers. The problem is good fire officers have to be both manager and leader. FireCapt are leaders born or bred...I used to believe born..however I have seen in the Marine Corps how they build leaders. I for one am pursuing my degree one step at a time with the goal of a masters degree. Will that help me...in the fire service..it might..but in my post fire service life definitely.

The 14 leadership traits of the Marine Corps help point out what a good leader should be.

JJ DID TIE BUCKLE