Tower Ladder Tips At Dwelling Fire

[x635 4,066]

From FirefighterCloseCalls.com

TOWER LADDER TIPS AT DWELLING FIRE

Tuesday, June 16, 2009- Last night at a structure fire, Windsor Locks (CT) Firefighters had a Close Call shortly after heavy rain had moved through their area. Their tower ladder "tipped" due to the soggy conditions and the sidewalk slowly collapsed under the weight. Fortunately no one was hurt and the WL members were able to get out and onto the roof for safety.

REMINDER REGARDING OURIGGER PLACEMENT-THANKS TO THE CHIEF OF THE WLFD FOR THE INFO

ADDITIONAL PHOTOS: http://firefighterclosecalls.com/fullstory.php?87903

[KC2OBW 1]

Not for nothing, but I would never put a outrigger on softground, thank god no one was hurt.

[lad12derff 283]

Any idiot can see the outriggers are not on the sidewalk. If you are mess up you should man up not make excuses

[99subi 121]

outriggers on grass, what did they expect....

[IzzyEng4 427]

The forums up here in CT has been really active on this topic and the Windors Locks FD personnel have been more than willing to discuss this. Unfortunately there has been a lot of Monday Night Quarterbacking on this topic especially by those who have no clue on apparatus operations.

What had happened was the rig was set up and the driver had apparently thought he had the side stabilizer pad on the sidewalk. Well obviously he did not and after a while the stabilizer (which the pad was mostly on the grassy area between the sidewalk and the street) began to sink in. One picture I have seen shows the edge of the sidewalk where the pad was was cracked and broken. The tower, which is 95 ft. Aerialscope, was needed to get to the roof for ventilation and fire attack. Unfortunatley this occured and also the driver was a veteran driver of (20+ years with the department and apparatus operations). This goes to show you that anyone can make a mistake no matter how many years of experience you have. This was just bad apparatus placement for the conditions on the firegoround. Things happen and no one is perfect.

[lad12derff 283]

The forums up here in CT has been really active on this topic and the Windors Locks FD personnel have been more than willing to discuss this. Unfortunately there has been a lot of Monday Night Quarterbacking on this topic especially by those who have no clue on apparatus operations.

What had happened was the rig was set up and the driver had apparently thought he had the side stabilizer pad on the sidewalk. Well obviously he did not and after a while the stabilizer (which the pad was mostly on the grassy area between the sidewalk and the street) began to sink in. One picture I have seen shows the edge of the sidewalk where the pad was was cracked and broken. The tower, which is 95 ft. Aerialscope, was needed to get to the roof for ventilation and fire attack. Unfortunatley this occured and also the driver was a veteran driver of (20+ years with the department and apparatus operations). This goes to show you that anyone can make a mistake no matter how many years of experience you have. This was just bad apparatus placement for the conditions on the firegoround. Things happen and no one is perfect.

There is nothing to Monday morning quarterback here. The driver set up the truck and pinned the jacks. If the pads and jacks were not 100 percent on the sidewalk it's operator error in my book. 20 minutes or 20 years you are still the one who is in control of the truck.

Edited June 17, 2009 by lad12derff

[IzzyEng4 427]

There is nothing to Monday morning quarterback here. The driver set up the truck and pinned the jacks. If the pads and jacks were not 100 percent on the sidewalk it's operator error in my book. 20 minutes or 20 years you are still the one who is in control of the truck.

lad12derff,

First off I am describing what had happened and the quarterbacking was on the other site, not on here and definatley not accusing you of it, nor anyone else here.

Second, yes the driver made an error, that is not being questioned. He knows he made an error and he admits he did, he's not saying he didn't or making any excuses.

Third, this is an obvious learning tool / reminder about apparaus placement and it should be never overlooked. The brown stuff hits the osculating / rotating metal blades a lot of the time but you should always look and not make any assumptions.

Now we all know that all fire apparatus vehicles especially aerials need to be on stable ground and should never leave the road. Aerial devices should not be set up on soft ground or on driveways / parking lots that are not road rated. That is a given when anyone takes andy aerial operations training. This was an obvious oversite and the driver is very lucky that the truck did not fully tip over and someone got hurt. There are more pictures that are not posted on FFCloseCalls.com of this incident and how the tower ladder was set up. This is a case of simple complaintency that could have gone very wrong and could have ended with different results.

[lad12derff 283]

OK so lets learn from this. Midship towerladders should be positioned 15 to 20 degrees away from the building. This will clear the cab of the truck from being hit by the boom of the ladder while covering the most of its scrub area. This is very important at taxpayer fires. The truck should take up as much of the road as needed and not worry about the engines or rescues. As we always say you can stretch hose but you can't stretch the ladder. Had this operator did this his jacks would have been in the street and not on the grass. You should position the truck at every call as though it is going to be used. Front seat and jumpseat members should spot the rig and go to work.

Edited June 17, 2009 by lad12derff

[Guest]

It was a 95ft at a PD fire. If you cant reach the roof from the street, which would have been another 3ft from where it is currently postioned why even use the boom. Just get a portable!

Edited June 17, 2009 by roofsopen

[IzzyEng4 427]

Another thing to learn form this, and I'm going off the "can't strech the aerial ladder" you need to know how far your objective is in comparison to how far the reach of your aerial device is. "Is the aerial going to make the objective?" should be the question in mind when pulling up on scene by the driver, the rig's crew and also the OIC.

Just because the truck is labled "95 feet" or "105 feet" that is the working height, not the aerial's reach. The reach may be 5 to 10 feet shorter than what the working height is (at 80 degrees). As an apparatus driver you need to remember this and also too those firefighters who are operating on the truck company need to also help set up and know thier rig's limitations.

[rbuchjr 0]

lad12derff,

First off I am describing what had happened and the quarterbacking was on the other site, not on here and definatley not accusing you of it, nor anyone else here.

Second, yes the driver made an error, that is not being questioned. He knows he made an error and he admits he did, he's not saying he didn't or making any excuses.

Third, this is an obvious learning tool / reminder about apparaus placement and it should be never overlooked. The brown stuff hits the osculating / rotating metal blades a lot of the time but you should always look and not make any assumptions.

Now we all know that all fire apparatus vehicles especially aerials need to be on stable ground and should never leave the road. Aerial devices should not be set up on soft ground or on driveways / parking lots that are not road rated. That is a given when anyone takes andy aerial operations training. This was an obvious oversite and the driver is very lucky that the truck did not fully tip over and someone got hurt. There are more pictures that are not posted on FFCloseCalls.com of this incident and how the tower ladder was set up. This is a case of simple complaintency that could have gone very wrong and could have ended with different results.

In a situation where you have a private dwelling fire with a driveway 500 feet long, are you guys keeping your ladder on the road?

[IzzyEng4 427]

In a situation where you have a private dwelling fire with a driveway 500 feet long, are you guys keeping your ladder on the road?

I'm not a member of that department so I cannot answer that question.

[x635 4,066]

I remembered another photo that was posted on EMTBravo.com a while back. Is this situation any different? (I'm not being sarcastic, I am actually asking a question)

[lad12derff 283]

I remembered another photo that was posted on EMTBravo.com a while back. Is this situation any different? (I'm not being sarcastic, I am actually asking a question)

Of course it's different. Thats the great Kentland, the same guys turning off SCBA bottles in jobs of other "BROTHERS". Sure wish I could hang with them they are really salty.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Of course it's different. Thats the great Kentland, the same guys turning off SCBA bottles in jobs of other "BROTHERS". Sure wish I could hang with them they are really salty.

DOH!!! You went there!!! lol

[antiquefirelt 994]

Never say never. Putting the jacks on the grass may not be the first choice, but it certainly is better than not doing it if the aerial is needed. As is shown above one thing you can do if you must put the jacks on soft ground is use the larger plates. Short of the big city I'm not sure why any tower would have oversized plates for these situations.

Clearly the Kentland guys, for all they're BS bravado, do know a thing or two. I'm not a fan of the great 33 but PG Co. is pretty good at aggressive truck placement. If you've not worked off or operated an Aerialscope you'll be surprised the first time you see the outboard jack come off the ground while on hard pavement, something few other MM towers do on a regular basis.

[lad12derff 283]

Cribbing is another option for making a wider base or for uneven surfaces IE jack falling half on/off a curb and you make up the difference. As Izzy said before the fan is always rotating it's just waiting for the next guy to throw the brown stuff. Your training and experience determine where it lands.

[16fire5 693]

Cribbing is another option for making a wider base or for uneven surfaces IE jack falling half on/off a curb and you make up the difference. As Izzy said before the fan is always rotating it's just waiting for the next guy to throw the brown stuff. Your training and experience determine where it lands.

There are times when putting the tormentors down on pavement is not in the cards. While the 15 degrees away from the building is prefered on solid ground when setting up in lots and other softer ground its probably best to place the rig as close to perpendicular to the building as possible. Backing in is best because you don't have to operate over the cab. The sidewalk is never a guarantee either. Know your response area many buildings in the city and I'm sure elsewhere the basement or parking garage or utility vaults extend from the building under the sidewalk.

[wraftery 1,275]

Look just under the front bumper.

Those are the jackpads for the front jacks.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Questions: How many personel are recommended for proper placement, setting up and deployment of a TL?

I'm sure Brother Barry will be able to give us the complete rundown of manufacturer recommends, plus NFPA if he desires.

Certainly at a minimum (below Standards of course, but that's the reality for many members out there) a Chauffer and a step-man. Better yet, an officer, chauffer and a step-man. Best of all, PROPER STAFFING.

Why is the apparatus operator the only person being put under a microscope for this incident?

Did an officer or ff help guide the rig into proper placement, under the durress of a working fire? Or was everybody too busy making a bee line for their 4.5's and the first in hose line? (saw that too many times in my career, and admittedly did it myself on occassion)

I have a sneaking suspicion that this rig was undermanned when it responded to, and operated at this incident.

Furthermore, (oxymoron) 'the more the rig is understaffed', the more the calculated chance of an incident like this rising dramatically.

A Chauffer should not be expected to be solely responsible for safe POSITIONING of TL's, LT's or straight sticks. Tillers obviously have an advantage of four automatic eyeballs.

However, final determination of whether the rig is set up properly is up to the guy who places the pads, deploys the outriggers, and ultimatley sets the ladder/bucket into play; ie the Chauffer in most cases.

If it is NOT ready to go, that needs to be relayed OVER the pressure of dept. personel demanding to hurry up and get the tower set-up. If you gotta reposition, you have to make it known and get some fireground support for same.

The hardest time to get through to a brother and make him/her understand your needs as the equipment operator, is during the begining drama of a working fire, when he is tunnel-thinking usually about one assignment.

Plus overhead wires play such a drastic impediment to Westchester, and CT. truck deployment.

An I.C. should be careful to keep this on his COAL WAS WEALTH OVERLOAD of pre-attack information, imho.

I'm happy for these guys that the bucket looks like it landed on the corner of the fire building preventing further damage or injury. Learn and move on. It's harder to do when a guy rides an aerial all the way down to the ground; and we've all seen that nightmare.

Stay safe.

Edited June 18, 2009 by efdcapt115

[LED138 10]

I agree that ladder placement is key and that a good chauffer needs to know his equipment. An excellent point was brought up about the use of cribbing. I cant upload the photo onto here, but follow the link to a fire that was in a town close to me. Notice the front of the rig. That was some good work there!

Clicky here

[eckyphats 0]

I remembered another photo that was posted on EMTBravo.com a while back. Is this situation any different? (I'm not being sarcastic, I am actually asking a question)

Alot of the apartment complexes down there ladders can not reach 2 or 3 sides of the building from the road. It is normal for a truck company (even an engine company) to go off roading for fires down there as every company has a position around the building. Coming from someone who rode a baker down there you would be suprised where some of the towers can be set up

[x129K 1,393]

The ground wont collapse under 33 until Kentland says it can...................

[Guest]

LCC made a mistake, who cares. With all the rain we have been having I wont even drive a car on grass let alone a 75,000lb towerladder. Just remember, you must have those outriggers on something substantial. You do not want to be the guy who loses a million dollar piece of steel for a few seconds of added use!

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Understood that a mistake was made, but to use the defense of I thought it was on the sidewalk. This was the chauffer side of the rig, where the controls for the outriggers are located. He was definately standing right there as the jacks went down. I got some other photos from the cfa that suggest the boom was maxed out in order to reach the house, as roofsopen suggest maybe ground ladders should of been considered in this situation. As far as setting up, a good LCC should only need 1 guy on the outboard side to spot for him, using the whole company is a waste of resources imo, those members could be used for more important things Im sure.

[capt2102 64]

I would always tell my truck guys not to even trust a sidewalk. There could only be an inch or two of concrete with no rebar in it and that could cave in under the weight of the rig. The outrigger street plates are all in their storage slots on the rig and the wheel chocks are also not used. Thankfully it didn't lay down on a power line or the outcome could be very different.

[umfd-330 8]

From looking at other pictures in web-land, it's evident the boom was left fully-extended for what appeared to be hours. The first picture was in broad daylight, and the other pictures in the evening. Somehow, a heavy-duty wrecker was used to get the scope back on all-six. My only thought is that they did not want to retract the boom for fear that the truck would slam back onto the ground and cause a bunch of structural damage.

Any ideas?

[Remember585 815]

Not speaking of this incident since I know nothing about it, but how important is it to get that aerial to the roof if it's a 1 1/2 story or 2 story private dwelling? Can't a lot of the venting be accomplished horizontally by window, gable vents or making openings in the exterior walls? Also, like others mentioned, using a portable ladder may be sufficient too. I know in our response area Truck placement is a science with all of the trees, wires, long driveways, etc. impeding our aerial access, so we make due with what we can use.

As for putting the jacks down on the grass, that's a careful decision that needs to be evaluated well. What will be gained by placing the Truck on the grass that can not be accomplished from portable ladders and/or the ground with a longer hook? If the ground is frozen, say in mid-January, it may be strong and rigid enough to work with, it's all a matter of risk vs. benefit to me.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Remember585

[Guest Keith00923]

i agree the placement of your outriggers is very important, and also it doesn't even look like plates or cribbing was even used. If you are going to even think about placing your outrigger on grass(which im not saying that you should) a plate or cribbing would be nice to use. And i didn't read that far ahead in this but how did they get this ladder back in safely?

[capt2102 64]

They called the crew from "WRECKED" O'Hare towing from Chicago. They brought the rotator Kenworth and the three axle Mack in and put it upright.