Fire District Consolidation Opposition

[Bnechis 3,961]

ISO is one of the tops in the state.

So you are a #1 or a #2?

but their unions intent is the full collapse of the volunteer fire service.

The unions do not have to do anything, the volunteer service appears to be collapsing without any effort by the unions.

I'm not saying consolidation is never the answer, but more often than not, it's just that...not.

Can you back that up with facts or is that just your opinion? Seems to me it works very well in most of the counties and even countries that went down that road.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And on behalf of the citizens of the City of New Rochelle, I'd like to thank the firefighters there for not accepting pay for their job, oh wait...

Our citizens seem very happy with us, they keep calling 9,000 a year.

Next time you try to prove a point, try AT LEAST to be fair about it and factor in the costs of a fully paid workforce. You know as well as I do that it's more expensive to the residents of paid fire service communities than volunteer ones. Al Gore would be calling this fuzzy math....

I will be "fair" as you put it, when everyone else is. I have in the past listed what our tax roll is and how much goes to support the FD. and what the total cost of fire protection is. When you include, insurance and code enforcment our citizens pay less each year than many in communities with VFD's. and I have posted those figures before. Even after paying personnel costs our FD costs the average property owner less than $400 per year.

See Westchester vollies, a Long Island buff has your backs! I'm not a paid fireman hater whatsoever, but I take exception when someone hates on us without getting their facts straight or trying to pull the puppet strings.

Pay no attention to the Bnechis behind the curtain!!!

I am very aware of the facts and I have no problem with volunteers, I have a big problem with depts that claim to protect the community when they clearly can't or when they claim they save the community money when they are not.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Bnechis

[Bnechis 3,961]

The apparatus is only a part of the overall picture; did you factor in salaries, vacation relief, sick time, overtime, training, cost of benefits, pension contributions etc?

Not in that post, my point was how many rigs are needed and I was answering that issue. If you want me to add those costs in I'll be more than happy to compare head to head the "total" cost of fire protection, including insurance costs.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The City of New Rochelle realized over 70 years ago that the Volunteers could not provide the services needed for the ever expanding city. Up until that point the voluteers did their best, but the demands of the growth of the city far out weighed the willingness of the volunteers to provide fire coverage.

Thanks Mark.

Your explination is only partially correct. Around 1901 the volunteers requested that the city provide help to maintain the stations, rigs and horses. During the mid 1920's the Chamber of Commerce (for others here: not the FD, not the Union which had not organized yet) determined that a career staff was cheaper than the volunteers (there were over 200 at the time) after calculating the insurance savings. The CoC pushed to make it happen. In 1927 the dept switched to a 100% career dept. the volunteers got to keep the social functions, but stopped going on calls.

Note: All but one (the chief, they hired one from FDNY) of the career FF's that they hired in 1927 came from the VFD.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Sorry if this goes too far off topic, but someone noted the Fairview Fire District had 47% tax exempt properties? Are the tax exempt properties the same types exempted from standard municipal taxation? Such as churches, educational and non-profits? This is the primary reason our area (Maine, not NY) was looking to go to fire districts as these exempt properties are 33% of our tax base. So is the sole benefit of being a FPD or fire district the oversight not being municipally controlled?

[BFD1054 1,552]

Bnechis, as usual, you have posted some very accurate, not to mention interesting facts. Thank you for that. It is quite obvious that you are very educated, not just in the fire service, but in general. I thought that was interesting that when NRFD went to career staffing, all but one member came up from the vol. dept.

This issue has gone round and round plenty of times before and we've all had our opinions and thoughts. It had also gotten heated at times, but doesnt it always lol? I was glad to see that there were so many pages of responses/posts to this topic. It is a hot topic and one that wont go away for a long time. I havent been following closely and admit that i havent read ALL these posts, but many of them.

Ive stated before, i am in no way anti-career (as i have many friends who are OTJ), as i am not anti-volunteer either. Hell, id love to get on an FD job myself, but things didnt turn out that way.

I have been in the volunteer service (Fire & EMS) for about 11 years. Ive seen alot of changes both good and bad. On the bad side, i have seen way to many members come and go and volunteerism (if you will) continue to dwindle. I have seen many VFD's that are strong in the member department, but too many that are not. You may have a VFD that has an "active list" of say 50 members, but only 20 or so that are actually "active." Out of that 20, you may only have 10 or so that are the gung-ho type that make as many alarms, drills & details as possible. Can you rely on those 10 or so guys 100% of the time? No, of course not. Even if you could, those are not realistic numbers.

The volunteer rates are dropping and theres nobody to blame. It is nobody's fault, it is just life. But, we, as the volunteer fire service, owe a certain level of service and protection to our respective communities. If we can no longer maintain that level of service, then its time to do something about it. If we do not do something about it and just let it go, well then shame on us.

As for consolidation (as that is the topic at hand), i am all for it. Thats just the first baby steps for making a fire district better (hopefully). When you consolidate, you can cut back on apparatus & stations (possibly), but increase your membership, thus gaining better turn-outs for alarms. Also with consolidation, you increase the pool of which to draw officers from. I realize that this is in no way an easy, streamlined answer or solution. This is something that takes serious planning and coordination and would not happen overnight.

I have stated my feelings on consolidation in my area for quite awhile now, mostly for the reasons i listed above. I was actually talking to an older, more experienced firefighter (from another fd) about this topic the other night at training.

I will use the Tri-Village (Buchanan, Montrose & Verplanck) as an example, as it is what i am familiar with. Buchanan has (2) pumpers, (1) rescue, (2) utilities & (2) chiefs cars. Montrose has (3) pumpers, (1) tower-ladder, (1) heavy rescue, boat(s), (1) utility and (3) chiefs cars. Verplanck has (2) pumpers, (1) tower-ladder, (1) utility, (1) ambulance and (2) chiefs cars. Thats an aweful lot of apparatus when you think about it. Buchanan is roughly 2 square miles as is Verplanck and the Montrose fire district is roughly 12 or so square miles. The call volume between the 3 departments is roughly 650 calls a year. Now, keep in mind my square mileage and call volumes are approximates (off the top of my head). In my oppinion (i know they're like a-holes lol), the Tri-Village could easily be served by 3-4 pumpers, 1 ladder and 1 rescue. You could keep the couple of utilities for their various uses. As it is now, there are (7) pumpers, (2) ladders and (2) rescues (if you didnt due the math above).

If the Tri-Village were to be consolidated into one department, i can only see positive results. Again, cut down on apparatus (thus cutting fuel, maintenance and replacement costs), but increase manpower. You could also cut down on officers, but have a greater pool of which to draw officers from. We could start by keeping things the way they are, but making us one department (3 individual companies in essence). Wherever the call may be, members from all 3 "companies" could respond. So, if Montrose had 10 members, Buchanan & Verplanck each had 5, thats 20 members at a scene. That makes it better for everyone. We could set up certain alarm assignments as well. Such as any alarm at commercial buildings or schools (or whatever) would get 1&1 from Montrose and 1 pumper each from Buchanan & Verplanck (just an example).

Im sure some people will be upset with my post for whatever reasons, but they're just that, MY opinions. I was just trying to give some insight and throwing some possible answers out there.

Again, consolidation could be a very good thing for many departments in this County. However, it may not be the end-all answer to ur problems. It would be a start in the right direction though. If consolidation doesnt work and there are still manpower issues, then hey, maybe its time to look at career staffing. Each department/district is very unique and different in their own ways. Consolidation may not be the answer for all.

*My post, thoughts, comments and opinions are mine and mine only. They do NOT reflect those of my affiliated agencies.

[xchief2x 79]

very well stated Mike.

[Monty 35]

Well, now we can see what happens .... GOVERNOR PATERSON SIGNS LEGISLATION TO STREAMLINE LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND REDUCE PROPERTY TAXES

This bill will establish a single, comprehensive procedure to consolidate or dissolve several kinds of local government entities, which until now have been governed by disparate provisions of law, in order to make it easier for such governments to consolidate or dissolve. The consolidation and dissolution procedure set forth in the bill will apply to towns, villages and districts, including special districts and improvement districts.

The procedure provides for two alternative mechanisms to either consolidate or dissolve local government entities. Consolidation or dissolution may be initiated by the government entities themselves or, voters of the local government entities can submit a petition with the requisite number of signatures, which would then be the basis of further governmental action to achieve consolidation or dissolution. The consolidation or dissolution process includes the development of a plan and public hearings to maximize civic participation, as well as a referendum on the question of consolidation or dissolution in certain cases.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out on L.I. as well as Greenburgh and maybe other towns around here.

[Bnechis 3,961]

..... try to put a system on paper to protect about 50,000 people with close to 1/4 of a 7 square mile district being non-taxable government property for less than $350/year and cover about 2000 runs with a response time of 2-3 minutes for a chief/ems fly car and 5-6 minutes for an engine/ambulance. best bet is to use a pencil, because you're not going to get it done.

The whole point of this thread is how to do it. You take the 10, 20, 30 or more departments and roll them into one then the non taxables do not over burden 1 small district and each station can concentrate on the core mission of being a station and not trying to cover every potential. When you have depts in westchester that have trouble getting 1 rig to a working fire with enough members to stretch a line, why do the taxpayers there need to own 3-4 engines, 2 ladders and a rescue? Why is it that the counties in Maryland, Virginia, Florida, California, etc. do it for less than here and with more resources at the incidents (I know we have more resources parked in the barn).

when a volunteer department works efficiently, a paid system will never be the best option unless the person is across the street from the firehouse where the paid crew is in quarters and ready to roll.

I do not think you can find any career ff's who would argue that, the problem is what happens when it no longer works efficiently. What happens when they actually s[pend more money then the career dept. but still do not get out the door? And who pays when the insurance rating sucks? Who pays when 60 Control is toning out 3 & 4 depts to cover an ambulance call?

Is it true that there are 1,200 paid "housemen" "working" on long island? I guess if the services were so efficient, they would not need this.

let's call it what it is, you like your system and i like mine. if you say yours works, i'll take you at your word. when i say mine works, everyone should take me at mine. consolidation does not help long island fire departments.

Your right we should take you at your word, but, we have all read the state comptrollers reports and even if Newsday is stretching the truth (as the L.I. fire service claims) can they be 100% wrong? No one has said consolidation will help L.I. Fire Depts. The state has said it will help L.I. taxpayers.

i can see them supporting our opposition to this bill". i'm supportive of westchester departments and want everybody to have the best and safest department around. we can all see what has happened to a department up there who was once great and now struggles with failing equipment and constant budget cuts. the brothers there get my kudos for getting the job done, through all of it.

Maybe the fact that we are being taxed out of our communities has us realizing that NYS can not continue to be the highest taxed state in the country and Westchester cant continue to be the highest taxed county in NYS. Do you think that somehow money will fall out of the crooks that have been running that community will ever give the FD enough $$$. Would consolidation solve the problems there?

all i'm saying though is in a long island vollie district, if it's broken, fix it...if it can't be fixed, buy a new one. simple, done...no bs. we're safe and we have what we need to do our job.

Can you say Gordon Heights?

[JFLYNN 681]

did i say that the residents were foolish? no, i said that the bs that you spread is the reason people might make foolish uninformed decisions. have no fear though, because for every chest thumping union guy, there's some idiot thorn in your side like me who just won't let you get away with your propaganda. remember, in your words not mine, "the posts remain there for all to see." you have presented opinions and false information. try to put a system on paper to protect about 50,000 people with close to 1/4 of a 7 square mile district being non-taxable government property for less than $350/year and cover about 2000 runs with a response time of 2-3 minutes for a chief/ems fly car and 5-6 minutes for an engine/ambulance. best bet is to use a pencil, because you're not going to get it done. when a volunteer department works efficiently, a paid system will never be the best option unless the person is across the street from the firehouse where the paid crew is in quarters and ready to roll.

this is a matter of taking in personal. when are you going to get that? when you dump your uninformed comments onto this board and all the big time career guys pat each other on the backs here after each post like it's a happy ending everytime, it's rediculous. let's call it what it is, you like your system and i like mine. if you say yours works, i'll take you at your word. when i say mine works, everyone should take me at mine. consolidation does not help long island fire departments. when you start involving people like our county executive, who would rather burn to death than ever do anything for a firefighter (paid or vollie), it's terrible for the fire service. it you kill morale, you lose the best option for a cheaper and more effective fire department, a volunteer one.

i came on here because i have relatives who are paid and wear gold in westchester and i have a lot of family that were vollies there in the combo days in mount vernon, including my father. i figured, "hey, westchester is pretty close to long island, i can see them supporting our opposition to this bill". i'm supportive of westchester departments and want everybody to have the best and safest department around. we can all see what has happened to a department up there who was once great and now struggles with failing equipment and constant budget cuts. the brothers there get my kudos for getting the job done, through all of it.

all i'm saying though is in a long island vollie district, if it's broken, fix it...if it can't be fixed, buy a new one. simple, done...no bs. we're safe and we have what we need to do our job.

You have accused me of presenting "false information", and of "uninformed comments", but you haven't been able to show any of us which of my posts you are referring to, nor have you refuted any of my statements with facts...

I agree with you when you say "when a volunteer system works efficiently, a paid system will never be the best option...", of course that's true...if the service is truly "volunteer", meaning no pensions, vacations, oops I mean conventions, exorbitant "training" expenses, elaborate social clubs, oops, I mean firehouses, tax breaks, etc. etc. In other words, the people providing the service do it for free, like many of us on this board do when we volunteer for various charities....

...now we need to define "efficiently", don't we? Who gets to define "efficiently"? You? Should we all just take you at your word as you suggest?

Wait, maybe I should define "efficiently"? Oh, I forgot, I'm just a chest thumping, union, career guy who presents propoganda, false information, and uninformed comments, so I guess it shouldn't be me either....hmmmm, oh, wait, I have an idea...shouldn't we have a process whereby you, I, and anyone else who wants to gets to present their ideas and opinions and then the taxpayers can decide what their definition of efficient is and how much they are willing to pay for it? Just a thought, brother...

Now have fun hitting this curve ball out of the park. I'm sure that you will respond and perceive that your response does just that. The proof will be in the pudding though, and the proof will certainly not be the death of the volunteer fire service, IMO. There will always be a need and a place for volunteer fire departments, and as I have stated before, I am no enemy of the volunteer fire service...but change is a coming to both career and volunteer fire departments throughout NYS and the nation...regionalization and consolidation are the wave of the future, and that IMO is a very good thing. It will benefit both the public and firefighters, both career and volunteer, and the only ones who will be "hurt" are those who only care about their own egos and their own little kingdoms, who cannot demonstrably deliver cost efficient, effective fire protection and are not willing to change, because like it or not, the light has been shown on the problems, and serious change is coming.

[hudson144 150]

"Active List"??? lets worry about interior qualified! The numbers mike do make things look good,however when an incident does happen what is the numbers of the interior firefighters,don't get me wrong there is a job for everyone on the fireground but the priority is interior.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

The one thing I will say at this point is we feel strong about our system and you feel strong about yours. Our system still works....take away the LOSAP, tax breaks, 40 inch tv screens in our "club rooms"...I don't give a crap......bottom line is you still get more manpower at a working fire in the volunteer system on LI then if it were a paid county dept. Make it paid you will have less men on a rig, less firehouses with more of a distance to travel and more of an area to strip or relocate at a large scale event. Sure you save money by selling off rigs and property, but its a one time deal. Will the paid people say no raises for the next 30 years? 30 years from now you will be paying more with a paid system and less manpower then with the current volunteer system in place on LI. Should some small departments merge (the ones doing 250 alarms or less a year) with bigger districts of course, but the larger volunteer departments should not have to merge. The depts around me all do from 1500-2000......let the state watch our spending I could care less, screw dept. dinners and the like.

You always talk of the public......so in the case of housemen whats the big deal? The public doesnt care. It's the unions who object...why because it is helping the volunteer system. The public does not care that someone has the title of "houseman", as I have argued in past posts the 3 in my dept. have to makeup time if they go to a call during the day. Some of you have no idea what it takes to run a fire district, thanks to osha and the like there are always things to do for the workers. So when we go for our scba fit tests during the week at night a district houseman is doing the tests. He is there working for free, making up "alarm time" instead of making overtime, or when he is handing out gear once a month to the new members coming in, or when he gets called out at night because of a mechanical problem with a rig or building the list goes on and on. The time is all accounted for. Despite what you think these people were hired to do many many other things, but if they can hire a class A firefighter and they can respond to calls during the day its a win win situation for everyone. The member with the job does not complain, the District does not complain, the public does not complain only the unions. Why because it helps the volunteer system, if they truly had the publics interest in mind they would applaud the districts for finding a way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Want to call my dept a combination dept because we have 3 daytime class A's that can go to alarms if they are available, fine do so.

And it's interesting that there are 2 Voulunteer Dept.s in Suffolk county, where their "housemen" are members of the IAFF...hmmmm I guess as long as you pay dues they don't really care. I guess it's not the "title" they care about, just buck up your dues and we will look the other way. Maybe the "1,200 housemen will all join" If you can't beat em' join em'.

Bnechis...I think you stated once before to one of my posts you can't compare the LI voulunteer service to Westchester...whatever problems the rest of you guys have towards the system on LI it still works. When all is said and done most, if any serious consolidation will be done off the Island. The politicians who voted no were almost all from LI, they know how the system works, they are on our side for the most part. Gordon Heights was the start of all this once they merge, which they will, very few other dept.s I can see doing this...as long as the people in charge don't go crazy with spending $. Which they have not in the past years, there are other factors in place now to watch the spending. I dont know of any other community where they are calling for the merge of a fire distrcit, only the Gordon Heights case, at least on LI, and thats with all the Newsday reporting. In very old voulunteer based dept's its not going to be easy to close down the neighborhood firehouse thats been there for 100 years.

Edited June 27, 2009 by spin_the_wheel

[BFD1054 1,552]

"Active List"??? lets worry about interior qualified! The numbers mike do make things look good,however when an incident does happen what is the numbers of the interior firefighters,don't get me wrong there is a job for everyone on the fireground but the priority is interior.

Jodi...good point. As i re-read my post, i picked up on that. I was on a roll and left that out lol, but i did mean to get to it. So yes, "active list" of 50 or so, but maybe, maybe 10 or so truly interior qualified members (and even that may be a stretch).

[moggie6 54]

I hope when it comes to fire district consolidation the models down in Maryland and Virginia are followed.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Jodi...good point. As i re-read my post, i picked up on that. I was on a roll and left that out lol, but i did mean to get to it. So yes, "active list" of 50 or so, but maybe, maybe 10 or so truly interior qualified members (and even that may be a stretch).

ISO wants a minimum of 36 firefighters and 1 IC on every fire call, when you do not run with manned fire stations. Part of that is to make up for the number that are not interior and part of thet is for the delay. If you only have 50 members I suspect you will have trouble getting 36+1 to every fire call.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Hey guy, you fellas started the argument...I'm just giving you the facts. The money is "ours" as a fire district. Budgets are worked out and voted on by a 5 member Board of Fire Commissioners,

Ok lets have the facts..... Your 2009 budget is $5,006,360 ( a lot of money to say its "Free"). From the offical Budget hearing notice from your department:

NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the aforesaid budget will be presented to the residents and taxpayers of the xxxxxx Fire District and to the Board of Fire Commissioners of the xxxxxxx Fire District, for their respective consideration at this public hearing and for the purpose of considering the said budget and hearing all persons interested in the subject concerning same on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 commencing at 8:00 p.m. followed by the regular board meeting at 8:30 p.m. at the Fire District Building located at xxxxxx Avenue, xxxxxxxx, New York 00000.

30 minutes was scheduled for the community of 40,634 to spend 5 million. How many voters even knew about the hearings?

If we have a surplus, the next budget has no increase or taxes are cut.

In 2008 you had Estimated Revenues $60,000.00 and an Estimated Appropriated Unreserved Fund Balance $53.03. This was your surplus that was used to reduce the $5,006,360 2009 budget.

The residents of my fire district are extremely happy with the services they receive FOR FREE. All they pay is the shipping and handling.

$5,006,360 is not free and from your budget: 4. COMPENSATION PAID PERSONNEL $1,304,250 thats for 11 paid positions.

Also from your website:

Your Benefits As A Member:

• Retirement System

• Tax exemption for all homeowners

• Optional membership to a fitness center to keep in condition

• Being part of the largest family atmosphere imaginable

• The feeling of making a difference in someone’s personal tragedy

• Annual physical examinations

• Training at no cost gaining valuable experience in emergency services

Looks like free to me......

I am extremely comfortable calling it "our" money because the public overwhelmingly picked the people who establish the budget and we have a great relationship in our neighborhood.

How many people actually vote in your district ellections?

The NYS Comptrollers office estimates that most district have less than 2% of the registered voters actually vote.

but I am a fire chief who still feels the pulse of the membership and I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN where I came from. I still know what it is to fight for and preach safety...budgets and dollar signs are irrelevant to me. Remember the Brotherhood Chief...

Its nice to hear you have not forgotten where you came from, after all it takes many years to get the experience needed to become a chief.

Probie starting Feb. 17, 2000.

Elected 2nd Lt. in 2003

Elected 1st Lt. in 2004

Elected Capt. in 2005 and again in 2006

And in 2009 Chief.....wow 9 years.

[Bnechis 3,961]

ISO is one of the tops in the state.

Since your dept is a PPC 3 that would mean at least 239 departments in NYS are equal or better than that. Yes its a top spot. But a 3 means you scored between 70% and 79% on an open book test. When I was in school that was a C or "average grade. With the number of members and houses and rigs and budget you have you have no excuse for that score.

[JFLYNN 681]

Ok lets have the facts..... Your 2009 budget is $5,006,360 ( a lot of money to say its "Free"). From the offical Budget hearing notice from your department:

NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the aforesaid budget will be presented to the residents and taxpayers of the xxxxxx Fire District and to the Board of Fire Commissioners of the xxxxxxx Fire District, for their respective consideration at this public hearing and for the purpose of considering the said budget and hearing all persons interested in the subject concerning same on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 commencing at 8:00 p.m. followed by the regular board meeting at 8:30 p.m. at the Fire District Building located at xxxxxx Avenue, xxxxxxxx, New York 00000.

30 minutes was scheduled for the community of 40,634 to spend 5 million. How many voters even knew about the hearings?

In 2008 you had Estimated Revenues $60,000.00 and an Estimated Appropriated Unreserved Fund Balance $53.03. This was your surplus that was used to reduce the $5,006,360 2009 budget.

$5,006,360 is not free and from your budget: 4. COMPENSATION PAID PERSONNEL $1,304,250 thats for 11 paid positions.

Also from your website:

Your Benefits As A Member:

• Retirement System

• Tax exemption for all homeowners

• Optional membership to a fitness center to keep in condition

• Being part of the largest family atmosphere imaginable

• The feeling of making a difference in someone's personal tragedy

• Annual physical examinations

• Training at no cost gaining valuable experience in emergency services

Looks like free to me......

How many people actually vote in your district ellections?

The NYS Comptrollers office estimates that most district have less than 2% of the registered voters actually vote.

Its nice to hear you have not forgotten where you came from, after all it takes many years to get the experience needed to become a chief.

Probie starting Feb. 17, 2000.

Elected 2nd Lt. in 2003

Elected 1st Lt. in 2004

Elected Capt. in 2005 and again in 2006

And in 2009 Chief.....wow 9 years.

Thanks for making me smile Barry Actually I laughed out loud. I wish I had your energy to come up with all the numbers you constantly bring forward...of course, this is all no surprise at all to so many of us, but it's good, healthy fun, isn't it?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thanks for making me smile Barry Actually I laughed out loud. I wish I had your energy to come up with all the numbers you constantly bring forward...of course, this is all no surprise at all to so many of us, but it's good, healthy fun, isn't it?

Anytime Chief

He did say "you keep hanging those curveballs and i'll keep slapping them over the left field wall fella"

I never knew baseball could be so much fun..................."Beisbol been bery, bery good to me" - Chico Escuela (Garrett Morris SNL)

[Bnechis 3,961]

The one thing I will say at this point is we feel strong about our system and you feel strong about yours. Our system still works....take away the LOSAP, tax breaks, 40 inch tv screens in our "club rooms"...I don't give a crap......bottom line is you still get more manpower at a working fire in the volunteer system on LI then if it were a paid county dept. Make it paid you will have less men on a rig, less firehouses with more of a distance to travel and more of an area to strip or relocate at a large scale event. Sure you save money by selling off rigs and property, but its a one time deal.

You may not care about those things, but there are a lot of people fighting to get and keep them. No one has said that if you have sufficient manning in a VFD you should go paid. What is being said is why does everyone need to have multiple rigs and administraions and all the other things for every 1 square mile district.

The depts around me all do from 1500-2000......let the state watch our spending I could care less, screw dept. dinners and the like.

If you consider 60% are most likely EMS and another 20% (or more) are automatic alarms and then the assorted other calls, you are not left with a whole lot of fire that requires the level of spending that we are at.

You always talk of the public......so in the case of housemen whats the big deal? The public doesnt care.

The public does not know.

The member with the job does not complain, the District does not complain, the public does not complain only the unions.

Why because it helps the volunteer system, if they truly had the publics interest in mind they would applaud the districts for finding a way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Want to call my dept a combination dept because we have 3 daytime class A's that can go to alarms if they are available, fine do so.

Actually the reason why the unions have a problem is these housemen do not get the protection that civil service affords, they do not get the pension, and they are not required to have the hire level of training that is mandated in General Municipal Law. The NYSPFFA has fought very hard to guarantee these protections. Also the reason that civil service laws were developed in NYS was to prevent the hiring based on nepotism, which is a major problem in the depts I have been to.

And it's interesting that there are 2 Voulunteer Dept.s in Suffolk county, where their "housemen" are members of the IAFF...hmmmm I guess as long as you pay dues they don't really care. I guess it's not the "title" they care about, just buck up your dues and we will look the other way. Maybe the "1,200 housemen will all join" If you can't beat em' join em'.

But they are not IAFF "Firefighters" are they? The IAFF also represents Non-Fire EMS and DIspatchers, if it does not conflict with a firefighters local. So are these 2 depts hiring "housemen" or EMT's & Dispatchers?

Bnechis...I think you stated once before to one of my posts you can't compare the LI voulunteer service to Westchester...whatever problems the rest of you guys have towards the system on LI it still works. When all is said and done most, if any serious consolidation will be done off the Island. The politicians who voted no were almost all from LI, they know how the system works, they are on our side for the most part.

The politicians know that the volunteers will work together to throw them out if they do anything to upset the current system. Politicians are rarely on "your" side, they are looking out for themselves. I am sure you are correct that very few VFD's on L.I. will be affected, unless the economy continues to stay down......if 2 or 3 years from know we are no better off, lots of people in NY will be screeming to cut the cost of ALL gov. services.

[gamewell45 258]

Your Benefits As A Member:

• Retirement System

• Tax exemption for all homeowners

• Optional membership to a fitness center to keep in condition

• Being part of the largest family atmosphere imaginable

• The feeling of making a difference in someone's personal tragedy

• Annual physical examinations

• Training at no cost gaining valuable experience in emergency services

Looks like free to me......

Would it be more palatable to you if we were to change the title from volunteer to "under compensated firefighter"?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Thanks for making me smile Barry Actually I laughed out loud. I wish I had your energy to come up with all the numbers you constantly bring forward...of course, this is all no surprise at all to so many of us, but it's good, healthy fun, isn't it?

I agree he spends way to much time searching this stuff out, but it does get the blood flowing dont it!

[hudson144 150]

Barry- if this all goes through, how will it effect other depts that are city run? A dept who still runs with 2 man engine companys with one of the heaviest workloads in the county? A dept who last yr responded to approx 4000 runs with 50+ working fires? A dept who still just sqeaks by when it comes to a 1 room contents fire. Maybe the adminstration should be looking to change the dept to a fire district ? In my 21 yrs there no mayor has thought to try to increase the manpower from 144 / the powers to be, Fire commissioner Chief have tried but its a dead end and its stops at city hall. If a change is made to a fire district how much different can it be? Do you charge each home a certain amount? Commercial structures ? etc. As I post this I wonder who has the biggest fire district in NYS? Are there any citys in NYS that are fire districts?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Would it be more palatable to you if we were to change the title from volunteer to "under compensated firefighter"?

Yes

[Bnechis 3,961]

I agree he spends way to much time searching this stuff out, but it does get the blood flowing dont it!

It takes very little time to search the net particularly if you know where to look.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

One thing the Volunteer Depts do have is the ability to cut costs if you think the spending is to much...carrer depts...not much room. I was looking at the Greenburgh study the average pay is over $115,000 for all 3 paid depts. This will only go up....forever..it will never go down. like I said above 30 years from now where will we be? I dont understand why you are so against LOSAP or tax savings for under compensated firefighters. Even with these "perks" it's still cheaper in the long run, at least compared to these 3 depts. What size are those districts, populations served? How many automatic alarms do they go to? Any ambulance calls? What are the run #'s for the 3? How many Workers?

That study also seems like it is leaving the Volunteer depts. alone as they are cheaper to have them, it's the paid depts. that are costing alot. Hey maybe Im wrong this is your area. Another thing I noticed that it stated next to education costs fire protection was second highest. On LI there are many many taxes higher then the fire protection tax. I must note Gordon Heights is an exception.

Edited June 28, 2009 by spin_the_wheel

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry- if this all goes through, how will it effect other depts that are city run? A dept who still runs with 2 man engine companys with one of the heaviest workloads in the county? A dept who last yr responded to approx 4000 runs with 50+ working fires? A dept who still just sqeaks by when it comes to a 1 room contents fire.

City's are not covered in this legislation. But hang on...the Gov. has a plan to cut the amount of money cities spend....this should help convince many that regionalization is the only way to survive.

Maybe the adminstration should be looking to change the dept to a fire district ?

Its not allowed under current City Laws in NYS

In my 21 yrs there no mayor has thought to try to increase the manpower from 144 / the powers to be, Fire commissioner Chief have tried but its a dead end and its stops at city hall.

My understanding is the MVFD is limited to that number by city charter. It was written in the 1950's to protect the volunteers (which are now gone). To change it you will need to go to charter review, which no strong mayor will ever do, because he will lose power.

If a change is made to a fire district how much different can it be? Do you charge each home a certain amount? Commercial structures ? etc. As I post this I wonder who has the biggest fire district in NYS? Are there any citys in NYS that are fire districts?

It can be drimatically better because the elected officials are only responsible for fire (& often/sometimes EMS) the District sets a budget and the Communities Tax assesser collects the amount based on the current tax roll. The biggest district cover towns like Eastchester and a number on Long Island. There are no citys that are fire districts.

The consolidation study of 10 depts in Westchester is completed and will be released to the public/press on July 1. This study looks at 10 departments, EFD, FFD, HFD, GFD, LFD, MVFD, NRFD, PFD, PMFD & SFD (the 10 career depts in southern Westchester) and the intent is how do we meet NFPA1710 (3&1 on every rig, engine in 4min or less, 1st alarm of 16 ffs [we did 22]). This answers all of the manpower issues we collectively have at a price that is competative to what we are paying now.

[Bnechis 3,961]

One thing the Volunteer Depts do have is the ability to cut costs if you think the spending is to much...carrer depts...not much room.

That is assuming the VFD has a real budget to cut (many of the island have very minimal) and how many are willing to cut it.

I was looking at the Greenburgh study the average pay is over $115,000 for all 3 paid depts. This will only go up....forever..it will never go down. like I said above 30 years from now where will we be?

There was a time when every dept in Westchester was 100% volunteer, but in most cases thats long ago and unlikely to return. These 3 depts have slowly moved from vol to combo. The costs were negociated by the union and the district. THis is no different than Nassau & Suffolk PD's getting incredible pay after lots of negociating.

I dont understand why you are so against LOSAP or tax savings for under compensated firefighters. Even with these "perks" it's still cheaper in the long run, at least compared to these 3 depts.

Because there are no real requirements for them. We have depts. that allow you to have minimal training, exterior only, and respond to the fire house after the rigs go inservice all ok. none of this is fire protection. Also and more importantly the way it was sold. I would have very little problem if when the depts. push for it they said: "This is to reward our members for volunteering" but they told the taxpayers that this was for recruitment and retention and that if they did not vote for it there taxes would go up by millions as they would have to hire career ff's.

I have asked many times (here and to the LOSAP services) if there is any proof that this actually increases the number of volunteers and no one has ever answered. The NYS Comptroller also asked the question, and he also released a report that claimed most of the funds were under funded when proposed (to convince voters it was cheaper than it really was) and that in 30 years every community was going to get hit with a big bill that they will have to pay even if the VFD no longer is there.

Now I will ask again has any dept. with LOSAP seen a significant (you define that) increase in manpower (particularly of interior firefighters) since getting LOSAP, particularly one that lasts more than a year or two after it goes into effect. The state #'s as reported by OFPC indicate a 10% decline in the past 2-3 years.

In one Westchester District non dept. members (friends of mine) were threatened about voting against LOSAP, It past and the dept 6 years later still can not cover an automatic alarm

That study also seems like it is leaving the Volunteer depts. alone as they are cheaper to have them, it's the paid depts. that are costing alot. Hey maybe Im wrong this is your area. Another thing I noticed that it stated next to education costs fire protection was second highest. On LI there are many many taxes higher then the fire protection tax.

They were left alone because the volunteer depts are municipal (village) depts. and the law does not allow for consolidating them under this new legislation. The villages could be desolved cutting 6 police depts, 6 DPW's , and 6 villages administrations, but that would elliminate the town supervisors political base, so we cant go there. The village could also choise to get rid of the FD, but then the volunteers would get the village mayors/boards voted out.

I have a number of questions about the financals and the biggest is that the FD cost more than the PD, so they claim that maybe the FD's should be cut. The Police chief has always complained that he is short about 80 officers. maybe if the town staffed its services properly then the FD would not be #2.

[helicopper 1,050]

Your Benefits As A Member:

• Retirement System

• Tax exemption for all homeowners

• Optional membership to a fitness center to keep in condition

• Being part of the largest family atmosphere imaginable

• The feeling of making a difference in someone's personal tragedy

• Annual physical examinations

• Training at no cost gaining valuable experience in emergency services

Looks like free to me......

Would it be more palatable to you if we were to change the title from volunteer to "under compensated firefighter"?

It would be far less hypocritical.

You know it amazes me how everyone is sandbagging their firehouse aprons preparing for a fight when not one person has said their goal is to eliminate volunteers and/or go to a completely paid department - anywhere. I will again highlight my point (I speak only for myself) - there are HUNDREDS of independent fire departments on Long Island (and countless others but the current illustration has been LI) that could save millions of dollars by simply consolidating their ADMINISTRATIVE and MANAGEMENT functions (read contracts, purchasing, insurance, administrative, etc.). The OPERATIONAL change(s) would be negligible. Nobody is advocating closing firehouses or reducing apparatus OPERATIONALLY though you'd need far fewer spare pieces of apparatus through such an arrangement, another way to save.

It would also mean that firefighters would have a higher call volume to respond to because instead of responding in their 1-2 square mile area, they'd have the opportunity to respond anywhere in the enlarged district.

How is this a bad thing? If the public was properly educated on the subject don't you think they'd favor paying less in taxes while receiving the same or better service?

[helicopper 1,050]

On the subject of hypocrisy, let's talk about "housemen". Are these not simply firefighters who are working for the fire district in another job title to avoid the requirements of NYS Civil Service Law and General Municipal Law for training, etc.?

Can a non-FF be hired as a "houseman"?

Do they have to punch out when a call comes in (this is the rumor that I've heard - please correct me if I'm wrong)?

Why not just hire "firefighters" and make it a combination department?

Before anyone gets on their soapbox, please note that I'm not a firefighter or an IAFF member. I'm a taxpayer!