Fire District Consolidation Opposition

[DCJPells 29]

Unless there is more involved then stated, it seems like the only state certificates received from this academy is FF I, FF II, Haz-Mat Ops, and FF Survival.

JBJ

Is there more that is needed for a new member?

Also it’s funny how things progress. In NFPA and OSHA, there is no mention of hours. It is you shall be taught and able to perform A,B,C, etc.

New York State took those and came up with two training levels, Volunteer and Paid.

Volunteer it is 15 hours initial and 8 hours annual (Yes those are the real numbers)

Paid it is 229 and 100.

These are drastically different and as such, Jim Burns pushed to have training changed when we went from the original training programs to the FF2000 (with testing (performance standard). When the FF 2000 came out, it was broken down into Basic, Intermediate and Advance to compromise. FF Basic only got you on a fireground, FF Intermediate an interior member and FF Advance a Leader?. Of course many places, Basic was the only thing used so again it was changed to the present which emulates NFPA and most of the rest of the country.

Hours are not the specifics as much as performance should be but you have to cover everybody and have course outlines as well.

[Bnechis 3,961]

One other thing...JMO I think to much is made over the "hours" of the courses, when it should be the tests and the practical exams. A career F/F does not set foot in a firehouse in most places untill he finishes the probie school, he has no idea what a set of "irons" are before going to school. The classes and "hours" may be longer then needed for someone who is in a volunteer system. The hours a volunteer learns things at the station does not count toward anything but he is still learning. Does a volunteer need to spend as long on a topic about how to don your protective gear when he learns this in house? Or on ground ladders and stretching hose, when this stuff is learned at the station. If he can complete the practical exam task so be it. Again JMO, and I'm going with my observation of probies in my Dept. they learn alot of "basics" without going into fires before they attend the needed schools. The hours of "in house" training don't count anywhere toward a standard.

When we have sent new employees to school, they get a week in-house before they go, they have alread worn SCBA, know about our job, and our equipment, etc. and those hours (40) don't count in their "training" either.

I know a lot of things have changed from when I was a volunteer, but as a vollie probbie, I learned that "hey kid, you don't need to know much....don't waste your time going to fire school" and when the bell rings dont worry about getting on the rig you will lose your seat at the bar. I took every class available to volunteers and when I was hired and went to the career accademy I learned that I had barly scratched the surface and I was in the top 90% of training hours.

[ex-commish 490]

Is there more that is needed for a new member?

Also it’s funny how things progress. In NFPA and OSHA, there is no mention of hours. It is you shall be taught and able to perform A,B,C, etc.

New York State took those and came up with two training levels, Volunteer and Paid.

Volunteer it is 15 hours initial and 8 hours annual (Yes those are the real numbers)

Paid it is 229 and 100.

These are drastically different and as such, Jim Burns pushed to have training changed when we went from the original training programs to the FF2000 (with testing (performance standard). When the FF 2000 came out, it was broken down into Basic, Intermediate and Advance to compromise. FF Basic only got you on a fireground, FF Intermediate an interior member and FF Advance a Leader?. Of course many places, Basic was the only thing used so again it was changed to the present which emulates NFPA and most of the rest of the country.

Hours are not the specifics as much as performance should be but you have to cover everybody and have course outlines as well.

If I am not mistaken the 15 and 8 hour you mentioned is not fire training. It is safety training which is required by PESH. The original Essentials covered the 15 hour part. Departments had to comply with the 8 hour refresher.I believe this still stands today. The joke about it is not only the time needed to but to satisfy the requirements there is no means of demonstrating what you have learned. All is required is you have to be shown the specifics topics.

[Bnechis 3,961]

You can call it a volunteer academy if you want, but I believe it is possible to be successful with separate standards. If the only way for the hard feelings to go away is parity in training for then that is what has to be done.

Its not about hard feelings. Its about being competent and qualified.

Who has your back? do you think a lawyer would have a paralegel represent him in court, what about a doctor...do you think they go to a PA for a personnel medical issue? Does the CEO of a corp. ask the mail clerk advise on running the company?

Does a career ff with 500+ hours of probbie school plus EMT, plus inhouse training want someone with 50+ hours backing him up? Most career FF's have nothing against volunteers...and in most states they are equal. When FASNY fought against 229 and 1st line supervisors along with FFI-III they laid the ground work for this problem. If FASNY fought for training and funding for training much of the vol vs career in NYS would go away.

Unless there is more involved then stated, it seems like the only state certificates received from this academy is FF I, FF II, Haz-Mat Ops, and FF Survival.

Thats a lot more than NYS requires for a volunteer, but close to what is required for career.

[ex-commish 490]

Does the CEO of a corp. ask the mail clerk advise on running the company?

After what has happened to corporate America maybe advice from the mail clerk isn't so bad....

[ladder55 26]

When we have sent new employees to school, they get a week in-house before they go, they have alread worn SCBA, know about our job, and our equipment, etc. and those hours (40) don't count in their "training" either.

I know a lot of things have changed from when I was a volunteer, but as a vollie probbie, I learned that "hey kid, you don't need to know much....don't waste your time going to fire school" and when the bell rings dont worry about getting on the rig you will lose your seat at the bar. I took every class available to volunteers and when I was hired and went to the career accademy I learned that I had barly scratched the surface and I was in the top 90% of training hours.

your right... alot has changed

[medic25 0]

Its not about hard feelings. Its about being competent and qualified.

what about a doctor...do you think they go to a PA for a personnel medical issue?

A little off-topic, but as a PA I've had plenty of doctors come to me for personal medical issues, and as far as I can tell they've been pretty happy with their care so far

OK, back on topic.....

[spin_the_wheel 460]

When we have sent new employees to school, they get a week in-house before they go, they have alread worn SCBA, know about our job, and our equipment, etc. and those hours (40) don't count in their "training" either.

I know a lot of things have changed from when I was a volunteer, but as a vollie probbie, I learned that "hey kid, you don't need to know much....don't waste your time going to fire school" and when the bell rings dont worry about getting on the rig you will lose your seat at the bar. I took every class available to volunteers and when I was hired and went to the career accademy I learned that I had barly scratched the surface and I was in the top 90% of training hours.

A volunteer can go months before the next "school" is held and will do much more then 40 hours before a formal school. Plus its 24/7 the opportunity to learn, the carrer guy is not responding to the station at 9pm on an alarm during his probie week, and as you know you can learn something new every run you go on, no matter how small. To a probie a milk run automatic alarm is an adventure. And you even said it "in the 40 hours he learns about our job, and our equipment"....so does the volunteer why can't he learn as much as well?

But hey we can go back and forth with this, it's a different culture on Long Island for better or worse however you look at it, love it or hate it. I can only state with 100% certainty the system I grew up with, it's still a strong volunteer system. And I also can say with 100% certainty, I never have been told don't get on the rig or you will loose your seat at the bar, and have never been discouraged from going to fire schools, and I go back to 1984 as an active f/f and years before that as an explorer and firehouse brat..

Edited June 1, 2009 by spin_the_wheel

[Bnechis 3,961]

your right... alot has changed

Not according to the state records and not from what I'm hearing from a lot of instructors.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

With a budget like that, I'd be surprised if you said otherwise.

It is what it is, I'm working in the system that has been handed to me, don't make me out to be the bad guy here, not everyone in "lidsville" is a bad guy.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Not according to the state records and not from what I'm hearing from a lot of instructors.

Again I guess trying to compare Nassau County to Westchester is apples and oranges, I admit I thought Westchester had a stronger volunteer base but I guess I was only looking at the Ossining's and Port Chester's.

[Bnechis 3,961]

and as you know you can learn something new every run you go on, no matter how small. To a probie a milk run automatic alarm is an adventure.

Yes you can and should learn something new on each run, but learning the right thing and reinforcing the wrong ones is a big problem. Retraining is a lot harder to do and I've seen that issue many times. I'm not sure I want it to be an "adventure". I want it to be learning, some explaining what went right and what went wrong, even on a BS A/A.

And you even said it "in the 40 hours he learns about our job, and our equipment"....so does the volunteer why can't he learn as much as well?

I didn't say he could not. You pointed out how much they learn before training and my point was we do the same.

it's a different culture on Long Island for better or worse however you look at it, love it or hate it. I can only state with 100% certainty the system I grew up with, it's still a strong volunteer system.

Long Island & Westchester are seperated by more than LI Sound. Westchester has not had a strong "system" in a long time and the "culture" needs to change. While it has in a few places, most are in deep trouble.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Again I guess trying to compare Nassau County to Westchester is apples and oranges, I admit I thought Westchester had a stronger volunteer base but I guess I was only looking at the Ossining's and Port Chester's.

58 Westchester Depts.

5 100% career (some still have vols, but they are no longer allowed to respond to calls)

7 primary career (most drimatically undermanned, but have even fewer vol responses)

5 primary vol w/ career "drivers"

41 100% volunteer

you mentioned the two largest as being strong, that leaves 39 that cover the spectrum.

Having worked as a medic in both communities I will agree that one of those depts has a very strong base, the other has a very large base. They are not the same.

[aacofd40 6]

I am a member of a combination department. Anne Arundel County - east of Prince Georges - has about 800 paid guys and a riding database of probably 1200 members. (do not mistake the riding database for members that actually ride apparatus) We have 40-odd stations of which half are all career (2 or 3 on an engine, 3 on a truck). We provide suppression, EMS (Paramedics are all career), and special teams (Hazmat, HEAT, Trench- also all career). Some stations have excellent volly-career relationships and ride the same apparatus. Others don't and have career apparatus and volley apparatus. One station goes so far as to have a paid-man soda machine and volley soda machine. Not kidding on that one.

To address the training:

The career guys go through a 6 month school that includes FF, FF2, Rescue Tech, and EMT. All are classes certified by our governing authority- Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute (MFRI) a part of the the Univ of MD. Vollies have to take the same classes, but you only need FF1 to ride an engine. The current FF1 class is 100 hours, FF2 is 60, Rescue tech is prob another 60, and EMT is 130. Add it all up, and it still does not come close to the career school. The best way to show is as a volley you prob spend 8 hours on ladders, while the career guys spend 5 days on ladders.

To address the side-by-side running:

At my station, we have 8 paid guys during the day, and 7 at night. The vollies are the 3rd, or 4th on the engine. very rarely is a volley on the truck. Trust and experience are required. Which is funny, because a career guy right out of the academy can be assigned to the truck.

Most of the paid guys are former vollies. A lot from the county, so for many it is a stepping stone. You get extra points on the test if you have volley experience, so we don't have the issue of getting paid for the same job and that being contentious.

Vollies have to be at the station, there is no going to the scene. We run a lot of calls (an avg of about 12-15 engine calls a day - mostly EMS and smells and bells), so you wear a uniform, you do what the officer says, you do housework, and you run calls. It works best when the vollies realize that they work for the career officer, and the career officer manages the vollie as he would one of the career staff. Some stations have volly officers (when you have enough vollies you are allowed to have LT, Capt, A/Chiefs). At our station we have a vollie chief only.

What makes it work(in my opinion):

- Call volume - we run a lot of calls, so everyone is busy and vollies stay interested. We don't run a tremendous amount of fire, but we run enough trauma, car fires, and EMS to keep things interesting.

- Lots of different stations - We have some (like mine) that is predominatly career. We have others that only have paid drivers and the rest are vollies. We have some that you have to wear a uniform, and other where they don't care. You don't have to live in the community where you vollie so you can pick a station that fits who you are.

- A realistic understanding of the enviornment. The career guys would like to see no vollies at all. They would also like to see 4 and 4 on the apparatus. Neither are going to happen anytime soon. The vollies want to "run" their stations and direct the paid guys and have approval of what comes in (personnel, apparatus), and that is not in the cards either. So you are left with a detente of getting along because you have to. And, for the most part, conflict, disagreement, and dislike are present, but on a call it all disapears.

Be Safe,

JR

[Raz 14]

Thanks for all that info AA

[16fire5 693]

It's been stated FASNY, the Association of Fire Districts, and Nassau County's Association of Fire Districts are opposing this for one reason some of their fifedoms are in danger. I can't see how this is bad for the taxpayer. Places like Nassau and Westchester have tons of duplication and more apparatus they they can staff in many departments. For the dedicated volunteer this will be good also. I would still like to see volunteers banned from being commisioners in the department where they volunteer. Teachers can't be on the school board where they work and career firefighters can't be commisioners where they work. I think if you had community people seeing the facts and not fighting change or making decisions based on the based on volunteer morale as opposed to protecting the community which they are sworn to do you would see career chiefs in many of these departments (Most communities in New England especially Mass. have career chiefs) and daytime staffing.

[JFLYNN 681]

your right... alot has changed

Please tell us what specifically has changed. As I mentioned a while back while posting on a different topic, I served as an adjunct NYS Fire Instructor for a few years, teaching primarily tech rescue. Although I enjoyed the opportunity I had to sharpen my own skills and meet new people, I stopped working for the state because most of the volunteers who took these courses had no business being there...they hadn't even mastered basic firefighting skills...many of these guys were Chiefs and Company Officers...IMO the average Proby graduating from a career academy had more firefightin ability than 90% of the volunteers I taught...and there was no mechanism to fail any of these people who showed up for the course...if you showed up and hung around, you passed...truly incredible!

I wonder in all the classes given to volunteer firefighters by NYS, what failure rate is? I'll bet it is less than 1/10 of 1%...

I gotta say, mostly a bunch of nice personable fellas though, so remember to QTIP please...

[helicopper 1,050]

To my knowledge the volunteers do not have to go through the same fire academy as the career firefighters. I am sure that there are people on this site that can speak more on the specific operations of the PGFD then I can. How can any volunteer commit to a four month, nine to five, five day a week academy? The answer is they can't. I do agree that there should be standards, but how can volunteers match the hours of training a career academy produces.

JBJ

Four months, 9-5 every weekday is only one possible schedule. Those who say it can't be done are poisoning the rest of us. As mbendel said, it just takes some creativity and imagination to come up with a plan to meet the training objectives with certified instructors.

And it isn't about whether or not you train in your house prior to, during, or after the "academy" or "basic training". That's GREAT and it should be standardized but the sad fact is if you have a laid back crew/chief/department you're not doing as much training as a progressive department so what do you get? Bad habits from people with questionable training in the first place. Is there any mechanism to train the "field training officers" so you learn the right things the right way?

Once you complete FF1, FF2, etc. what are the refresher requirements? Do you ever have to attend "updated" training? Correct me if I'm wrong but don't career FF have 100 hours in-service training per year?

I for one am tired of all the "we can't do this/that stuff". We most certainly can - we just need to try (and this is true of PD, FD, and EMS - not just this topic!).

[ladder55 26]

Not according to the state records and not from what I'm hearing from a lot of instructors.

what do you hear? that volunteers dont train?

[Bnechis 3,961]

what do you hear? that volunteers dont train?

Read JFlynn's post.

I stopped teaching fire classes after being told that if the student didn't want to go into the mask confidence course they didn't have to, just sign the card that they were present. It was suggested that maybe they would do it if we left the lights on or let them try it without the mask on there face.

I continued to teach the 15 hour hazmat ops course until I was told it had to fit into three 3 hour sessions and there was no need to test anyone.

I am sorry, there are a lot of fine people out there, many have the desire, but there are a lot of people who do not even know what they need to know to protect themselves, and the worst part is they do not realize that we have cut it down because if its to long someone might not become a volunteer. What kind of committement are we asking?

A good friend of mine was an active vol FF in westchester, was fully trained to FFII when he moved to another state. They told him that they would not accept NYS training as it was substandard. He just spent the last 5 months taking FFI in his new state.

[Guest]

Anybody who really reads the incident reports and pays attention to the time lines can only accept the inevitable establishment of a 'county' fire department much as the county has taken the lead on training and dispatch. When you look at the combined apparatus, for example, of two independent village departments I can think of, operating in one township, you have 9 engines, 3 aerials, 2 heavy rescue and four ambulances. We have cities without that much apparatus. Of course the farther North you travel the slower and more undermanned are the apparatus on response. A transition to a County based department will be a long time coming due to the tax consequences and the State has such enormous tax issues right now and for the forseeable future. But, when it comes, if the ranks of paid firefighters are filled by local volunteers waiting for career opportunities, friction within the ranks of a combination department, should it go that way, would be minimized.

[DCJPells 29]

If I am not mistaken the 15 and 8 hour you mentioned is not fire training. It is safety training which is required by PESH. The original Essentials covered the 15 hour part. Departments had to comply with the 8 hour refresher.I believe this still stands today. The joke about it is not only the time needed to but to satisfy the requirements there is no means of demonstrating what you have learned. All is required is you have to be shown the specifics topics.

Everybody calls it Safety training. This is the only NYS requirement that you will find for a volunteer to take. Anybody find anything else that is required by other than AHJ, please send me the law, standard, etc.

Yes FF1, FF2000 Basic, Essentials, etc covers the 15 hours and the 8 hours is what everybody calls OSHA training but I beg to find anyother requirements.

The 229 and 100 for Career is cited thru General Municaple Law (209-w), Executive Law (159-d) and NYS Code of Rules and Regulations (426).

[firecapt32 282]

Well i am happy to aanswer a few of the questions posted here-- NYS has taken steps to pre and post test students in most of their classes. As a State Fire Instructor. I can drop or dismiss students for almost any reason I see fit, including not passing tests, not doing the REQUIRED skills. Attendance is not THE requirement that it was years ago. Having taught a few of the "New" firefighter 1 classes, I have seen student enrollment in these classes drop from a start of 20-25 to a finish "certificate" firefighter 1 class of 10. The State is moving in the right direction--although slowly.

Having said all that --- "A" volunteer fire department can do almost any thing it wants. Certification is not mandatory in the State of New York for Volunteer Fire fighters .We are a AHJ state--- Untill such time as it becomes MANDATORY for all firefighters for training we will always have this problem.

Career firefighters are mandated by State law to have certain training when they get hired and are mandated by State law to have a certain number of hours of training annually.

So when we get off our asses and get some teeth put into the laws-- we are only spinning our wheels and pissing each other off on here.

hope that gets by the censors

[JFLYNN 681]

Well i am happy to aanswer a few of the questions posted here-- NYS has taken steps to pre and post test students in most of their classes. As a State Fire Instructor. I can drop or dismiss students for almost any reason I see fit, including not passing tests, not doing the REQUIRED skills. Attendance is not THE requirement that it was years ago. Having taught a few of the "New" firefighter 1 classes, I have seen student enrollment in these classes drop from a start of 20-25 to a finish "certificate" firefighter 1 class of 10. The State is moving in the right direction--although slowly.

Having said all that --- "A" volunteer fire department can do almost any thing it wants. Certification is not mandatory in the State of New York for Volunteer Fire fighters .We are a AHJ state--- Untill such time as it becomes MANDATORY for all firefighters for training we will always have this problem.

Career firefighters are mandated by State law to have certain training when they get hired and are mandated by State law to have a certain number of hours of training annually.

So when we get off our asses and get some teeth put into the laws-- we are only spinning our wheels and pissing each other off on here.

hope that gets by the censors

Hey Cap,

I appreciate your post. I believe you that things with NYS may be slowly moving in the right direction. I'm curious though, you mentioned a FF 1 class in which enrollment dropped from start to finish...were those who didn't finish dropped involuntarily from the class or failed out due to poor performance or did they just quit?

How many students who showed up for all the classes did not receive a certificate at the end because they were unable to meet the standard?

[robert benz 344]

Hey Cap,

I appreciate your post. I believe you that things with NYS may be slowly moving in the right direction. I'm curious though, you mentioned a FF 1 class in which enrollment dropped from start to finish...were those who didn't finish dropped involuntarily from the class or failed out due to poor performance or did they just quit?

How many students who showed up for all the classes did not receive a certificate at the end because they were unable to meet the standard?

John it is up to each instructor, how tough he wants to be, but it has gotten better, students are told they will be dropped for any of the above reasons, and by the first few classes the ones that cant make all of the classes (gee and they have the schedule before class starts) due to whatever reason are dropped. more and more get pushed to scene support if they cant meet the minimum requirements.

some drop the classes due to the schedule or the work, and some are dropped due to poor performance

[firecapt32 282]

chief

Some did not show up for skills that were to be done on a saturday, they were asked not to return. One or two just couldnt do the skill, they recieved scene support certificiates. Some scores on written teast were too low. students have been dropped because they havent had their mask fit testing or their physicals. As always Chiefs of departments were notified of these things.

The standards is the thing that will be the testing ground--if you cant meet the standard---no certificate/no exceptions.

The Instructors--and you know a few of us treat FF1 like a mini academy--books-homework-skills testing- written testing.

From the first contact with the students it is drilled into them--this is a dangerous business--if you cant do the skills you dont belong. If you want to be a firefighter pay attention and learn.

And above all i have used your phrase to them QTIP be prepared or be gone.

I am glad the State of New York has taken a strong position on Firefighter 1. The State is looking to for all firefighters to be Nationally Certified both FF1 and FF2 and offers National Testing during the year.

Although as stated before its AHJ so even if they drop out they can still be concidered a Firefighter in their department--just not certified by the State of New York.

Hope this answers some of your question Chief.

[JFLYNN 681]

chief

Some did not show up for skills that were to be done on a saturday, they were asked not to return. One or two just couldnt do the skill, they recieved scene support certificiates. Some scores on written teast were too low. students have been dropped because they havent had their mask fit testing or their physicals. As always Chiefs of departments were notified of these things.

The standards is the thing that will be the testing ground--if you cant meet the standard---no certificate/no exceptions.

The Instructors--and you know a few of us treat FF1 like a mini academy--books-homework-skills testing- written testing.

From the first contact with the students it is drilled into them--this is a dangerous business--if you cant do the skills you dont belong. If you want to be a firefighter pay attention and learn.

And above all i have used your phrase to them QTIP be prepared or be gone.

I am glad the State of New York has taken a strong position on Firefighter 1. The State is looking to for all firefighters to be Nationally Certified both FF1 and FF2 and offers National Testing during the year.

Although as stated before its AHJ so even if they drop out they can still be concidered a Firefighter in their department--just not certified by the State of New York.

Hope this answers some of your question Chief.

Thanks Cap and Bobby.

Coming from you guys, I believe every word and it seems like you guys are doing a great job (I would expect no less of course). I'm glad NYS seems to be moving in the right direction. It's a shame FASNY and certain individual volunteer departments keep standing in the way of rigorous. consistent standards which would apply to all Firefighters, career or volunteer.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Chief Flynn:

I can also attest to what FireCapt and Capt. Benz have said. I am one of the instructors who has had a class go from 22 students down to the number 10. The majority of this often occurs due to attendance attrition. Then there are those who cannot achieve the level of proficiency as outlined by OFPC policy and NFPA 1001 minimum standard requirements in skills and as stated testing. There are always a few who have wonderful intentions, give 125% but realize that they cannot themselves perform at this level. These are the ones that I often see returning in much better shape to follow their passion. It has gotten much much better. I can also say that we are backed 100% by OFPC and DES when the time comes that we must dismiss a student for testing or skills failure. Are there some that meet the bare minimum standard...absolutely. Is it frustrating..as all hell. I've experienced this in both volunteer education and my time with the career academy. Those are the ones I worry about...the upper tier and lower tier. The ones that think they have it in the bag and the ones who barely complete a skill. They often will fade when out of training due to what often appears to be a complete drop in department level training.

The only disheartening occurrence that we still deal with are departments that send students woefully equipped, sign off that they have had a physical and have been fit tested, yet the first time they put a mask on air leaks and then deny ever being hooked up to a computer or hooded to check mask fit. Often it equated to a negative pressure function test. Or flat out no physical was given and it is painfully obvious that the person is in no shape or has a disability that they should not be there but the auspices are put on us as instructors to do the dirty work.

Some of you better be careful with your comments or you'll be told you make every effort to give the volunteer fire service a black eye as well. Especially because many of you I know personally and are saying the same things I am. Guess its all in a name...lol.

[firecapt32 282]

Chief

We have come across a whole lot of fire department members that want to become FIREFIGHTERS and want to be good firefighters. To them it is worth the time that they put into their training.

As one of our instructors is fond of saying ,I cant excatly quote him for obivious reasons, if you want to be a firefighter stay in there and work hard, practice never let your training let you down, if not theres always the Elks club.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Chief

We have come across a whole lot of fire department members that want to become FIREFIGHTERS and want to be good firefighters. To them it is worth the time that they put into their training.

As one of our instructors is fond of saying ,I cant excatly quote him for obivious reasons, if you want to be a firefighter stay in there and work hard, practice never let your training let you down, if not theres always the Elks club.

I think I've hard that a few times...lol.