Fire District Consolidation Opposition

[Raz 14]

Adding my two cents to the IAFF vs FASNY debate, I've always seen it like this: The IAFF will be for every piece of legislation that will increase service to the community and improve safety and training, but if you want it, be prepared to pay for it. That's capitalism, pure and simple, and the IAFF is a labor union. I see nothing wrong with saying "You want that? Fine, here's the bill. If that's too much, look for another option."

FASNY, on the other hand, seems to be against every bill that will increase public safety, the safety of their members, and take power out of the hands of fire departments and place it in the hands of the people who bankroll them.

Hey all... I hate to dispel rumors especially when its getting so many people all fired up but the legislation is not limited to fire departments/districts. It applies to any local government entity - water districts, sewer districts, lighting districts, TOWNS, VILLAGES, and fire districts. Opposing this legislation doesn't insure the safety of the volunteer fire service, it insures that NYS retains more than 1500 special districts including countless duplicate ones.

THANK YOU FOR THIS.

Damn, I've never seen the truth get twisted so fast as I've seen with this bill. I just spoke to an obtuse "firefighter" who was livid because "Albany is trying to push a bill that would require paid departments every x amount of miles. They're trying to end volunteer departments!" Honestly, there's no use talking to these guys, they fall in lockstep behind anyone who says there's a threat against them. This kind of fearmongering by FASNY is sickening.

Given typical turn out for local elections, school districts etc - I don't think turnout is anywhere near 50%.

That's the thing, requiring the vote of "50% of all taxpaying citizens" is the same as writing "don't worry, it'll never happen." I think voter turnout in my town is something like 15-20%, and that's for mayoral elections. It's inconceivable to think that 50% would magically turn out to an election, regardless of how bad they're being fleeced. All this bill does is send a message to underperforming/overtaxing districts, saying "change or we'll make the change for you."

[Bnechis 3,961]

That's the thing, requiring the vote of "50% of all taxpaying citizens" is the same as writing "don't worry, it'll never happen." I think voter turnout in my town is something like 15-20%, and that's for mayoral elections. It's inconceivable to think that 50% would magically turn out to an election, regardless of how bad they're being fleeced. All this bill does is send a message to underperforming/overtaxing districts, saying "change or we'll make the change for you."

3. 17 If consolidation is approved by a majority of the electors voting

18 in each local government entity to be consolidated, certificates of such

19 result shall be immediately filed with the secretary of state and with

20 the clerks of the entities and county in which any part of the entities

21 is situated.

It says majority, I could not find 50% in the bill.

[Raz 14]

It says majority, I could not find 50% in the bill.

Apologies, I wasn't referring to the bill, I was responding to this post:

The funny part about this is that the machinery already exists in NYS law to change, disband, or merge fire districts. The current standard of more than 50% of taxpaying residents is too much for some politicians.

[ex-commish 490]

Perhaps one has nothing to do with the other but I find it funny that Andrew Cuomo and some state legislators are concerned about the cost of local governmen yet in the past they could never submit a budget on time and recently Lohud had an article about how much money the pension system is losing and taxes might have to be raised to cover the shortfall. Could this be simply a smoke screen?

[moggie6 54]

I"m sure it's already been said but i'll say it again....this bill is a good thing. It is not only for fire depts and districts but all types of goverment.

[JBJ1202 27]

I recently took a trip down to PG County in Maryland and had the opportunity to see first hand the "county combination fire department" that we all have heard so much about. Overall I think it is a great system and something I hope one day can be implemented up here. All of the concerns and issues have been thrown out there on this and many other forums, but one question I do not recall reading.

How would the career side of this combination fire department handle the possibility of working along side volunteers in a historically all career station and/or department? We always seem to focus on the volunteer departments improving their staffing by adding career firefighters. Isn't it possible in a large combination department to have an existing career department supplemented with volunteers also?

Example:

TODAY: The ABC Fire Department is a career fire department with no volunteer force. Current staffing is three engines and one ladder with two firefighters on each.

TOMORROW: The ABC Fire Department is now designated as Station ABC of a combination fire department and has the same amount of career staffing BUT now has volunteer force to help staff the three engines and one ladder with four on each.

I am just trying to look at all the angles here and hopefully will get some good feedback...

Thanks

JBJ

[dc2t 80]

How did the school districts get left out? Maybe Andy does not to want ruffle some feathers, or is there too big of a lobby. Greenburgh consolidated in the 1960's (hartsdale and central 7) schools and is there a great savings?

Edited May 31, 2009 by dc2t

[Goose 188]

Consolidation on any level of government in Westchester is a good thing. There is so much duplication of services and waste in every corner it's mind boggling.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

This could effect small paid or combo dept.s as well......if Dept. B has a combo Dept. 12 paid staff and 14 Volunteers and combines with Dept. A with a strong Volunteer system of 60 guys and Dept. C with a strong Volunteer system of 75...the combined new Dept. D may not need a paid staff anymore as you have introduced more men into the system.

Edited May 31, 2009 by spin_the_wheel

[Bnechis 3,961]

How would the career side of this combination fire department handle the possibility of working along side volunteers in a historically all career station and/or department? We always seem to focus on the volunteer departments improving their staffing by adding career firefighters. Isn't it possible in a large combination department to have an existing career department supplemented with volunteers also?

Example: TODAY: The ABC Fire Department is a career fire department with no volunteer force. Current staffing is three engines and one ladder with two firefighters on each.

TOMORROW: The ABC Fire Department is now designated as Station ABC of a combination fire department and has the same amount of career staffing BUT now has volunteer force to help staff the three engines and one ladder with four on each.

Most if not all of the large combo depts. fully staff career rigs and utilize volunteers on volly rigs. Do you think the depts. in westchester that have career, but are under staffing are going to wait till the volunteers show up? Many of the combo depts in Westchester started as volunteer, added "paid" drivers, then as the volunteers dwindled add a 2nd ff. Now in many cases they no longer have any volunteers but are still responding with 1 or 2 career ff's.

Also, if the volunteers are currently unwilling to do assigned shifts in the VFD, do you think they will want to do it when they are side by side with others who are getting paid to be there?

[Bnechis 3,961]

This could effect small paid or combo dept.s as well......if Dept. B has a combo Dept. 12 paid staff and 14 Volunteers and combines with Dept. A with a strong Volunteer system of 60 guys and Dept. C with a strong Volunteer system of 75...the combined new Dept. D may not need a paid staff anymore as you have introduced more men into the system.

Nice in concept, but I do not know of too many "strong volunteer systems" in Westchester. While many may have 60 - 75 on the roster, they are lucky to get a team on the field for a call.

[helicopper 1,050]

I recently took a trip down to PG County in Maryland and had the opportunity to see first hand the "county combination fire department" that we all have heard so much about. Overall I think it is a great system and something I hope one day can be implemented up here. All of the concerns and issues have been thrown out there on this and many other forums, but one question I do not recall reading.

How would the career side of this combination fire department handle the possibility of working along side volunteers in a historically all career station and/or department? We always seem to focus on the volunteer departments improving their staffing by adding career firefighters. Isn't it possible in a large combination department to have an existing career department supplemented with volunteers also?

Example:

TODAY: The ABC Fire Department is a career fire department with no volunteer force. Current staffing is three engines and one ladder with two firefighters on each.

TOMORROW: The ABC Fire Department is now designated as Station ABC of a combination fire department and has the same amount of career staffing BUT now has volunteer force to help staff the three engines and one ladder with four on each.

I am just trying to look at all the angles here and hopefully will get some good feedback...

Thanks

JBJ

Interesting question. I would speculate that if the training standards are the same for both career and volunteer, it shouldn't be that big of an issue. Looking at the big combo departments down south and in other places, it works so there is really no reason - except egos and attitudes - to prevent it from working here.

It would be incumbent upon the managment of the department to work out schedules and riding assignments. As Barry said, you could have first response career apparatus and secondary response volunteer apparatus or if the volunteers wanted to be scheduled for a shift in the same manner as a career person (that is there for an entire shift), they could be added to a first due piece.

There are so many more reasons to do this than not it is really disappointing to see the resistance.

Stay safe!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Interesting question. I would speculate that if the training standards are the same for both career and volunteer, it shouldn't be that big of an issue. Looking at the big combo departments down south and in other places, it works so there is really no reason - except egos and attitudes - to prevent it from working here.

It would be incumbent upon the managment of the department to work out schedules and riding assignments. As Barry said, you could have first response career apparatus and secondary response volunteer apparatus or if the volunteers wanted to be scheduled for a shift in the same manner as a career person (that is there for an entire shift), they could be added to a first due piece.

There are so many more reasons to do this than not it is really disappointing to see the resistance.

Stay safe!

Bingo!

Spin the Wheel:

Interesting concept and valid point. However while your adding more personnel ("men" as used by you)...you are also increasing the geographical area needing coverage. If one area found a need to have career staff in the system its hard to retract that. Plus with proper budgeting, the tax base could be used to further higher more career staff to enhance coverage.

As far as the comment about how would professional firefighters handle having volunteers come in. There is always that 10% on every side. However it would come down to a management issue...proper management would remedy the situation and like it or not everyone would have to learn to work together. You don't have to be friends..but you will have to work together. I came from a combo system and am familiar with areas of Fairfax County, VA who had a large combo system that volunteers in some areas supplemented the career staffing and in other areas the staffed career companies supplemented the heavily volunteer companies. How did it work...because the appropriate not only managers but leaders were promoted into the middle and upper management levels to make it happen.

[Monty 35]

How did the school districts get left out? Maybe Andy does not to want ruffle some feathers, or is there too big of a lobby. Greenburgh consolidated in the 1960's (hartsdale and central 7) schools and is there a great savings?

Supposedly because there is already a way to do it - and supposedly because of the 'new' system there have been many school districts that have already been combined. Looking to see if I was imaging stuff, I found this through google: http://www.oag.state.ny.us/bureaus/legisla...tion/about.html

Take for instance school districts. In 1947, a statewide Master Plan for School District Reorganization was enacted an although not a compulsory plan for reorganization, the Master Plan guided state level efforts to encourage reduction in the still-large number of school districts. The result was the reduction of the number of schools from 10,000 to less than 700 today.

[JBJ1202 27]

Most if not all of the large combo depts. fully staff career rigs and utilize volunteers on volly rigs. Do you think the depts. in westchester that have career, but are under staffing are going to wait till the volunteers show up? Many of the combo depts in Westchester started as volunteer, added "paid" drivers, then as the volunteers dwindled add a 2nd ff. Now in many cases they no longer have any volunteers but are still responding with 1 or 2 career ff's.

Also, if the volunteers are currently unwilling to do assigned shifts in the VFD, do you think they will want to do it when they are side by side with others who are getting paid to be there?

I failed to mention that the volunteers in this combination department would be doing assigned shifts. I do not expect the career staff to wait for the volunteers to show up. That being said I would expect strong opposition from these departments receiving volunteers to complete their staffing when a past all volunteer department is getting career members.

JBJ

[Bnechis 3,961]

I failed to mention that the volunteers in this combination department would be doing assigned shifts. I do not expect the career staff to wait for the volunteers to show up. That being said I would expect strong opposition from these departments receiving volunteers to complete their staffing when a past all volunteer department is getting career members.

JBJ

I think its a unrealistict to think the communities that have 1 - 2 career members currently on a rig will get volunteers to do shifts. Look at the current response from the volunteers in those communities now, they do not have enough to staff 1 rig during an emergency, much less 24/7 and most of those members do not meet the minimum standards for interior (for volunteers).

The bigger issue is the unions would fight for is the same minimum training standard for volunteers as career members, otherwise what go is having a body on the rig that cant do the job. I would rather be understaffed than have to deal with crew members who put my life and their's in danger, that means I have to work even harder to get the job done.

Until we have one standard for being a firefighter (like most states) it is unlikely you will see large combo depts.

[JBJ1202 27]

I think its a unrealistict to think the communities that have 1 - 2 career members currently on a rig will get volunteers to do shifts. Look at the current response from the volunteers in those communities now, they do not have enough to staff 1 rig during an emergency, much less 24/7 and most of those members do not meet the minimum standards for interior (for volunteers).

One thing that I see in these combination departments is that living in the vicinity of the station is not necessary. You have people from all coming to volunteer shifts at these stations. A person's residence is not an issue when they give a certain amount of the time to the firehouse. So in theory communities with little or no volunteer base would still be able to provide a few volunteers. These communities would no longer be asked to provided manpower for an entire department but simply enough to help staff a piece of apparatus.

The bigger issue is the unions would fight for is the same minimum training standard for volunteers as career members, otherwise what go is having a body on the rig that cant do the job. I would rather be understaffed than have to deal with crew members who put my life and their's in danger, that means I have to work even harder to get the job done.

Until we have one standard for being a firefighter (like most states) it is unlikely you will see large combo depts.

This is something that I did not get the opportunity to discuss in detail with the career men on my visit down to PG County. Rigs down there can be all career, combination, or all volunteer... but they all rely on each other. If volunteers aren't on the same rig as the career personnel they most likely will be on the next rig to pull up. How does such a large system work so well without a minimum training standard for all firefighters?

JBJ

[firefighter36 52]

It looks as though the key component that we are looking at here is training. Having two different standards for personnel is not fair to either side. Why would we want to shortchange anyone? With equal training standards for both career and volunteer personnel, along with a solid, well defined chain of command and policy and procedure manual, I believe we can have a system like PG county up our way.

With that, some things need to happen. We are fire and EMS personnel need to buy into the plan. We need to play nice in the sandbox with our counterparts, no matter how much it hurts, and really work to ensure its success. Current county level figures and department heads need to adjust to what could be a change in job description, and the right people will need to be put at the helm of the ship. I guarantee you that this change has the potential to make some upper echelon "managers" (commissioners, chiefs, coordinators, political appointees, etc.) uneasy or downright pissed off. The public needs to have faith in both the system, as they will be footing the bill. Knowing NY taxpayers, I doubt they would fund something like this willingly, so it is important that the fire service delivers a superior product, or else it can all backfire miserably before it ever gets going.

As for the actual legislation in Albany, I think it is completely bogus and a disservice to the taxpayers of NY unless it includes ALL special districts, especially school districts. In research, I have found "garbage collection districts," "lighting districts," etc. I think in addition to consolidation of public safety or schools, one thing our state and counties need is an INFRASTRUCTURE UPGRADE. i.e. Water, Sewer, Lighting, Etc. the myriad of special districts that exist not only means tons of funneled tax dollars, it means that a great deal of our state remains without basic infrastructure, as in no municipal water or fire hydrants! How much more effective could our county or metro fire and rescue service be with patent water supplies?

[Raz 14]

Everybody's main complaint about the bill is the lack of school district inclusion. In my opinion, not including school districts was the greatest idea to come out of this. Let's crawl before we walk, here. School districts have the biggest issues facing their dissolution, so I'm glad that we can give this bill a shot at passing without involving the myriad of problems that including them would bring. It would've torpedoed the bill before it had a chance to get going. We can always revisit the issue after proving how much tax money could be saved by consolidating other districts.

[helicopper 1,050]

One thing that I see in these combination departments is that living in the vicinity of the station is not necessary. You have people from all coming to volunteer shifts at these stations. A person's residence is not an issue when they give a certain amount of the time to the firehouse. So in theory communities with little or no volunteer base would still be able to provide a few volunteers. These communities would no longer be asked to provided manpower for an entire department but simply enough to help staff a piece of apparatus.

This is something that I did not get the opportunity to discuss in detail with the career men on my visit down to PG County. Rigs down there can be all career, combination, or all volunteer... but they all rely on each other. If volunteers aren't on the same rig as the career personnel they most likely will be on the next rig to pull up. How does such a large system work so well without a minimum training standard for all firefighters?

JBJ

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Does Maryland have two different standards for firefighter training? One for volunteers and another for career?

My concern is that there will be vast differences in training without a single common standard for "firefighter". No distinctions for interior, exterior, etc.; if you're a firefighter you have all the training to do the job.

As for the school districts, I like Raz's point. Let's see if we can organize the political subdivisions that make up 15-20% of the tax base FIRST and then attack the school district problems. The issue may not be the dissolution or consolidation of school districts but rather the enforcement of some common sense limits on their taxing ability. School taxes where I live have had double digit increases every year. The student population hasn't exploded, teacher contracts haven't given them double digit raises so why the huge increases every year?

[DCJPells 29]

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Does Maryland have two different standards for firefighter training? One for volunteers and another for career?

My concern is that there will be vast differences in training without a single common standard for "firefighter". No distinctions for interior, exterior, etc.; if you're a firefighter you have all the training to do the job.

This is what you have in NY now. To the point that the NYS Department of Labor has two different standards. One for career and another for volunteer.

Also many places have the different status of Interior and Exterior as well as Fire Police, EMS, Administration, etc.

[JBJ1202 27]

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Does Maryland have two different standards for firefighter training? One for volunteers and another for career?

My concern is that there will be vast differences in training without a single common standard for "firefighter". No distinctions for interior, exterior, etc.; if you're a firefighter you have all the training to do the job.

To my knowledge the volunteers do not have to go through the same fire academy as the career firefighters. I am sure that there are people on this site that can speak more on the specific operations of the PGFD then I can. How can any volunteer commit to a four month, nine to five, five day a week academy? The answer is they can't. I do agree that there should be standards, but how can volunteers match the hours of training a career academy produces.

JBJ

[firefighter36 52]

JBJ, I watch plenty of police recruits with no promise of employment commit to a 6 month, 9-5, M-F training academy up here with few reservations or issues.

In New Jersey, the career and volunteer brothers sit next to each other in the academy, because it is the same.

I don't think that higher standards for training are out of the question. I think it takes outside of the box thinking and scheduling, as well as a commitment to higher standards on behalf of the departments, and a willingness to learn and make some sacrifice on behalf of the member. Lets not forget what pool a majority of combination departments hire their career members from.....

Edited June 1, 2009 by mbendel36

[Raz 14]

To my knowledge the volunteers do not have to go through the same fire academy as the career firefighters. I am sure that there are people on this site that can speak more on the specific operations of the PGFD then I can. How can any volunteer commit to a four month, nine to five, five day a week academy? The answer is they can't. I do agree that there should be standards, but how can volunteers match the hours of training a career academy produces.

I did it. Then I went out and got my EMT cert. Then I passed the civil service test. This is why I don't respond well to most of the times when people cry foul when it comes to training.

[robert benz 344]

To my knowledge the volunteers do not have to go through the same fire academy as the career firefighters. I am sure that there are people on this site that can speak more on the specific operations of the PGFD then I can. How can any volunteer commit to a four month, nine to five, five day a week academy? The answer is they can't. I do agree that there should be standards, but how can volunteers match the hours of training a career academy produces.

JBJ

I know we are not in FLA but unless it has changed you had to go to school, get certified as a firefighter prior to joining any career dept.(volunteer too?) Vol have gone thru the fire academt at Montour Falls along side career firefighters, if there were openings.

So what are you saying "but how can volunteers match the hours of training a career academy produces" are the career firefighters over trained? FF-1 is a joke, not enough hours , yet the powers that be wont admit that. The system is flawed.

Volunteers can get the same training, same hours it will take much longer and a training system must be put in place. But so long as the "ITS TO LONG NOW" sentiment is allowed to run the show there will be 2 different standards, with all the hard feelings along with it.

[DCJPells 29]

http://www.co.hanover.va.us/fire-ems/training/tacademy.htm

Enough said!!!

[spin_the_wheel 460]

http://www.co.hanover.va.us/fire-ems/training/tacademy.htm

Enough said!!!

The last paragraph does state "volunteer firefighters graduate with the minimum requirements for volunteer firefightres" so...are there 2 sets of standards?

[DCJPells 29]

The last paragraph does state "volunteer firefighters graduate with the minimum requirements for volunteer firefightres" so...are there 2 sets of standards?

You can take that at face value if you want. I do know a little about the County as I have been in contact with them before. The city of Richmond will hire someone who has the Hanover Couty Volunteer Training Academey because it meets the standard for career personnel.

Other areas that I know that there is one standard, Kansas, Ohio.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I only posted that because I know how reporters and newspapers get things wrong all the time.

One other thing...JMO I think to much is made over the "hours" of the courses, when it should be the tests and the practical exams. A career F/F does not set foot in a firehouse in most places untill he finishes the probie school, he has no idea what a set of "irons" are before going to school. The classes and "hours" may be longer then needed for someone who is in a volunteer system. The hours a volunteer learns things at the station does not count toward anything but he is still learning. Does a volunteer need to spend as long on a topic about how to don your protective gear when he learns this in house? Or on ground ladders and stretching hose, when this stuff is learned at the station. If he can complete the practical exam task so be it. Again JMO, and I'm going with my observation of probies in my Dept. they learn alot of "basics" without going into fires before they attend the needed schools. The hours of "in house" training don't count anywhere toward a standard.

Edited June 1, 2009 by spin_the_wheel

[JBJ1202 27]

I know we are not in FLA but unless it has changed you had to go to school, get certified as a firefighter prior to joining any career dept.(volunteer too?) Vol have gone thru the fire academt at Montour Falls along side career firefighters, if there were openings.

So what are you saying "but how can volunteers match the hours of training a career academy produces" are the career firefighters over trained? FF-1 is a joke, not enough hours , yet the powers that be wont admit that. The system is flawed.

Volunteers can get the same training, same hours it will take much longer and a training system must be put in place. But so long as the "ITS TO LONG NOW" sentiment is allowed to run the show there will be 2 different standards, with all the hard feelings along with it.

CAN'T is a strong word that I should not have used. It will make it more difficult to become a firefighter with those standards. It's not like we are trying to reinvent the wheel here. Some of these departments have the same standards for volunteers and career, and other have separate. I am not a member of either and cannot comment on the quality of firefighter these departments have. And yes...FF I should be longer, it is not too long already Capt. You can call it a volunteer academy if you want, but I believe it is possible to be successful with separate standards. If the only way for the hard feelings to go away is parity in training for then that is what has to be done.

http://www.co.hanover.va.us/fire-ems/training/tacademy.htm

Enough said!!!

Unless there is more involved then stated, it seems like the only state certificates received from this academy is FF I, FF II, Haz-Mat Ops, and FF Survival.

JBJ