Trooper & Medic Fight-Caught On Video

[abaduck 123]

An idea that will never catch on: inter-agency ride alongs. Police on fire & EMS, fire on PD & EMS, & EMS on PD & fire. I did that many years ago in REMO. WOW! The police were great in polietly pointing out that I had no clue about their work. And they saw that they weren't EMS and want no part in it. I was a volly firefieghter, so never did a cross service ride there.

THAT is the most constructive idea to come out of this thread.

Perhaps I've been a bit outspoken at times on this thread, I admit - one thing I think we would all agree on, *no-one* in that video was looking particularly professional, and anything that can help us get a better insight into each others jobs can only be a good thing.

[JetPhoto 626]

Yet, some agencies can't get it thru their head that if the patient isn't on fire, get the truck outa the way. And yes, that is in Dutchess County. UpStae, unfortunetly, everyone thinks they are the medic until they are holding a corpse, then they call me and expect me to fix it.

I agree 100%

An idea that will never catch on: inter-agency ride alongs. Police on fire & EMS, fire on PD & EMS, & EMS on PD & fire.

Also for those who constantly bash dispatchers, see if you can get a tour and spend a few minutes with them, it will give you a whole new outlook on what they do on the other side of the radio.

[Oswegowind 17]

I'm confused...did they un-arrest him? Because it looks like everyone goes their separate ways in the end...also looks like they pulled over...wouldn't that be yielding? I must be missing something, but it looks like people just can't get along which is no surprise and to do this in the company of everyday people was completely wrong! The officer should have followed the ambulance to the hospital and let them get rid of the patient, emergency or not, and then addressed the condition. Sorry Chris and JCESU, but I think it was completely unprofessional, whether it was just to confront them for not yielding earlier or not, and not just on the police officers. I have a feeling if the ems personnel had remained in the vehicle and accepted whatever summons or lecture the OHP officer deemed necessary that it could have gone smoother. And if the EMS personnel disagreed with the incident they could have brought it to a supervisor and gone to see a police supervisor and straightened it out later. There are way too many EGO's out there, and not enough people that have the ability to walk away. Hopefully this is the last time I see something like this!

[Guest EFFP411]

The point of view from the dash cam gives a little bit of a different perspective than the phone video previously posted. The incident that this officer was responding to didn't appear to be life or death seeing as how he left in such a short time, and he seemed to have quite a temper. There is absolutely no reason for something like this to happen in the presence of patients of family members.... it should have been saved for the hospital parking lot or for supervisors to straighten out later.

[abaduck 123]

Hmmmm. I'm not a cop, or an EMT - so I have no expertise, just common sense, but also no axe to grind.

A few points occur to me:

1. There was allegedly an assault on the officer by the paramedic; I saw none in this clip. I did see the officer assault the paramedic.

2. Everything the cop did after he was informed there was a patient transport in progress was wrong. The professional thing to do would have been to say 'take care of your patient and get the hell out of here now; we can take this up at the hospital'.

3. Everything the paramedic did after he had informed the cop there was a patient transport in progress was wrong. The professional thing to do would have been to say 'I have a patient, their needs come first, period. I'm leaving NOW. Take this up at the hospital if you like'. Just left, and not got into a useless argument with a cop.

4. There was some discussion earlier in this thread about 'resisting arrest'. Sometimes 'resisting arrest' is resisting arrest, and sometimes it's legitimate self-defence against an unprovoked assault. Calling the assault an 'arrest' doesn't make it less of an assault.

5. The fact that we're even having this discussion about a scene involving a cop, a paramedic, and a patient *sucks*. It appears everyone in uniform on the scene forgot who the most important person was - only the civilians remembered that little detail. What does that say about professionalism?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

If you thought that the first video was bad then this second was even worse for the officer.

I really hope that the final outcome is really scathing for this officer and his department because his actions is a reflection on OHP and his actions were not only deplorable but also inappropriate and unnecessary.

Not only was the ambulance crew acting appropriately but the officer over reacted and potentially endangered the patient....

[helicopper 1,050]

4. There was some discussion earlier in this thread about 'resisting arrest'. Sometimes 'resisting arrest' is resisting arrest, and sometimes it's legitimate self-defence against an unprovoked assault. Calling the assault an 'arrest' doesn't make it less of an assault.

On this point, in the cell phone video the uniformed trooper twice states "you're under arrest" to the paramedic before he exits the ambulance. He takes his wrist (probably to handcuff him) and the paramedic physically resists and pulls away. This is resisting arrest, this is illegal, this is how people get hurt or killed! There is NO time when it is legitimate to resist a uniformed officer who has informed you that you're under arrest.

The choke "hold" (not one that I've ever seen taught) is another matter entirely but to assert that this was an unprovoked assault is not completely accurate. Could someone argue that it was unnecessary and/or excessive, absolutely!

Again, the bottom line is that the whole situation sucks and is bad for everyone. I'm not condoning the troopers actions. I'm just surprised at the number of posts that state it is OK to resist arrest.

[FirefighterJr 2]

If anything it seems like there was a car infront of the ambo and the ambo was waiting for that car to yield saftely out of the way before the ambo could.

[abaduck 123]

On this point, in the cell phone video the uniformed trooper twice states "you're under arrest" to the paramedic before he exits the ambulance. He takes his wrist (probably to handcuff him) and the paramedic physically resists and pulls away. This is resisting arrest, this is illegal, this is how people get hurt or killed! There is NO time when it is legitimate to resist a uniformed officer who has informed you that you're under arrest.

<snip>

No, no... I'm talking about the first physical contact, when the trooper assaults (not arrests, assaults) the paramedic as he's explaining he has a patient aboard at 03:05 in the *dashcam* video. At that point the trooper loses all authority. At that point the trooper arguably commits the crime of assaulting a paramedic in the performance of their duty - which, as the paramedic reminds him later, IS a crime (felony or misdemeanor, I don't know) in that state. The paramedic would (very) arguably even have been justified in performing a citizens arrest on the trooper at that point (although he would have been an integral idiot to try). He's certainly justified in defending himself against further aggression, whether under the colour of arrest or not.

I'm sorry but the more I see, the worse it looks for the blue team; I didn't see a trooper there, I saw a jerk in a uniform as the aggressor in a road rage incident. And again, I have no axe to grind, I don't take any pleasure from saying it - I just call it as I see it.

[crcocr1 8]

No, no... I'm talking about the first physical contact, when the trooper assaults (not arrests, assaults) the paramedic as he's explaining he has a patient aboard at 03:05 in the *dashcam* video. At that point the trooper loses all authority. At that point the trooper arguably commits the crime of assaulting a paramedic in the performance of their duty - which, as the paramedic reminds him later, IS a crime (felony or misdemeanor, I don't know) in that state. The paramedic would (very) arguably even have been justified in performing a citizens arrest on the trooper at that point (although he would have been an integral idiot to try). He's certainly justified in defending himself against further aggression, whether under the colour of arrest or not.

I'm sorry but the more I see, the worse it looks for the blue team; I didn't see a trooper there, I saw a jerk in a uniform as the aggressor in a road rage incident. And again, I have no axe to grind, I don't take any pleasure from saying it - I just call it as I see it.

Regretfully, the New York Legislature, through the New York Penal Law, disagree with you. They've abolished the right to self-defense against an otherwsie unlawful arrest in Section 35.27. It states, in relavant part, " a person may not use physical force to resist an arrest, whether authorized or unauthorized, which is being effected by a police officer." If the arrest is unlawful, you would need to dispute it in criminal court and commence a cause of action (lawsuit) in civil court.

Edited June 14, 2009 by crcocr1

[moggie6 54]

This comes back to who's in charge, who's on first, and whats on second? Which trumps which in ny? I know the police always win in the street, as the penal law has said. But what is the ruling when we are actively administering paitnent care? Does DOH law over rule penal law? Or is this just one case where things got way out of control.

[crcocr1 8]

This comes back to who's in charge, who's on first, and whats on second? Which trumps which in ny? I know the police always win in the street, as the penal law has said. But what is the ruling when we are actively administering paitnent care? Does DOH law over rule penal law? Or is this just one case where things got way out of control.

Unless the Public Health Law has a provision directly on point, the Penal Law controls. Most of the DOH rules are REGULATIONS, which have a lesser effect that an actual statute or law.

[STAT213 332]

Regretfully, the New York Legislature, through the New York Penal Law, disagree with you. They've abolished the right to self-defense against an otherwsie unlawful arrest in Section 35.27. It states, in relavant part, " a person may not use physical force to resist an arrest, whether authorized or unauthorized, which is being effected by a police officer." If the arrest is unlawful, you would need to dispute it in criminal court and commence a cause of action (lawsuit) in civil court.

And, when you stop and think about it, this is completely terrifying. I am sure the law was written with good intent. But, to HAVE to submit to an unlawful order and an out of control officer of the law is well, terrifying.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

And, when you stop and think about it, this is completely terrifying. I am sure the law was written with good intent. But, to HAVE to submit to an unlawful order and an out of control officer of the law is well, terrifying.

Agreed 110%.....

[ny10570 745]

Officer was absolutely an a** from get go, but it still doesn't excuse the medic. Its the classic two wrongs don't make a right. After he informed the officer that there was a patient that they were transporting he should have been back with his patient and on the radio calling for another bus to take the patient. Let the officer dig his own hole since there is nothing you're going to say or do that will get a pissed off jackass to change their mind.

[helicopper 1,050]

And, when you stop and think about it, this is completely terrifying. I am sure the law was written with good intent. But, to HAVE to submit to an unlawful order and an out of control officer of the law is well, terrifying.

STAT, on the out of control part, I agree. Having since watched the dash-cam video, I am at a loss for any explanation for the troopers conduct. It was ridiculous though as NY10570 stated, two wrongs don't make a right and the medic didn't help the situation any.

That said, with regard to resisting arrest, it is the rare case when the arrestee doesn't believe that he/she is being falsely accused and that the arrest is unauthorized. The law needs to clearly establish that if you're wrongfully accused, there is a an administrative and judicial redress for you. To authorize one to resist the police on the street would be just as terrifying and result in many more injuries and fatalities. If you believe you're wrongly accused you have the ability to defend yourself in court and the presumption is always in your favor. This is a remarkable country in that regard!

Let's face it, this case is egregious and the trooper does nothing to promote the image of law enforcement BUT it is the rare case. There are literally millions of arrests every year that occur without incident or fanfare and police officers by and large act with tremendous restraint and self control. This is an exception not the rule. We're all only human and despite our best efforts, sometimes things like this happen. It' still a better option than having no police or robots with no emotions out there!

[INIT915 1,119]

And, when you stop and think about it, this is completely terrifying. I am sure the law was written with good intent. But, to HAVE to submit to an unlawful order and an out of control officer of the law is well, terrifying.

Actually, it makes perfect sense, because without it, EVERY, and I mean EVERY person who is legitimately being arrested will violently resist, with the explanation, "Oh, I didn't feel this was a legitimate arrest." You want chaos and anarchy, as that is the alternative. As Chris192 says, for cases such as the one before us, there are recourses. Administrative, Civil, and if warranted, Criminal.

[Goose 188]

I watched the liveleak video...i'm not really sure where the ambulance failed to yield. Once it got around that car (we all know ambulances can't stop on a dime, so it appears getting ahead of that vehicle was the right call) it pulled to the shoulder. Or, am i missing something?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Question:

If you believe that an arrest is illegal, without merit or not legitimate can you request their supervisor to the scene to either back-up the officer or refute the arrest?

If an arrest is later found to be illegitimate what resources do you have at your disposal and what recourses do you have?

[crcocr1 8]

Question:

If you believe that an arrest is illegal, without merit or not legitimate can you request their supervisor to the scene to either back-up the officer or refute the arrest?

If an arrest is later found to be illegitimate what resources do you have at your disposal and what recourses do you have?

I will leave your first question to the boys in blue on this thread who are better able to answer it. My simple response is you can request anything you want but you must submit to the arrest, legitimate or illegitmate.

Insofar as redress,

1. Person can file an Administrative (Internal Affair Bureau) Complaint with the Department (No Damages, Possible Reprimand, Suspension, Termination if Egregious but Unlikely)

2. Person can file a Complaint with the District Attorney for Criminal Charges (Unlikely unless the case is particularly egregious)

3. Person can hire an attorney to seek a civil action against the Police Department and the officer in a professional and individual capacity. There are a few (very few) legal services agencies and public interest law firms that won't charge if the case is particularly egregious. Otherwise, you will need to retain a private attorney to pursue the cause of action.

In answering this portion of your question, I should note that an arrest will be found to be illegitimate AFTER you avail yourself of these three options, not vice-versa.

Edited June 15, 2009 by crcocr1

[JetPhoto 626]

Back to the topic, I see News 4 NY finnaly had a story on this.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Officer.com Home > Top News Stories

Dash-Cam Video Released in Scuffle Between Oklahoma Trooper, Paramedic

Posted: Tuesday, June 16, 2009

Updated: June 16th, 2009 10:46 AM EDT

By SEAN MURPHY

Associated Press Writer

OKLAHOMA CITY --

Bothered that an ambulance driver failed to yield to him as he raced to provide backup on a call - and angered further when he thought the driver flipped him an obscene gesture - state Trooper Daniel Martin decided to stop the ambulance and give the driver a piece of his mind.

What Martin didn't know then, his lawyer said Monday, was that there was a patient in the back of the ambulance.

"He's not this ogre, this depriver of people's rights," the trooper's attorney, Gary James, said. "He's a good man."

[TCD0415 26]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/23/oklahoma....nded/index.html

(CNN) -- An Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper was suspended Wednesday for five days without pay following a highly publicized scuffle with a paramedic in Okfuskee County in May, according to the Highway Patrol.

West also said Martin had "probable cause to make the traffic stop and justification to arrest the paramedic for obstructing a police officer" but that the incident "resulted in conduct unbecoming an officer."

Edited July 23, 2009 by TCD0415