Croton Fire Dept. Tanker Drill FYI

[Remember585 815]

No pics in this post, yet.

On Saturday, May 30th, the Croton Fire Department will be conducting a tanker drill. The drill will take place at the site of the old Hudson Institute at 2016 Quaker Ridge Road in the Town of Cortlandt. It will begin at 08:00 hours with units staging at our Harmon Firehouse. If anyone is interested in watching and/or taking pictures, and even providing feedback, PLEASE LET ME KNOW ASAP.

Participating agencies include:

Croton FD (All units)

Ossining FD (E99)

Millwood FD (T15)

Yorktown FD (T14)

Briarcliff FD (E94)

Continental Village FD (T11)

Somers FD (T16)

Pleasantville FD (T57)

Pocantico Hills FD (T12)

Bedford Hills FD (T5)

Again, if you are interested, please let me know ASAP. I will give you directions and an idea of where to park, etc.

[Remember585 815]

Well, the drill went fairly OK today. More info tomorrow. Here's a few of "Onlocation's" photos. Thanks to all of the Departments for participating.

Ossining E99

Croton E118

Croton E119

Croton E120

Croton T10

[Remember585 815]

More pics from JT Camp / Onlocation:

Croton TL44 in the air working while BHFD T5 makes a drop.

Bedford Hills T5

Pleasantville T57 and Continental Village T11 making drops

Briarcliff E93 fills Pocantico Hills T12

Millwood T15

[Remember585 815]

More pics from JT Camp / Onlocation:

Somers T16 and Yorktown T14 dropping off

Pleasantville T57 (Old BHFD T5) and Bedford Hills T5

Croton R18 and Croton EMS 55B1

[Guest alsfirefighter]

585....just out of interest what was your average GPM flow and over what timeframe. I know when doing the Water Supply Ops course we shoot for a 1000 GPM's for 10 minutes.

[Bnechis 3,961]

585....just out of interest what was your average GPM flow and over what timeframe. I know when doing the Water Supply Ops course we shoot for a 1000 GPM's for 10 minutes.

Interesting time frame. very few depts have the ability to apply 1,000 Gpm in an interior attack and what happens in 11-20 minutes if the flow is not maintained ?

The ISO standard is 250 gpm for 3 hours. after the 1st 10 minutes they will credit each increase of 250 gpm, but must also maintain it for the 3 hours.

Most depts fail the test in the 1st 15 minutes. if they get past that they do fine. In the real world if you fail the 1st 15 minutes you will need the flow for the net 3+ hours, because you are going to only save the fondation.

[Remember585 815]

ALS,

I am still calculating all of our numbers, I'm hoping to have them figured out in the next day or two.

More info and pics on our Department website.

www.crotonfd.com

Thanks again to JT Camp for the photos and to the Bedford Hills, Briarcliff, Continental Village, Millwood, Ossining, Pleasantville, Pocantico Hills, Somers and Yorktown Fire Departments for participating as well as Verplanck and Ossining FD for covering us during the drill.

[KRF178 49]

Somers T16 and Yorktown T14 dropping off

After a long discussion at work with MoFire24....This is probably going to wind up being a stupid question but felt we needed to ask it anyway.

Keep in mind this comes from a guy from a city with hydrants and whose knowledge of tanker ops can fit on the head of a pin. What is the purpose of the length of hard suction between the two pools? Our guess was that if one pool is going to overflow that it will overflow into the other pool.

[Bnechis 3,961]

After a long discussion at work with MoFire24....This is probably going to wind up being a stupid question but felt we needed to ask it anyway...... What is the purpose of the length of hard suction between the two pools? Our guess was that if one pool is going to overflow that it will overflow into the other pool.

Close. The porta tank on the left (closest to the pumper) is the primary pond, the right is secondary. Generally they hold around 3,000 gallons. Ideally 3 or more ponds are set up. If you only had 1 and filled it with your 1st tanker (then it goes to get refilled) you would have about 5 minutes of attack @ 500gpm (the last 500 gal or so can not be drafted). Now the 2nd tanker is waiting for you to almost run out of water befor it dumps. The chances of running out of water are greatly reduced the more tanks you have. Also by emptying the ponds (except the primary) you have empty tanks for immediate drop when the next tanker arrives.

Once you have multiple tanks you need to be able to transfer the water from them into the primary tank. This can be done a number of ways:

1) The hard suction has a ventury device added to the tank to be transfered from, a 2 1/2" charged line from the engine (or sometimes a portable pump) forces the water from one pond to the other (most common, and as seen in the photo).

Ways to make this more efficent include using a special lowlevel strainer with a built in ventury (Kocheck makes it) and using a ball (beach ball or basket ball, as seen in the pic) to fill in the whirlpool and prevent the loss of suction.

2) 1-3 siphons can be used (6-8" PVC pipe shapped like an omega can be filled and used to move the water (cheap, but not as effective)

3) Some tanks have tubes on them that can connect together (at ground level) to move the water. Its hard to keep 1 full instead of 2 at 1/2 and also if 1 tank breaks you lose everything. A lot of places have tried this, but not generally dont use it.

4) Direct use. With a properly designed engine one can have up to two 6" and two 3" suctions (preferably preconnected as squarl tails) and drop a 6" in tanks 1 & 2 and both 3" in tank 3, then the pump operator just opens and closes valves. It works best if the strainers are designed for low level use and if they have foot valves on them to prevent loss of prime. Also then you are not "wasting" 250 gpm per tank of transfer; i.e. 1,500 gpm pumper in #1 above is using 250 gpm to move water from on pond to another , making it a 1,250 gpm pumper, add another tank and its now a 1,000 gpm pumper. (Very Very effective, best method for effective use of water and improved ISO rating).

#4 is the way to go, but your rig needs to be set up to do it, and I have not seen that done in the north east. The south & west are decades ahead.

5) Another method is to use a hydraulic transfer pump. I'll have to remember to bring that to CFD next time. We have one that will move 800gpm down to 2" of water for 8 hours on a tank of gas.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I wanted to thank Chief Munson (Remember 585) for the invite. This was a well organized drill and it was impressive to see the turnout from about 11 departments. I know everyone learned something and this will help at the next fire.

Most of the areas that can be improved were discussed at the hot wash back at CFD’s station.

Issues for this drill are no different from any tanker operations in this region. They include; type and design of apparatus, the fill site(s), the dump site(s) and the system.

Apparatus:

Engine companies (used to fill tankers and to draft and supply the attack line/engine) and tankers. The biggest problem with the engines (at both the fill sites and the porta tanks) is they were designed as structural pumpers for hydrant areas and not to do what was being asked of them. This slowed the setup and required a fair amount of manpower that could then not be committed to firefighting. As I mentioned in my previous post the engine at the dump site should be equipped with squirrel tail suctions (as should those at the fill sites). The engines at the fill sites need to have a mix of outlets (multiple 2½” and 5”) in the front and rear of the apparatus, side discharges were difficult if not impossible to use, since they were on narrow roads that required traffic to pass (particularly tankers to pass to turn around). The reason for front and rear discharges is they allowed (at on site) for 2 tankers to fill simultaneously. More important was that one tanker could start to hook up without waiting for another to disconnect and drive away.

Nationally (and internationally) I am starting to see some very specialized apparatus for use at the fill site. These units are smaller and designed to get multiple drafts and have faster fill times. The often have front, rear or even remote hydraulic pumps (similar to what I mentioned in the previous post. They can deliver 500-2000gpm up to 200 feet vertically &/or horizontally from the power supply). This is something to consider in ones long term planning. Another trend is top filling and has been done by both specially designed apparatus and portable systems that we could simply use here. Top filling dramatically reduces fill times and personnel needed at the fill site, since there are no hoses to connect to the tanker. Other issues at the fill site included hose set-ups to accommodate the many different tanker fill systems.

Tankers

Tankers are generally categorized as Tanker/Pumpers, Pumper/Tankers or Tankers (without pumps, none of which were used here).

Tanker/Pumpers are defined as a vehicle that is primarily a tanker but does have a 750-1500gpm pump and some hose and generally only have seating for 2 or 3. I consider the following rigs to be Tanker/Pumpers: Croton FD (T10), Continental Village FD (T11), Pleasantville FD (T57), Somers FD (T16) and Yorktown FD (T14)

Pumper/Tankers are defined as a vehicle that is primarily a pumper but generally has a 1,500 – 3,500 gallon tank and often (but not always on older tankers) large capacity dump valves. These units are designed to perform as either an attack engine or a tanker. I consider the following rigs to be Pumper/Tankers: Millwood FD (T15), Pocantico Hills FD (T12), and Bedford Hills FD (T5).

Both types of units were used, but they do the job differently and we will consider their use under systems.

Issues with all units:

1) Lack of adapters for filling.

2) Lack of large tank indicator lights (so everyone can see the status of the tank), consider retrofitting.

3) Consider adding back-up cameras and “reverse control” backup assist system (new product developed by LAFD).

4) Have policy that the driver stays in the drivers seat (at both fill & dump) to much time wasted.

Dump Site

An additional porta tank (minimum of 3) should be set up (if space permits. Consider using LDH supply line to move the drop site further from the attack if it will reduce the amount of maneuvering / backing up that the tankers have to do. Also adding large reflective numbers to all sides of the tank help identify them and reduce tanker driver delays.

System

First and most important issue is lack of standardization. While each rig maybe perfect for its department, effective tanker operations function much better when all tankers fill the same, dump the same and fill/dump at the same rate. These items speed up the process and reduce the amount of personnel needed on the water supply side (we have not dealt with the fire yet). Which size is better; 2,000, 3,000 or 3,500 gallon?...This is the usual debate. What we really need to consider is not size, but flow what is the GPM? If you have a 2,000 gallon tank that takes 10 minutes to fill, drive 1 mile then dump you have a 200gpm tanker, if you have a 4,000 gallon tank that takes 20 minutes to fill, drive 1 mile then dump you have a 200gpm tanker. If the 2,000 gallon tanker can do it faster or the 4,000 is slower, then the smaller tanker is better in the relay.

Pumper/Tanker vs. Tanker/Pumper. Which is better? It depends on how they are used. I strongly believe and tests (particularly the ISO water supply test) have proven that going to dump operations too soon is a problem (and we saw that at this drill, when the attack engine lost water about 10-15 minutes into the drill). If you respond with 1-2 engines and 1-2 tankers to a fire alarm, you should arrive with 4,000 - 9,000 gallons of water, if you can’t knock down the fire with that much water, you probably have already lost the building.

Using a pumper/tanker as your attack vehicle or an attack pumper that drops an LDH supply line with a clappered siamese and having the tanker pumper supply it (this works particularly well with long narrow driveways, where the tanker can stay out in/near the road). Put all of your resources into attacking the fire and have the next 1-2 tankers just feed the clapper. Have the 2nd Due Engine (supply) & mutual aid tankers respond and then set up the porta tanks for the long haul. I have also seen depts. use a manifold rig up the driveway with the clappered supply line.

Having a GIS fire based (not commercial based) mapping would also be very helpful. Along with a written preplan for water supply locations. Preplan your drafting sites, number & sign them. Then place in a book (along with issues like how much hose is needed, draft height, fence or other obstacles, etc), that all mutual aid companies have. Then you simply have to tell them, go to draft site #26. Very simple and everyone can find it.

It was also obvious that getting rigs on the correct radio channels is still an issue.

I look forward to seeing the flow rates and times.

Again a great effort by the Croton Fire Dept. and the mutual aid companies.

[Monty 35]

Excellent recap of the drill. Certainly not something most of us practice too often - but every once in a while it's needed.

Good to see more multi-department drilling.

Certainly some ideas to float around and discuss for SOP's (Seems from the few tanker operations I've been to, that using more LDH and moving the water supply could indeed help). My company is used to hydranted area's - if you ask 90% of the guys how to connect different hoses with adaptors there'd be a lot of head scratching!

I wanted to thank Chief Munson (Remember 585) for the invite. This was a well organized drill and it was impressive to see the turnout from about 11 departments. I know everyone learned something and this will help at the next fire.

Most of the areas that can be improved were discussed at the hot wash back at CFD’s station.

Issues for this drill are no different from any tanker operations in this region. They include; type and design of apparatus, the fill site(s), the dump site(s) and the system.

[ltx17 19]

the link posted below from Mechanicsville MD FD puts on paper some the points in the last post of bnechis

http://www.mvfd.com/content/water/

[Remember585 815]

I wanted to thank Chief Munson (Remember 585) for the invite. This was a well organized drill and it was impressive to see the turnout from about 11 departments. I know everyone learned something and this will help at the next fire.

You're welcome! We appreciate your input as well as any input others have to offer.

Engine companies (used to fill tankers and to draft and supply the attack line/engine) and tankers. The biggest problem with the engines (at both the fill sites and the porta tanks) is they were designed as structural pumpers for hydrant areas and not to do what was being asked of them. This slowed the setup and required a fair amount of manpower that could then not be committed to firefighting. As I mentioned in my previous post the engine at the dump site should be equipped with squirrel tail suctions (as should those at the fill sites). The engines at the fill sites need to have a mix of outlets (multiple 2½” and 5”) in the front and rear of the apparatus, side discharges were difficult if not impossible to use, since they were on narrow roads that required traffic to pass (particularly tankers to pass to turn around). The reason for front and rear discharges is they allowed (at on site) for 2 tankers to fill simultaneously. More important was that one tanker could start to hook up without waiting for another to disconnect and drive away.

E119, which was at the Quaker Ridge Road fill site, was using it's LDH discharge off the rear as well as a discharge on the side. The LDH discharge on the passenger side pump panel would have been perfect, however the cotter pin on the control wheel's arm to the valve broke off, putting it out of commission for the drill. The MPO put an adapter on a 2 1/2" discharge to use 5", so they had two seperate feed lines set up and were filling two tankers at a time fairly well.

[Bnechis 3,961]

the link posted below from Mechanicsville MD FD puts on paper some the points in the last post of bnechis http://www.mvfd.com/content/water/

Excellent website. Well done. Should be required reading for everyone without hydrants

[ltx17 19]

Excellent website. Well done. Should be required reading for everyone without hydrants

here is another one out of hunterdon county nj on tanker strike teams(small incidents) and task forces(large incidents)

http://www.18fire.org/tankertf.php