Westchester County Trunked System

[ems-buff 81]

So with this 476.2375Mhz in my trunked scanner. I can hear all of the south zone?

[SteveOFD 176]

Ems-buff, by entering only the CC you will not be able to monitor the South Zone. First you have to have a scanner capable of tracking analog trunked systems. Second you will have to program all the frequencies of the South Zone posted in the Communications forum. Third you will have to program the base/spacing/offset listed in post #22 above. It is a bit more complicated than programming conventional freq's., but you have to play with it and get used to the programming. Once the system is operational you will need to program individual talkgroup ID's, otherwise you will hear all users on the system including BeeLine buses.

[SteveOFD 176]

Driving through Yonkers today, confirmed that the Dunwoodie GC tower is transmitting with a CC of 476.2375Mhz. The signal is not that strong East of the Bronx River Parkway.

[ONLOCATION 24]

With all the Upgrading in the County with the Communications Systems, Can anybody Tell Me which 46.26mghz Repeaters are up and any new ones that have been added and up and running?

[SteveOFD 176]

For Westchester Co. repeaters check out this thread Westchester Repeaters

[ems-buff 81]

Third you will have to program the base/spacing/offset listed in post #22 above.

About thoses Bases, Spacing Ect.. Does each frequency Have on of thoses or are the two stated above will work for all.

[SteveOFD 176]

From what I understand if you enter both sets in your scanner's' settings that is all you need. You do not have to enter them for each freq.

[RWC130 594]

Westchester County has had to bump the power down so low don't even think you will be able to use a Portable and in some spots a Mobile will have problems. Hopefully someday more towers will go up.

I have to give A LOT of credit to Westchester County DES they have hit WALL after WALL with this system but.... It's going to happen!

The "City of New York" was NOT helpful.

Edited February 17, 2006 by RWC130

[SteveOFD 176]

RWC, Where did you hear they had to limit the power output? From the FCC's website both WQDW263(North Zone) and WQBR539(South Zone) the power outputs have not changed. The following are the outputs for the two licenses:

Bedford - 100 watts

North Salem - 110 watts

Ossining - 50 watts

Peekskill - 50 & 110 watts (3 freq's each)

Pound Ridge - 110 watts

Yorktown - 80 watts

Port Chester - 25 watts (old PC Hospital site closed, new site TBD)

Valhalla - 60 watts

Yonkers - 80 watts

If I recall correctly some of the antennas were required to be directional to limit interference to existing licensees. The system was not designed primarily for portable usage, that would be 8 Fireground freq's. The system is primarily for response and communications to Dispatch.

[RWC130 594]

Heard it right from the cow's mouth!

PM me if you want more information.

[cas2383 22]

With the final implementiaton of the new system, will the UHF 46.26 (i.e. mohegan, poundridge, katonah) repeaters be useless or are they an integral part of the system somehow somewhere?

[vwwh1 0]

Sounds like some of you may have good knowledge of this system. Now I am asking about the westchester system specifically. Can someone tell me how this system works. I have spoken toa High ranking WCDES employee and as far as I am informed. each dept will recieve a mobil radio for each veh. (though some with like 50 utilities won't) and 3 portables.

The system is a trunked system. the tones will still be dispatched over 46.26 and then communications with control will be on this system. Now the question. How does the IC speak with the men? I understand that each portable is like 5g's does each dept. have to go and purchase radios that work on this system. and are how do they talk to firefighters/fireground? what if the chief is not there...how can the IC speak to control? they have to have a trunked radio also? will IC's be walking around with 2 radios..one for control and one for fireground....that is the jist I actually got...that is in a word REDICULOUS...I hope i am misinformed...otherwise it appears the county bought another lemon like the computer system back in the 80's. Also..when the hell is the county going to have an information session on this....to explain the system....after it is implemented?

[tbendick 27]

How does the IC speak with the men?

Fireground communications will not be on the trunked system, that is what the 8 UHF Fireground channels are for. This is done for a few reasons, one main thing is Safety. Less chance for a problem with simplex point to point fireground then someone trying to talk into a repeater system.

I understand that each portable is like 5g's does each dept. have to go and purchase radios that work on this system. and are how do they talk to firefighters/fireground?

Each front line unit will have a mobile radio installed by the county. Fireground radios are purchased by the Department not the county. Fireground is on the 8 UHF channels not the trunked system.

what if the chief is not there...how can the IC speak to control?

You can talk from the mobile radio in the rigs. How the trunked portables will be assigned I don't know, that would probaly be up to the Depts needs.

will IC's be walking around with 2 radios..one for control and one for fireground....that is the jist I actually got...that is in a word REDICULOUS...

Yes there is a need for two radios. One of the problems now is that too much fireground stuff goes over 46.26 and clogs it up. Fireground goes on the 8 uhf and communications with 60 and incomming units goes over the trunked.

This is the way most departments work, Aides would come in handy in these situations. The aide monitors the trunked radio and talks with 60 and the chief/IC talks on Fireground with the members.

Last I heard, if a Dept wanted to go out and purchase 20 portables to be used on the trunked system, 60 might not allow them on the system. If you ended up with Dept's trying to use the trunked system as a fireground system it will end up causing problems.

[SteveOFD 176]

Was up in the North East corner of the County today and confirmed that the North Salem tower is operating with a CC of 470.575Mhz. This means all four county owned sites are now up and running for testing.

[Guest]

Another question, Is it just mobile and portables or do base dispatch station's get radios also ?

[SteveOFD 176]

The original RFP I read was that all dispatch points (FD & PD) would get base radios. Hospitals and the BeeLine bus bases would also get base radios. I read that the buses were included for two resaons, one being they would need to be coordinated for evacuation puposes, and the second that the Feds. would fund a major portion of their piece or the system (approx 1/2 the price of the total system).

[Shantz02 0]

Anyone know when "Radio Bulletin 3" is going to come out? There were supposed to be four of them about this system and its been a long time since the second one came out.

[exmrvfc 0]

The County has put a radio update on the agenda for the DES monthly meeting that the chiefs go to. Hopefully this include some new info.

To answer VWWH1 : The County is supplying a system to be used between the IC and incoming apparatus, 60 Control and other units as needed. All fireground communications between the IC and for example, the search team, are to be done on one of the 8 assigned UHF frequencies. If a department does not have UHF they can continue on another frequency such as VHF if they are already on it. This is not recommended as they may not be able to communicate on the fireground with mutual aid departments. If a department does want to go to UHF portables they DO NOT need trunkable portables. They only need the less expensive non trunkable portables ($1000 approx). They can buy any brand they want like VMFD did and buy close to 80 portables. The system is designed to clear up fireground comms so you don't hear tones and other transmissions while tring to talk on the fire scene.

[SteveOFD 176]

Exmrvfc, I couldn't have stated it better myself. That's what the new system is all about.

[vwwh1 0]

can the county supplied radios have the 8 uhf freq. in them also...or is it only for trunked....and if so this is ludicris....how can anyone think this system is good if a chief or IC will carry and listen to 2 radios...they CANT'T and that thought of an aide...this isn't NYC and no paid dept. in westchester (maybe YFD) has the manpower to have someone be an aide and i can't see it happening in a vol. dept. either. Next, what if you go to a call and there is no officer and you are the IC. How do you talk to 60. You would need the ablility to talk on the trunked system. and no one knows who might be the senior FF at the scene at that time..so does everyone get one?...why can't they make it so that all portables have the ablility to talk on the trunked system if the switch (don't know the technical term) that was used to switch between repeater or not repeater use was used and if switched off would use a fireground frequency.

correct me if wrong...but if a dept. had a simple system in which all portables had 6 frequencies and a repeater in the trucks. when they talked port. to portable it was on a fireground freq. (switch off) and the IC would then flip the switch on and would then be working through the repeater and could now talk to 60. Each portable could do the same but the FF's left their port. switch off so they only talked on fireground but heard both fireground and 60. this system is great.if they went to another dept. they just changed to the next fireground freq. the only downfall is that 46.26 was used for more than just IC stuff. Why not just fix the system simply...this is retarted. Please tell me how a simple fix has come to this and how is this going to be better...yes there won't be the confusion on 46.26 as now....but you are adding a whole second radio now for fireground...don't use a rube goldberg contraption to catch a mouse...the county seems like they can't do Anything right without screwing it up.....simple NOT COMPLEX

[nwsafetyguy 11]

vwwh1 - I just wanted to say there are Volunteer Fire Depts where the Chief does carry 2(two) portables currently. Here in Mt. Kisco the Chiefs carry 2 portables, one is a uhf portable with the 8 Fireground Freq. in it and the other portable they use to talk to 60 Control and responding rigs on 46.26. Once the new trunking system is up and running, the 46.26 portable will be replaced with the new trunking ones.

If a Chiefis switching between 2 or more channels, there is a very good possiblity that he might miss an important message, which could endanger his FF's. If he is monitoring the fireground, how does a responding in rig as him for directions etc? and if he is on the rig frequency, and a FF on the fireground puts out a mayday, he wont hear it.... In the interest of FF safety, 2 radios are needed. Wheather its 2 portables, or the Chief stays near his vehicle and one is a portable and the other is his cars radio. He only need the second portibles, if he doesnt want to be tied to his vehicle.

What to do if there is no chief on the scene, well then the person acting as the Offier would have to use one of the rig trunk radios to talk to 60 or other rigs, and just carry a fireground portable.

[vwwh1 0]

I agree..but the current or old system that I described..the chief has one radio and uses it on one channel...can hear both control and fireground....when transmits...if switch in one position..then it is only fireground..and only fireground radios hear the message...if the switch in other position....then it goes out over a repeater and both fireground portables recieve and control...best of both worlds..and one radio...and simple....how can you hear 2 seperate radios at same time? can someone tell me if they could have done the same thing with the trunking system..instead of the switch turning the radio on to the repeater...couldn't they do the same where it now changed it over to the trunking system.....or why didn't they just utilize the repeater system and if they got more freq. and did the simple thing as it was supposed to have been set up....tones only on 33.96 and another freq. and then dispatch communications on 4 freq. set up by battalion and then the other 6 as the fireground.

Sorry...not very knowledgable in the tech. of radios...but just seems this new system is not the best way to go.

[nwsafetyguy 11]

I'm not sure what you mean.. are you saying that the fireground ops should be on the same freq. as 60 control amd the rigs? I dont understand what you mean by flipping the switch.. If you are talking about 2 different channels, but using the scan feature on the radio, so you can monitor both channels, that puts the chief in the same situation, no radio can monitor 2 channels at the same time... so the I/C will miss messages.... If you are talking about using one channel for both the rig and fire ops.. thats not safe either... Rig radios are more powerful then portibles.. so if a rig is asking for instructions, and a FF on a protable trys to give a mayday.. no one will herar it because the rig radio has more wattage then a portable....

Its not impossible to monitor to radios at once...

These trunking systems are used nationwide in all different sized departments... and they work...

I personally feel that switching to the trunk system will greatly improve communication throughout the county... but it will be a learning experinces for all of us..

[vwwh1 0]

no..the system i was refering to. you do not use more than one channel...and you do not speak on both freq. There is a repeater in the truck...I know Hartsdale uses this system so if someone knows this system they can explain it...the have portables on a fireground freq. and if they want to talk to control they can then go thru the repeater and it goes out over 46.26. if all depts. had just switched to this type of system (had each their own fireground) and the county had switched the depts. off 46.26 and broken them down to batt. each on a different freq. (.14, .26, .42, etc or switched to the UHF freq.) then it would have worked and not cost very much. Tones only over 33.96 and 33.06...I hope someone who knows a lot about these systems will enlighten me.

Thanks for the reply's

[nwsafetyguy 11]

But when the repeater in the truck is off, how does 60 Control or other rigs call the chief? since he can only talk to 60 when the repeater is turned on?

[SteveOFD 176]

We had repeaters in our apparatus (3 Chiefs and 3 Engines), they never worked properly. The problem with repeaters is you can only have one repeater operating at a time. If you have more than one operating on the fire scene, when a portable keys the repeater function all repeaters will receive and retransmit at the same time. This is like keying two or more radios at the same time. The coordination it takes is just not worth the problems, especially when it hits the fan, you don't need to try and figure out whose repeater will be turned on and whose will be turned off as you are trying to coordinate all the incoming resources.

[vwwh1 0]

they make repeaters that shut down all but the first one on scene...master and slave system so you don't have the problem you describe

[tbendick 27]

vwwh1,

The system you are referring too is exactly what the county is trying to advoid.

There are two ways to acomplish what you are thinking of.

FDNY EMS has Channel one setup as Citywide (Repeater) and channel two Command (Simplex) both are the same freq. Units on scene switch too channel two and can talk to each other. The IC switchs to channel one and can talk to the dispatcher and units on scene will also hear this. Sounds great right? Problem now is when something goes wrong on scene and units are trying to talk to each other and someone on the other side of the city is talking to the dispatcher now the units can no longer talk.

Second system is the Rig repeaters in use today.

Fireground radios are setup on the 8 channels. Rig has a lowband radio on 46.26 linked to a UHF repeater. When the repeater is turned on ALL radio traffic on 46.26 gets broadcast over the UHF channel. The FF's talk to each other on simplex and the IC also talks on simplex, but the IC's radio has another PL tone in it. Could be on another channel, Zone B, etc. When the IC talks the FF's will hear it but it also keys up the repeater and it goes over 46.26 as well. Sounds great also. However when a FF goes down and now maydays are being giving, some dept is sending out tones which now steps all over your maydays.

There are many ways around this problem.

Have a trunked portable radio in the first due rig. Yes still two portable radios.

Have the trunked radio linked into the PA. You can hear 60 calling and walk over to a rig.

Have a trunked radio near the pump panel. Pump operator can monitor.

How about putting together a command post setup. I see dept's like yonkers and New Rochelle using them. Place the command post board on the first in rig. Then work with the County to come up with a post radio like the one FDNY has started to use. A 40 Watt mobile in a suite case, works very nice. Now the person who is acting as the IC can remove these two items and setup a small and quick command post.

These are just some of my ideas.

[ff026 0]

ok just wanted to weigh in on this one.

1st my background... radio tech for 5 years... back ground in communications... working on the committe for rocklands new system.

2nd not to pull a "hey we are better than you" but in rockland all dept's use UHF fireground. the county has 6 low power UHF offsets licensed. on all UHF radio's they are the 1st 6 channels, after that you can do what you want. TAC 1 is the vehicle repeaters. TAC 2-6 are the fireground channels. all dispatching and pre arrival takes place on lowband and all fireground takes place on UHF. all pump operators/drivers have there own radio's and most trucks carry an additional 3 radio's. all chiefs and officer's have there own radio's. most chiefs if not all have rear mic's and speakers in the rear area of the car to talk to 44 control. like i said all fireground is on UHF and tranmissions to control and responding units is on low band.

we use multiple low band cahnnels upon a large incident or prolonged incident. all vehicle repeaters must have "1st man out priority" that is the ability and logic circuts to turn each other on and off. my dept use's the repeaters as 2 ways. one way is if there is no chiefs car on scene the officer or driver of the 1st rig(if there is no officer) can use the repater to talk to control, or they have the driver pump operator relay the messages and answer over the truck low band radio. the second way we use the Vehicle repeaters is as an emergency tool. all of our radios are either HT750's or Officers have HT1250's. if there is a mayday situation and they cant be heard on the fireground, and need to be heard by 44 control they member can do 1 of 2 things. either turn the channel selector all the way to the right or left to use the vehicle repeater channel or press the ORANGE emergency button and the will be taken to the vehicle repeater channel.

now as far as using your existing portables on your new system or all trunking portables for fireground radios remember a few things. there is a NFPA guidline warning of not using 3 things for fireground point to point communications. 1) use analog only transmissions, 2) use SIMPLEX non repeated frequencies, 3) use conventional SIMPLEX non trunking Frequencies.

i forsee when the rockland system is built out that most departments will keep there existing radio's in the trucks for fireground. all mobile radio's will be trunking MOBILES with pump panel mic and speakers. all chiefs and officers will have trunking portables. the channel layout will have to be changed to accomodate the use of the fireground channels and the trunking system in the radios. ex: physical channel on on a trunking radio would be Dispatch on the trunking system and physical channel 2 would be tac 2 low power fire ground, physical channel 3 on a trunking radio would be say command and physical channel 4 would be tac 3 low power fireground. on non trunking radio's in place of the trunking channels you could have blank unprogrammed channels.

im sure your committe an vendor have thought of these contigencies and are waiting till the system is ready to be used and turned over to start coming out with guidlines to reprogram radio's.

[vwwh1 0]

ffo26...the system you are speaking of in rockland now is similar to the one i described...first..why are they changing it...it seems to work and work well in rockland...and why can't they just do the same thing with a trunked system....? will need to have a trunked portable for each apparatus in case there is no officer and now the IC (chief or officer) will need 2 radios...I can't see how this is progress. Sorry if sounding a bit negative..just seems to be going backwards..not forward...

to get back to tbendick...yes...the firefighter portables do pick up all radio traffic from control..which definiatly is a problem..but if the county just fixed that problem by switching all dispatch tones to 33.96 and then divided up 46.26, 14, 42 and the other freq. we have into battalions than that would limit the depts. on the same channel. This alone should have been done a LONNNGG time ago. Tones on one freq. and dispatch on another....and fireground on another...